House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Nov 1993

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Mr. Raymond S. Robertson (Aberdeen, South) : The hon. Gentleman is waxing eloquent about joint boards and joint arrangements, but his party's paper, "The Future of Local Government", says :

"In a limited number of cases it will be necessary to examine joint arrangements. In different circumstances police, fire and water and sewage services may require these joint arrangements."

Mr. Robertson : We know that there will be hordes of those arrangements, not only those that I have mentioned but many more. Joint arrangements already exist in certain areas. However, the sheer multiplication that will be involved in the reorganisation, with tiny councils buying in services, makes everything else pale into insignificance.

I thought perhaps that the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson), whose roots remain firmly in the central belt, might have enlightened us about events in the Greater Glasgow health board. I will come on to that in a moment, because that is extremely relevant to what we are talking about. More and more boards and committees will be packed by more and more Conservative cronies.

Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) : My hon. Friend mentioned the year 1994. Is he aware of a rumour that is running around the Welsh media that the Secretary of State for Wales is to announce this evening a delay of 12 months in the proposals? Will my hon. Friend take the opportunity to press the Government on whether there is any truth in that rumour?

Mr. Robertson : My hon. Friend will have noticed that the Secretary of State for Wales scarpered off quickly and, who knows, he may be now holding a press conference. However, that is a relevant question, and I hope that Ministers will rise to dispel that rumour. At least in Scotland-- I say this for the Secretary of State for Scotland--we know precisely what the timetable is to be. Welsh Members on both sides of the House have a right to know the timetable for reorganisation in Wales. I will give way to the Secretary of State for Scotland if he wishes to comment on the matter. The right hon. Gentleman may have been spending so much time rehearsing Welsh place names that he has not got round to asking any real questions to do with Welsh reorganisation.

The Secretary of State for Scotland has addressed the question of the lack of co-operation of local authorities in their own execution. The right hon. Gentleman and I appeared on BBC Scotland's "Upfront" television programme last week, and the Secretary of State was asked penetratingly by Ms Kirsty Wark why he was not abandoning next year's regional council elections. The Secretary of State's reply was very interesting. He said that they could not possibly pre-empt the will of Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman implied that the Government do not know whether regional councils are to be abolished, and therefore the Government could not take such pre-emptive action. Yet the Secretary of State expects councils in Scotland to conspire and co-operate in their own demise before even they know precisely what the form of local government will be at end of the process.

Mr. Lang : I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for intervening again, but I am sure that he would not want to mislead the House. The point I made was that the legislation could not pass through Parliament before the date when the regional elections were due to take place. If the hon. Gentleman gives me an assurance that the

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Opposition will assist in the early implementation of the legislation, the way would be clear to move on those regional elections.

Mr. Robertson : The answer is no. There will be no co-operation in the early implementation of a reorganisation that can only cause chaos and which is purely bound up with the political purposes of the Scottish Conservative party.

It is interesting to note that decisions cannot be taken about regional elections, but apparently everyone else must assume that the Bill will go through in the exact form that is proposed by the Government.

The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : The hon. Gentleman has delved into Welsh matters. In view of what he has said, why is the Welsh Labour party in favour of the unitary principle?

Mr. Robertson : The answer is that we want to create assemblies in Scotland and in Wales. A parliament or assembly would have the right to decide on the best way or reorganising local government. That is the way to do it, and not in the gerrymandering fashion that is proposed.

I am sure that Welsh colleagues will find it interesting beyond belief that the Minister can stand up to make such a debating point, but he cannot inform the House what the time table for local government reorganisation is in Wales. [Hon. Members :-- "They've had 14 years."] Fourteen years is surely plenty of time to think up an answer. I cannot help thinking that the Secretary of State for Scotland's training in the Footlights at Cambridge could have been more useful, and perhaps he could give some lessons to his colleagues in the Welsh Office in slick footwork.

Democracy is in question because of the incredible proliferation of jobs and more jobs for the Tory fair-weater friends. No more sinister evidence could we have of the implications of that Tory non-elected state than events within the Greater Glasgow health board in the past few weeks. A top official in the largest health authority in Great Britain is summarily dismissed in his absence after he has allegedly questioned the level of expenses claimed by his chairman--the Secretary of State's golfing friend, whose business has just gone into receivership.

The dismissal of that chief executive reaches the ears of Ministers not through any formal channel but by means of a press release from the Greater Glasgow health board. The Minister who receives the press release is said to be furious at it. Two weeks later, that top official, who was so bad and so useless in his job that he had to be instantly dismissed in his absence, is found a new, unadvertised, senior and extremely well-paid job with the Minister's own National Health Service Executive. Then the very man who dismissed him, and who will now not face the legal action that the dismissed official said that he intended to take, tells us all how wonderful the original chief executive was and how complimented he is that he has been found a job inside the national health service.

Nobody, but nobody, answers questions--not the chairman of the Greater Glasgow health board, Mr. Bill Fyfe, not the Minister, Lord Fraser of Carmyllie, not even the golfing friend of the chairman, the Secretary of State for Scotland. Public money is spent ; jobs are lost and suddenly found ; reputations are damned and then

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resurrected. "Back to basics," the Government say, their tongues in their cheeks and their hands in their wallets. They tell us all to go back to basics.

I shall ask the Secretary of State for Scotland some pointed questions, but, before doing so, I remind him of the words of the Secretary of State for Wales in the House of Commons only a few weeks ago :

"Everyone who operates in the public sector has a clear responsibility to be scrupulously correct in all his or her dealings and to be seen to be above reproach."--[ Official Report, 19 October 1993 ; Vol. 230, c. 148.]

So I ask the Secretary of State the following questions. Why was Mr. Lawrence Peterken sacked? Why was that dismissal instant? What had he uncovered or suspected about Mr. Fyfe's expenses? Who was on the audit committee which cleared Mr. Fyfe of the reported allegations? Did Mr. Lawrence Peterken agree with the decision taken by the audit committee? Was the decision to dismiss Mr. Peterken taken unanimously by the Greater Glasgow health board? Was the job offer at the national health service executive made conditional on the dropping of any legal action against the Greater Glasgow health board ? Why was the job of special projects manager at the national health service executive not advertised? How many other jobs have been made in that department without any advertisement?

I ask the Secretary of State those questions because they are serious. The public in Scotland, in line with what the Secretary of State for Wales rightly said, deserve answers to them. There is no other forum than Parliament in which to seek the answers. There is no means by which the taxpayer can question the Greater Glasgow health board other than through the Cabinet Minister who appoints the people who run the board. The Secretary of State is due, in all conscience, to give an answer to those questions to the House. They are important questions. Only Ministers can give answers to them. But perhaps Parliament will have to take more measures to seek answers. Today, I have written to the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee of the House to ask whether he too will investigate the circumstances in the Greater Glasgow health board. Where public money and public duties are involved, Parliament is the only custodian of the public interest and the Secretary of State for Scotland is answerable to Parliament.

We are told that, with 160 clauses, the Scottish local government Bill will be the biggest Bill presented to Parliament since 1979. We are told also that the Government want to get it through both Houses before the summer. I must tell the Government that we will fight it line by irrelevant line. The gerrymander tax and the gerrymandered map will not get to the statute book easily or quickly.

We will not filibuster to delay the Bill, but, on behalf of those who will have to pay the additional tax and live with the map should the Government get their way, we will ensure that the Bill gets the scrutiny that it needs and should have had before it ever came before the House.

Throughout the country, we will expose this taxing, fiddling and conniving Government for what the proposed legislation tells us plainly that they are : a Government without support and without credibility, now wedded in desperation for their survival to a measure reeking of one thing alone-- crude political self-interest. The people will judge them severely.

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Mr. Win Griffiths : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I want to raise with you a serious issue that has arisen out of the opening speech of the Secretary of State for Scotland, when he made a few brief remarks about the changes that will take place to boundaries in the local government reorganisation in Wales.

I have already intervened to ask whether, during the debate, the Secretary of State can be more precise about what he described as a modest adjustment to the border between the Vale of Glamorgan and Bridgend. I have since been told behind the Chair that, of the four communities affected, only one will be put back into the Bridgend area.

I ask whether you, Madam Speaker, consider that the way in which that information was relayed in the Chamber today is good enough for the standard of debate that you oversee?

Madam Speaker : That was a good try, but the hon. Gentleman must be fully aware that it is not a point of order. There has been no breach of our Standing Orders. He will have to tease out of Ministers the information that he is seeking, so that it can be properly recorded in Hansard.

Mr. Ron Davies : Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. I wonder whether, in that process of teasing me, we could tease the Minister for a while. The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) raises is a valid one, because we now face the prospect of having a debate up to 9.30 pm on proposals about which we are not fully aware. The Secretary of State has made it clear that he will be making boundary rearrangements--changes to the published map--in respect of Powys, new Flintshire and the Vale of Glamorgan, to which my hon. Friend referred.

I understand also that the Secretary of State has indicated to the media his intention to change the announced timetable. That puts us in an impossible position. We are supposed to be spending the time between now and 9.30 pm debating the proposals, yet we do not know what, in definition, they will be. Neither do we know the timetable that the Secretary of State is proposing. The Minister of State, Welsh Office is present. The Secretary of State must have taken him into his confidence on these matters.

I ask that you, Madam Speaker, put your expression of concern direct to the Minister so that we can perhaps get a statement from him, particularly on the timetable and the boundary changes.

Madam Speaker : The point that the hon. Gentleman is raising is a serious matter, but it is not a point of order. It is a matter for debate, and it must be developed during the course of the debate. If the Minister seeks to make a statement, of course I must listen to it, but that is not a point of order for the Chair.

Mr. Wigley : Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. You have often said, as have your predecessors, how unsatisfactory it is if information is given to the press outside the Chamber on matters that are relevant to those being debated in the Chamber and is not made available to hon. Members who are taking part in the debate. That appears to have happened in this instance, particularly with regard to the timing of the introduction of the change for Wales. In those circumstances, might not it be appropriate for the Minister of State, Welsh Office to make a statement?

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Madam Speaker : I have only what the hon. Gentleman tells me to go on. I am not aware of statements that have been made to the media in any form at any time. I can say only what I am aware of, and I am not aware of that. Therefore, I must assume that, if the Minister wishes to make a statement later, he is going to do so. I cannot interrupt the debate at this stage unless the Minister is going to make a statement.

Sir Wyn Roberts : Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. You have already said that there is no point of order and that it is entirely a matter for debate. During the debate, I hope to help the hon. Members who have raised various points.

Mr. Alex Carlile : On a different point of order, which I think you will decide is a genuine point of order, Madam Speaker. When the Secretary of State for Scotland opened the debate, he criticised the Labour party for its views on who should participate in votes on issues relating to Scotland and, for that matter, to Wales. Can you confirm that, at the present time at least, Standing Order No. 86 remains applicable, and that, unless the Government decide to try to avoid a Standing Order which has been a Standing Order of this House for 90 years, all Welsh Members will be members of the Standing Committee which will deal with the Welsh local government Bill when it is eventually allowed into this democratically elected House?

Madam Speaker : Certainly at the moment I can confirm that Standing Order No. 86 is correct, as the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) has just outlined.

Mr. Peter Hain (Neath) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker : Does it relate to Standing Order No. 86 ?

Mr. Hain : No--

Madam Speaker : In that case, I call the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Robertson).

4.5 pm

Mr. Raymond S. Robertson (Aberdeen, South) : As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland said when he opened today's debate, the debate on the Gracious Speech on Thursday was indeed truly revealing with regard to the current constitutional thinking of the Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith). His contribution in that debate will be long remembered. He announced new constitutional arrangements that would come into force should he ever become Prime Minister.

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland so eloquently said earlier, the conclusion of those constitutional arrangements must mean that English Members will vote only on English matters ; Scottish Members will vote only on Scottish Matters and--although the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East did not say this--no doubt Welsh Members will vote only on Welsh matters and Northern Ireland Members will vote only on Northern Ireland matters.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland gave the Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen, the hon.

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Members for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) and for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson), ample opportunity to come to the Dispatch Box and say whether they disagreed with his conclusion. Neither of them took that opportunity. Perhaps when they reply to the debate later, they will have thought more about the subject, will have telephoned Monklands and have a line on that.

Will the Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen confirm that, should the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East ever become Prime Minister--a Prime Minister representing a Scottish seat--he would never take part in, vote in or answer questions in respect of purely English legislation? Will they confirm that on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 3.15 pm the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East would not answer a question on a matter of purely English or Welsh content?

Would there be an addition to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's usual standard reply about his engagements? Would another standard reply enter our proceedings? When asked a question on an English matter by an English Member, would the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East have to say, "That is a matter which I, as a Scottish Member of this House, am unable to comment upon?" The right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East was talking nonsense last Thursday. The Opposition Front- Bench spokesmen know that. He was making a mockery of the constitution. He was either playing to the nationalist supporters on the Benches behind him or he was playing to the nationalist supporters in his proposed new constituency. Either way, the House has a right to know from the Opposition Front Bench whether that is the latest constitutional thinking of the Labour party. The least that we can expect is an admission that the right hon. and learned Gentleman got it hopelessly wrong. When the Opposition spokesman replies to the debate, I hope that he will clear up the confusion.

Over the summer, the debate that has developed in Scotland on local government reform has been fascinating. Each of the Opposition parties has tried desperately to deny its own past commitments to single-tier councils. They have tried to distance themselves from their manifestos which appeared last April. They have been encouraged by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, which is desperate to get in on the act.

It is worth reminding the House about COSLA's role. First, it announced a grand campaign of non-co-operation which we were told would force myhat did not work, it relaunched it. When that did not work, COSLA redesigned it. When that grand plan of non-co-operation did not work, COSLA reassessed it. In November, no doubt, it will bitterly regret it.

A more serious debate than the one offered by COSLA has taken place, and it was most revealing. Over the summer it emerged and became apparent to all that there are two different visions of local government on offer to the people of Scotland. First, there is the vision of my right hon. Friend and his ministerial colleagues that offers strong, accountable and genuine local government. Secondly, there is the confusing vision of two tiers that leads to remote regions, buck-passing between region to

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district and district to region and people being passed from pillar to post and back again. My right hon. Friend's plans offer a strong, obvious, councillor-elector relationship and, most importantly, a council with which people can identify. Crucially, under those plans, there would be no centralisation and no drain of power from the communities to the centre or from the peripheries of Scotland to the central belts.

The councils proposed would be the most powerful local authority units that Scotland has ever seen. They would be responsible for services that directly touch the lives of everyone living in Scotland--from social work to education, from leisure and recreation to roads, from libraries to fire and from police to planning. All those services and more would be the responsibilities of elected local councillors in town halls throughout Scotland.

The Labour party offers a different vision. Every time its manifesto commitment of single-tier local authorities is quoted, as we heard from the hon. Member for Hamilton, Labour Members shout back and rejoice in yelling that it would occur only with a Scottish assembly. What impact would a Scottish assembly have on local democracy in Scotland? What would be the future for local accountability in a city such as Aberdeen or a town such as Inverness if there were an assembly in Edinburgh? It would have all the relevance of the present Lothian region and the sensitivity presently shown by the Strathclyde region.

Fortunately, we do not have to wait for the nightmare of a Scottish assembly to occur to assess its impact, because in fourteen and a half years, the Opposition have not been idle. They decided what they would do and let us know vividly. The assembly would be one of many and varied powers. The Opposition tell us that it would take powers from this House relating to agriculture, fishing, social security, health and, according to the latest document from the Scottish Constitutional Convention, it would take electricity generation--from whom, we do not know. Probably, the Opposition would not deny any of that.

We have not heard today and certainly did not hear during the summer that, in addition to the powers that the Opposition propose to take from the House to give to a Scottish assembly, they would flesh the powers out with other powers and responsibilities that are currently in the hands of local authorities across Scotland. We are told that they would take education, fire, police, housing, local roads, transport, planning and industrial development to Edinburgh. Opposition Members murmur, but it is no use denying those proposals.

Mr. Foulkes : The hon. Gentleman needs some education. The Labour party proposed that the legislative power currently at Westminster, in relation to all the services that he described should be transferred from Westminster to Edinburgh, but that the administration of all those services would remain with the local authorities. If the hon. Gentleman is to continue in such a vein of ignorance, he should sit down and let some of my hon. Friends speak.

Mr. Robertson : I thought that the hon. Gentleman would say that. Does he expect the House to believe that the proposed assembly, sitting in Calton Hill, would merely take the administrative power? No, it would not. It would take every other power associated with those responsibilities and the hon. Gentleman knows that full well.

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Mr. Phil Gallie (Ayr) : Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) has gey few friends on the Opposition Benches?

Mr. Robertson : Absolutely. All the proposals are contained in the Scottish Constitutional Convention document of September 1990, which the Labour and Liberal parties have signed. It is a charter for destroying local democracy in Scotland, for stripping local councils for all meaningful powers and responsibilities and for moving decision making from town halls and council chambers to the royal high school in Edinburgh. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is so determined to sell it off.

The threat facing local government in Scotland is the threat of a Scottish assembly, which in order to have any meaningful role in the life of our nation would have to plunder and claim for itself the responsibilities of local authorities. The hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) has virtually just admitted that. The story does not end with the powers that those who support the establishment of a Scottish assembly have already said it will take and are intent on its taking.

Paragraph 4 of the Scottish Constitutional Convention document--signed by the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats--says : "It must be stressed that this paper represents a summary, and is not an exhaustive listing, of the range of powers which should be held by Scotland's Parliament. Other areas will require further consideration by the Convention or by Scotland's Parliament itself." That provision would see powers drain away from local communities in Aberdeen, Dundee, Dumfries, Inverness and Perth to a centralised Scottish assembly on Calton hill. That is the real threat to local accountability and democracy in Scotland.

Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland) : As one of those present who was involved in the constitutional convention, I suspect that I have a better understanding of the document than does the hon. Gentleman. Does he accept that the interpretation given by the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) was accurate and that it is the legislative powers of this House that will be transferred to the Scottish parliament? Does the hon. Gentleman further accept--if he insists on quoting--that the documents contain copious references to the need to strengthen local democracy in the localities and communities of Scotland? He should not be so selective in his quotations.

Mr. Robertson : I was in no way selective. I merely quoted the constitutional convention. If the Opposition parties do not like it, no wonder it is falling apart.

To prove my point and in conclusion, I can do no better than to quote one of Labour's great Scottish local government gurus. Writing in the Glasgow Herald of 6 March last year, Councillor Jean McFadden, the current leader of Glasgow district council and a past president of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, gave the following view :

"I think we have to be very much on our guard here. There may well be a tendency for the Scottish Parliament to suck up power from below."

That says it all. That is why my right hon. Friend's reforms are welcome, why they will work and why they will endure.

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4.16 pm

Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) : You will recall, Madam Speaker, that in the absence of the Secretary of State for Wales we tried to secure from the Minister a statement about the timetable. I hope that we shall get such a statement from the Secretary of State immediately. If word is to be sent out to the Welsh media that it is planned to postpone the Welsh proposals by 12 months, every hon. Member is entitled to know it. It is essential, and a natural courtesy to the House--especially those Welsh Members present--that the Secretary of State should intervene briefly to advise us whether he intends to announce a 12-month postponement. All of us invite the right hon. Gentleman to tell us rather than simply sending word out to the Welsh media, which would be an insult to the House. I am offering to give way to the Secretary of State if he is willing to intervene.

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. John Redwood) : I have made no statement on the subject to the Welsh media. I will make a statement to the House when I make my speech.

Mr. Rowlands : I think that that means that there will indeed be a 12-month delay.

Going "back to basics"--back to old-fashioned values--has become the theme of our debate on the Loyal Address. I should like to remind the Secretary of State of one or two of those old-fashioned values as they relate to institutions, to communities and to the behaviour of Parliaments and Governments.

A number of us recall very well the previous occasion on which Welsh local government was reorganised, under another Conservative Government. The Bill foreshadowed in the Queen's Speech is designed to unravel everything that was done in 1972. I remember the reaction in the communities : in Pembrokeshire the reaction was strong, and the very concept of Dyfed was rejected. Ministers were unwilling to listen to those objections. Now, 20 years later, they have come back to the House with the intention of unravelling all those changes. If nothing else, the right hon. Gentleman should approach local government reorganisation with humility, and be willing to listen and heed. He does not represent anybody in Wales, but he represents the Government, and he has been given the transient job of Secretary of State for Wales.

The alteration of institutions and the constitution of a community and society is rather more fundamental than average pieces of legislation. A good old-fashioned thought that we should plant in the Secretary of State's mind is that, generally speaking, it is a good old-fashioned basic value that in such circumstances one tries to seek consensus. One reaches out and does not exercise the brute force of a majority in the House to railroad through institutional and constitutional changes that will be embodied in such a major local government reorganisation Bill.

Mr. Wigley : The hon. Gentleman rightly underlines that it is a major constitutional Bill. I saw the Secretary of State nodding his head to that. In the circumstances, is it not outrageous that it should be introduced in the House of Lords?

Mr. Rowlands : It is a total disgrace. No doubt Standing Order No. 86 will also be waived. That shows how

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miserable and insensitive the Government are to Welsh sensitivities and parliamentary procedures relating to Wales.

Mr. Alex Carlile : The hon. Gentleman has been in this House for a very long time. I would be grateful to know whether he has ever heard of what was supposed to be a major debate in which the Secretary of State for Wales was to make an announcement on timing, according to a letter which I have just received at 4.20 pm, at the end of that debate. How can we debate the issue if we are not told what the announcement on timing is before we hear the Secretary of State's speech?

Mr. Rowlands : The hon. and learned Gentleman mentions my longevity in this House. I have spent most of my time trying to achieve parity for Wales with Scotland. We have now reached the absurd situation in which the Secretary of State for Scotland announced changes to Welsh local government, and the Bill will be piloted through the House of Lords by a Scottish advocate. We have gone back 10 steps as a result. It is an outrage. In the spirit of old-fashioned basic values, the Secretary of State for Wales should think again about the way he is treating the House and Welsh Members on this issue.

Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda) : I must admit that I am a little surprised that my hon. Friend expected anything else from the Secretary of State for Wales or the Welsh Office. As my hon. Friend knows, many Opposition Members have spoken to the Secretary of State and to his predecessor, who said that he wanted to consider adjustments in the light of hon. Members' representations. As my hon. Friend says, the Secretary of State is listening to no one. He is railroading the measure through on the basis of what has been given to him by his civil servants. He has altered the original proposals of his predecessor, the present Secretary of State for

Employment--another Englishman--without taking into consideration the views of the people who will be affected by the legislation.

Mr. Rowlands : Like me, my hon. Friend represents one of the great traditional communities. Our communities are outraged at the way in which our genuine, legitimate and non-partisan representations to the Secretary of State appear to have been totally ignored.

We put a basic and fundamental point to the Secretary of State : when one is changing institutions and constitutional arrangements within a community and society, particularly within a Welsh community which the right hon. Gentleman does not represent and cannot claim to represent in any shape or form, one should heed as well as listen to the voices of those who make a sensible, rational case on behalf of changes to such proposals.

We accept that the Secretary of State has power to railroad the Bill through the House and that he will have power to waive Standing Order No. 86, but in doing so he will offend one of the basic, fundamental principles which were supposed to be the centrepiece of the Queen's Speech--the sensible, responsible, accountable relationship that should occur in such issues. Since the Secretary of State announced his proposals, he has failed to find a single supporter for one of his major changes to local government. He cannot find a local authority, community organisation or any other body from Blaenau Gwent,

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Merthyr or Rhymney to speak for the heads of the valleys communities. No one supports the proposal to which he is apparently sticking.

He has managed to achieve consensus on one matter--consensus against his proposal. In the spirit of good, old-fashioned, basic and decent values of the sort that he has talked about, why has he refused to listen to the unanimous voice that stretches across the heads of the valleys, which opposes his proposal for an unwieldy local authority called the heads of the valleys ?

Incidentally, it is interesting that the statement by the Secretary of State for Scotland, which has been sent to us, refers to changing the names of authorities :

"Important among these is the renaming of the proposed Glamorgan Valleys authority to Rhondda-Cynon-Taff, thus ensuring that those historic names are not lost from local government in Wales." Alongside those historic names there is an equal, if not greater, historic name--Merthyr Tydfil. It predates most of the other valley communities in its development, its history and the role that it has played, but it is to be wiped off the map.

We are not simply asking for palliatives or changes to place names. In Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney and, indeed, other authorities across the heads of the valleys, we believe that our sense of civic identity is tied closely to the responsibilities and powers of local government--they go hand in hand. Merthyr Tydfil was a powerful county borough. Even in the Local Government Act 1972 it was especially recognised as a library authority. It maintained certain responsibilities and powers because of its distinctive role and the role that it played as the centre of the heads of the valleys. Therefore, it is not simply an authority that can be abolished at the stroke of a pen or in a schedule to a Bill.

In the Welsh Grand Committee, many of us made a passionate and reasoned case to change the boundaries. I thought that, when there was some consensus on the change, the Secretary of State would accept it. However, he has not done so, unless he makes further announcements. I should be grateful if he could say whether these are the only proposed changes to the White Paper. He would reduce my speech by a few minutes if he briefly intervened to say that these changes only foreshadow other more significant changes of the sort that we have recommended to him. If he does not rise to his feet, I assume that he will not announce anything further this evening.

Mr. Redwood : The hon. Gentleman is right : I will not make any other big boundary announcements this evening. My proposals reflect many of the representations that I heard, and many communities will be grateful for the changes that I am making. Of course, many parliamentary processes lie ahead, and it is always worth while for the hon. Gentleman to make his points.

Mr. Rowlands : I have been here nearly 26 years, and I have been in the same Department as the Secretary of State. Frankly, one knows that it is more sensible to make a change to the schedule to a Bill now, rather than to wait and debate the schedule, when the Minister will use English votes to override our further representations. If he is willing and game to say that he is still open-minded on a fundamental issue such as the so- called heads of the valleys authority, we will take every parliamentary opportunity to press our case.

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The Secretary of State has already made some announcements. He should realise that, in the case of the heads of the valleys, the representations received have been unanimously opposed to his proposal.

Mr. Rogers : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In view of what my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) said, is it not against all parliamentary conventions that on such an issue, the Secretary of State can make announcements at the end of the debate, whereas we are all waiting to participate in a debate on the proposals before us? If it was just sheer arrogance on the part of the Secretary of State I would accept it, but surely we need to know what we are talking about.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse) : That is not a point of order for the Chair. The Secretary of State is responsible for his own actions.

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