House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Nov 1993

Mr. Gallie : My understanding is that, within the House, hon. Members represent United Kingdom constituencies. As such, Members of all parties and from all parts of the United Kingdom enter the debate and sit on Committees on United Kingdom affairs. I see no cause for concern about the legislation, and I welcome advice on the issue from all parts of the United Kingdom.

Why has the Labour party changed its views on the issue? There is one specific reason : the voice of COSLA, which is represented heavily by Labour Members from central Scotland. The Labour party founded its strong political base on COSLA and on that central Scottish representation. I should like to think that when we debate the subject in Committee--it will be a long and hard debate on 160 clauses, with many hours of debate--Labour Members will throw aside the vested interests of COSLA and look after their constituents' interests. I offer 100 per cent. commitment to my constituents' interests.

The Labour party in Ayrshire is in the mire. Across Ayrshire, there is great relief that Strathclyde will soon be abolished. The Scottish Labour party will struggle to

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maintain Strathclyde and try to hold on to its regions, but Labour Members in Ayrshire have shown signs of dissent. We have a new boy in the hon. Member for Cunninghame, South (Mr. Donohoe), who may obey his party's instructions, but the hon. Members for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Mr. McKelvey), for whom I have the greatest respect, may follow their instincts and the interests of their constituents.

Mr. Donohoe : Why, therefore, is the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) running scared from a debate on the reorganisation of local government on Friday evening?

Mr. Gallie : The hon. Member for Cunninghame, South is well aware that notification of the debate was given only a week ago. I have a full diary. I have already had debates in the constituencies of the hon. Members for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun and in my constituency. I have no need to run scared of anyone. If the hon. Member for Cunninghame, South wants me to debate the subject in his constituency, I shall arrange a mutually convenient time to do so.

Mr. Foulkes : Perhaps I could offer another reason why the hon. Gentleman is unable to attend, apart from his full diary. He has attended two meetings. Out of a large attendance in his constituency of Ayr he was able to get only four supporters from the floor, and he had to leave before the end of the meeting in Cumnock, but I can tell him that we had a vote and no one supported him. He seems to be moving in the right direction. If he went to Cunninghame, presumably some who supported him at the beginning would end up not supporting him at the end.

Mr. Gallie : As the hon. Gentleman and I are well aware, the large attendance in Ayr was of probably about 60 or 70 politically aligned people, and the same applies to Kilmarnock and Loudoun. Both debates were pretty partial. The debate organised by the community council in Kilmarnock and Loudoun was constructive anly aligned, but, in general, for the most strange reasons, they seem to support the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley time and again at general elections. I do not know what the outcome of the debate was, but it was useful and I enjoyed attending. His constituents gave me a fair hearing.

I remind the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley that I sat on a platform with about eight other speakers and was well aware that each of them would speak against the views that I had expressed. It does not surprise me if, having gone first, my voice did not prevail.

Labour Members from Ayrshire are not in tune with their district councillors. Labour-controlled Cunninghame district council wants to go it alone, as do councillors in Kyle and Carrick. I do not argue with them. That is a matter for the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) to pursue. I do not know his view, but I am told that he pledged to people in Cunninghame, North that he would support his councillors in achieving their aim. I shall wait to see whether he does so, because, if he did, it would cut across his party's policy, and on that basis he would probably have to give up his position as deputy shadow transport spokesman.

Mr. Foulkes : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

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Mr. Gallie : I will shortly.

Mr. Foulkes : I shall be very brief.

Mr. Gallie : No, we have heard enough from you--sorry, not from you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but from the hon. Gentleman.

Councillors in Kilmarnock and Loudoun are suggesting that they should have a single all-purpose authority. There is something ghastly awry in the Labour party in Ayrshire, and rather than having a go at me, occasionally Labour Members would do better to get together and sort out the problems of the Labour party.

Mr. Foulkes : The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the Labour party in Ayrshire did get together at a meeting in Kilmarnock with representatives from all constituencies and we unanimously supported an all -Ayrshire authority. He should be aware, and I hope that he will admit it, that every Labour councillor in Kyle and Carrick and every councillor in Cumnock and Doon Valley supports an all-Ayshire authority. I hope that the hon. Member will admit that.

Mr. Gallie : I do not disagree with anything that the hon. Member says, but Labour-controlled Cunninghame district council and Kilmarnock and Loudoun council have said that they want their own authority. The hon. Gentleman has emphasised my point : the Labour party in Ayrshire is in a mess, and if it has achieved unity, but the local authorities disagree, that merely supports my point. What would a new all-Ayrshire authority mean to my constituents in Kyle and Carrick? It would mean a loss of say. Under a set-up between Irvine, Kilmarnock and Cumnock, our people in south Ayr would have little voice and that must be borne in mind.

We are told that we have a Tory fiefdom. What a lot of nonsense. In Kyle and Carrick--the future south Ayrshire, south-west Ayrshire, or even Kyle and Carrick ; perhaps that is a small change that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State might consider--the local authority is accountable to its people. At each election, its complexion has changed, which is good for local democracy and is what local government is all about. If the council delivers and it offers good services at the right cost, it will be re- elected. If it does not, it is the right of the elector to change the complexion of the council. That will continue to happen in south Ayrshire, and that is a very sound basis for looking forward.

Mr. Wallace : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Gallie : Despite the fact that the hon. Gentleman showed me no courtesy when he was speaking, I will, of course, give way to him.

Mr. Wallace : I assure the hon. Gentleman that I had just begun my speech when he tried to intervene.

What does the hon. Gentleman have to say to his Conservative party colleagues on the council in the city of Edinburgh? Did not 40 per cent. of the voters turn out to vote for the Conservative party, and yet it got fewer seats than the Labour party and is now in opposition?

Mr. Gallie : I would tell them to keep trying and accept the rules as they stand. They will prevail and, in due course, the electorate will see the light.

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Mr. Richards : My hon. Friend was kind enough to give way to the Liberal Democrat spokesman on local government, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace).

Does my hon. Friend recall the recent Tower Hamlets by-election when a leaflet that was produced by the Liberal Democrats was criticised as racist? The Liberal Democrat party said at that time that it was conducting an inquiry into that leaflet. Will my hon. Friend ask the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland when the outcome of that inquiry will be known?

Mr. Gallie : I must tell my hon. Friend for Clwyd, North-West (Mr. Richards) that we are talking about local government in Scotland and Wales. However, since I have emphasised that I am a Member of the United Kingdom Parliament, I should be happy to give way to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland if he wishes to respond.

Mr. Wallace rose--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I suggest that hon. Members stick to the debate on Scotland and Wales.

Mr. Gallie : I feel that you have saved the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland some embarrassment, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

What is currently on offer from the Labour party on the local government review? There is no doubt that it will say that it wants a commission. The subject of a commission will come up during the parliamentary debate, no doubt on the Second Reading of the local government Bill, and will be pushed at that time. What would the commission be? It would be nothing more than a talking shop which would put a time barrier on a change for which many people across Scotland cannot wait.

It is in line for Opposition Members to seek delay constantly. They are people who, I would suggest, would never do today what can be put off until tomorrow. Their policies are those of the indecisive, of those who shirk responsibility, and of those who would welcome several layers of government to mask their responsibility. Opposition Members want a Scottish assembly for just such a purpose. A Scottish assembly would achieve another level of restriction that would be placed on the citizens of Scotland. Another layer of politicians would be added to the requirements of Scottish business, Scottish interests and Scottish development. We certainly do not want an assembly. There has been much talk of the powers that such an assembly would either suck in or have redistributed. We have heard very little from Opposition Members on the cost of such an assembly. The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) and the hon. Member for Fife, Central should take that on board when they are talking about changes in the constitutional arrangements in Scotland.

In finalising-- [Interruption.] Maybe I will not finish, given the obvious popularity of my words. I will expand on what the Opposition want to do. I mentioned the loss of democracy in Ayrshire, and the loss of input for my constituents if there were to be an all-Ayrshire authority. I did not mentioned the cost, and what it would it mean for my constituents. I said that we would lose our say, and such an authority would mean my constituents would have excessive amounts to pay.

When I look at the make-up of Ayrshire, I find that, in Cumnock and Doon Valley, 82 per cent. of domestic

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residences are in the A and B bands of the council tax. In Kilmarnock and Loudon, the figure is 71 per cent. and in Cunninghame it is 68 per cent. In my constituency, 80 per cent. of residences are in the higher bands of the council tax. Believe me, that my constituents are no better off than others in Ayrshire. The facts are that their properties have higher values and their levels of income do not represent that.

Those who are currently worst off, and in particular those pensioners who are just above the levels of social security support, would be the people who would suffer from an all-Ayrshire authority through extra council tax demands. That is one great reason why there is no way that we will go down the path of an all-Ayrshire authority if I have anything to do with it.

Looking at the Gracious Speech overall, there are one or two other issues of importance to Scotland to which I should like to draw to the attention of hon. Members. One is the commitment of the Government to continue to upgrade overseas aid. I applaud that. Considerable progress has been made over the years but, at times, that acts against us. In my constituency, British Aerospace has had to shed jobs because of the misdirection of overseas aid in Brazil. I should like my hon. Friends and right hon. Friends to take that on board and pass it on to the relevant Ministers.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. It would be helpful if the hon. Gentleman addressed his remarks to Scotland and Wales, and not to Brazil.

Mr. Gallie : I made that point with particular reference to the interests of Scotland and the impact of overseas aid on Scottish jobs. I apologise, and I will now make my second point.

There are references within the Gracious Speech to law and order issues. I trust that those references are spread on a United Kingdom basis, because there is interest in Scotland in changes in law and order and in criminal justice.

The Government are intent under the local government review to make changes to the children's hearing panel system and to the reporter service. I hope that the review will give some teeth to the children's panels to deal with many of the young hoodlums who come before them. I pay tribute to those who sit on the children's panels. They are dedicated to their task and they are interested in the future of Scottish children, but they are also interested in the protection of the public. I hope that that issue will be kept to the fore in the changes that are to be made to the reporter service. 5.38 pm

Ms Rachel Squire (Dunfermline, West) : The hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) started his speech by accusing Opposition Members of "talking, talking, talking". The hon. Gentleman has just given an absolutely marvellous example of an hon. Member who has the ability to talk but--as was clear from the rest of his speech--does not have the ability to listen to the people of Ayrshire or to the people of Scotland. The hon. Gentleman's clear interest in the Labour party in Ayrshire leads me to conclude that he is thinking that the only way that he can keep his seat at the next general election is to join the Labour party.

The Government have claimed in the White Paper that they want to make councils more accessible, more

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accountable, and more reflective of local loyalties. The Government clearly do not listen to what the people of Scotland want. My view, and certainly the view of my constituents in Dunfermline and west Fife, is that the Government's proposals are not in the interests of Scottish people. The Government's proposals are about centralisation of power at the Scottish Office and here at Westminster. They are about the privatisation of public services and the creation of yet more quangos and well-paid jobs for the Tories' friends such as the former general manager of Greater Glasgow health board.

I shall give a few examples of the Government's failure to listen. In the west end of my constituency is the community of Kincardine. For many years that community has been part of Fife. It is loyal to Fife. Yet the people of Kincardine have been told that they will be tacked on to the newly created council of Clackmannan and Falkirk. They protest loudly.

Thinking that the Government might be prepared to listen to their voices, the people of Kincardine and their community council carried out a survey. They visited 1,016 households. They found that 93.12 per cent. of the people of Kincardine wished to remain in Fife. So will the Government listen to the people of Kincardine? Will they allow them to stay in an area which they feel is accessible and accountable, and to which its people are loyal?

The second example of the Government's failure to listen is the proposals on the future of the management of the water service in Scotland. The vast majority of the Scottish people have said that they want the water service to remain solely within the control of democratically elected councils. They say that water is a basic need which should belong to all the people and not just to the ever fewer friends of the Conservative party in Scotland.

If the Government are still unable to accept that that is what the people of Scotland want, are they prepared to hold a referendum on the water service? The Government might as well--it would be a cost-saving measure-- include in that referendum questions not only about what people want for the future of the water service in Scotland but about whether they want a Scottish parliament and about the reorganisation of local government once we have a Scottish parliament.

If the Government want strong and effective local government, they should wait and they should introduce legislation to create a Scottish parliament. If the Government want value for money, as they claim, they should ditch the White Paper because no one wants the changes proposed in it and no one needs them. The taxpayer certainly does not want to see yet another £200 million wasted on yet another whim of the Conservative Government.

The people of Scotland clearly want elected councils which are directly accessible and accountable. They are largely satisfied with the present arrangement. They do not want further hiving off. They do not want an extension of the contract culture. They do not want further unnecessary compulsory competitive tendering. I suggest that the only people who should be put out to contract are the Ministers in the Scottish Office. We can safely predict that no one would want them.

I am aware of other hon. Members' interest in the debate, so I shall conclude. I agree with the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart) that proposals should be sensitive and accountable to local needs. If the Government are serious about that, they should take notice

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of what the people and my constituents in Kincardine are saying. They should keep water in public control. They should promote value for money and competition by giving Scotland Scottish parliament and then allow Opposition Members to show how to improve public services, how to introduce accessibility and accountability, and how to govern a country in the interests of all rather than a few.

5.44 pm

Mr. James Hill (Southampton, Test) : I realise that this is a debate on Scottish and Welsh local government, but everything that I shall speak about will be of interest and will apply to Scotland and Wales as much as it applies to English local government.

The big issue of the day is the "back to basics" theme, which the Prime Minister is fully behind. The first measure will be the criminal justice Bill. It will strengthen the fight against crime and provide new powers to detect crime and convict the guilty. The second measure will be the education Bill, which will reform teacher training so that new teachers have more practical and relevant experience in how to get the basics right in the schools. There will also be a deregulation Bill, which will remove specific burdens and ensure continuing efforts to leave business, including Scottish and Welsh business, free of unnecessary and burdensome state interference.

I suppose that we were all delighted a short time ago when, after the Police Federation had taken a perhaps difficult stance on the Sheehy report, my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary was wise enough to accept parts of it but to leave out the fixed-term appointments and the performance-related pay matrix. That was well thought out. It was right that he should take a cautious approach to a service for which the whole world respects us.

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow) : May I point out to the hon. Gentleman that many members of the Scottish police force still have some serious reservations about the parts of the Sheehy report that have been left in? It is not all milk and honey. Officers from constables to chief constable still have serious reservations about the proposals that have been left in.

Mr. Hill : I am inclined to agree with the hon. Gentleman. Indeed, in a recent paper the chairman of the Police Federation said : "The battle is not over".

That is true. There must be further and further talks on all the problems that would prevent our police force from working efficiently. We cannot have a police force which is working at half power.

The number of crimes is increasing for many reasons. For example, we have made it far easier for people to talk about child abuse and rape in the home. Brothers and sisters now want to protect each other and will report incidents to the police. The huge volume of crime that we hear about now may well have been submerged and hidden previously. Now it is coming out into the open. That is why crime statistics are particularly horrifying.

I go to the extent of saying that we must all support the police in every way that we can. There is a moral factor here. A police superintendent in my constituency today begged members of the public to come forward as witnesses. There were plenty of people around when a police officer stopped a car and put his hand through the

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window to remove the ignition key. The young thug put the window up and dragged the police officer along the ground for 25 to 30 yards, giving him some nasty injuries.

Those are the sorts of thing that are happening now. They would have been unheard of 30 or 40 years ago as there would not have been such disrespect for the police. But now there is a moral factor, which comes through the education system, the homes and the behaviour of everyone, including hon. Members in the House. Unfortunately, young people feel the need to express their frustration.

There have been two murders in my area, but not in my constituency. In one of them, a young girl was stabbed 27 times. A form of madness is creeping into our society and we must support the police in every way that we can. We cannot allow youngsters of 14 or 15 years of age to come before the courts and say that they cannot be touched. They know that, at the moment, we cannot touch them. We must give the juvenile offenders courts a new power to send persistent 12 and 14-year-old offenders to secure training centres. The maximum sentence for 15, 16 and 17-year-olds should be doubled to two years in a young offenders' institution.

In the worst cases in my area, youngsters who commit 20 or 30 burglaries confess, go before magistrates, get bail and then commit another 20 or 30 burglaries. We must crack down on what are called bail bandits. The new criminal justice Bill, although it will be subject to much debate, provides that youngsters will not get bail if it can be proved that they are persistent bail offenders. The right to remain silent, too, is an important part of the criminal justice Bill. That matter will be seriously debated, but it will be possible for the court to draw inferences from the silence of a defendant's refusal to answer questions.

We must use more DNA sampling. There is an idea that it should not be allowed, but really it is structural fingerprinting, and we have relied on fingerprinting for many years. It is a new and possible way for the police to obtain non-intimate samples--such clauses are always included--from all suspects arrested in connection with recordable offences.

There is now a new procedure on squatters which has caused much annoyance. I quote the example of people coming home from holiday and finding that they have squatters in their home.

The question of the disruption of country sport will be fiercely debated, as indeed it should be. We must not waste too much time on that. That measure should go through fairly easily.

However, child pornography must be deeply debated, because there is far too much of it. We had an exhibition in the Houses of Parliament at which the Metropolitan police brought conclusive evidence of what is going on with pornography. We are probably the only people who can deal adequately with that matter in legal terms.

I shall now deal with the police and magistrates court Bill. I have a personal commitment tomorrow to go to the Lord Chancellor's Office, because it is dragging its heels on the new magistrates' building that was proposed for Southampton--another 12 courts. It is no good putting up six more prisons and having far more institutions to look

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after young offenders ; the courts must be adequately serviced and we need extra money to build the magistrates court.

I hope that the Government will not go too far towards taking away from the chairman and magistrates of each area the control of the clerk of the magistrates. I do not think that that is the right way to proceed. It is a team effort and I have been visited by the chairman of the magistrates, the magistrates and the clerk of the magistrates in Southampton, who asked me to say a word against that. It is not a matter that will just go away. If the state gradually makes all the appointments, people working in the system will give up a lot of their moral fibre and think that it is no good proceeding.

Mr. David Nicholson (Taunton) : Many of us have been lobbied about this measure, about which I have great reservations. The people lobbying us are not radical revolutionaries, or even complaining Liberals. They are often lifelong Conservatives who are unhappy about the powers being taken to the centre. In my area in particular, they are unhappy at the twinning of Somerset with Avon so that more of Somerset council tax payers' money will go into the black hole that is Bristol.

Mr. Hill : That was a useful intervention.

Another matter that will not be affecting Scotland--so often Scotland is ahead of the rest of us--is the Sunday Trading Bill, which will be very emotive. It is beginning to seem as though the middle course is the only course. Total deregulation is proposed and we are promised a free vote, for which I am grateful, but there will be a need for partial deregulation. Sunday trading has been a complete mess for many years and we should get it right. We are promised that that will happen before Christmas. There must be a precise administration system if we are to be able to get it before then. I chaired the Committee that considered the Carrying of Knives etc. (Scotland) Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) promoted it. Without crossing any boundaries, I think that the same Bill should be applicable in England and Wales. Hunting knives are pretty fearsome. Any hon. Member who has travelled on the steamers across the channel to France will know that one can buy knives over there with which one can gut an ox. They are freely on sale, and so are guns, but I am talking about knives now, and we must have a uniform law on hunting knives and strong penalties for those who use them against other human beings.

There is a continuing feeling outside the House--as we are told when we go back to our constituencies--that people in certain areas of a city are no longer free to move after dark. Elderly people lock themselves in. We do not seem to have any plan. To my knowledge, no local authority, bar Leeds, employs security police to keep an eye on the emotive corners of large council estates.

There is no doubt that much of the crime on such estates is due to the fact that the youngsters are bored. They gather in gangs and make a nuisance of themselves. If they can find someone to persecute, they will. The future for all local authorities is to consider introducing security arrangements on their high-risk estates. Councils which do that will be highly regarded. Although this may be more applicable to my area than to Scotland, we need security patrols in my area as soon as is humanly possible.

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5.59 pm

Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North) : I am sure that the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Hill) will forgive me if I do not follow his argument.

One of the most disappointing things about the Gracious Speech is that the only reference to Scotland is the old news that we are to have a reorganisation of local government. The speech by the Secretary of State for Scotland was extremely disappointing because he did not give the reasons for the reorganisation. From the very beginning, the Secretary of State has not justified his proposed changes. He has cited no surveys, royal commissions or independent studies. He has simply referred to his own views.

Before I consider local government reform in particular, I want to refer to the Gracious Speech in its general terms. The Prime Minister and others have told us that the theme of the Gracious Speech is "back to basics." That sounds like a computer program to me and we should not be surprised about that. The Government have no respect for the individual.

For the Government, people are simply numbers to be manipulated to suit the Government's preconceptions and dogma. The Queen's Speech, and all that has been said about it, shows that the Government are still thirled to short- termism, to which I and others have drawn attention on previous occasions and to which even the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont) managed to refer in his resignation speech.

The Government's attitude is to always change the rules and concepts on which they are operating. If the unemployment figures are too high, they change the basis on which they are calculated in order to reduce them. If that does not work, the instruction goes out to take people off unemployment benefit and to put them on invalidity benefit. If the invalidity benefit bill rises to high, people are taken off that and put on income support. At all times, the issue is to avoid responsibility.

We now understand from the press that the Government are concerned that the bill for unemployment benefit is too high. What is their solution to that? The solution is not to get people back to work. Instead, it appears to be to cut benefit back to six months. The Government are always looking for a quick fix. They are doing nothing to stimulate the economy.

We are always told that we are being given new job opportunities and that unemployment is a chance for people to get new jobs. We are told that unfair dismissal is a barrier to job opportunity and to employment. What did the Government do? They reduced the qualification period during which people can raise actions for unfair dismissal.

The Government claim that what they are trying to do in the Queen's Speech, and what they have tried to do throughout their period in office, is to provide people with freedom and choice. The trouble is that that freedom of choice is confined to those who can afford to choose. For example, employers have rights, but employees are denied choice at every level. The same applies in education.

I have no objection to the publication of league tables of how schools are performing. People can then see what is happening. However, the Government fall down because they see publication of those tables as the end of the matter. They do not consider the schools that find it difficult to provide a good service to pupils. The Government do not

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try to remedy the faults in our education system. The Government ignore all that. They simply publish the tables and hope for the best.

We are now told that if local government is eventually reorganised, there will be no need for a statutory education committee or a director of education. We are told that that also applies to social work. There will be no statutory right for a social work committee or a director of social work.

The Government talk continually about the need for family values. What about the people who are struggling to keep a family together? What about the unemployed who are desperate to obtain full-time work to give their families and children a decent start in life and decent services? They cannot do that, because they are compelled to try to eke out an existence on income support.

The gap between rich and poor is increasing at a rate probably unknown since Victorian or pre-Victorian times. Are the Government worried about that? I do not believe that they are. I believe that the Government want to promote a society in which there is a greater gap between rich and poor. If the Government cannot respect the individual, how on earth do they expect the individual to respect society?

The problem is that, by their actions, the Government debase and debauch the very values that trip so readily from the tongues of Ministers. We need to restore a society that cares for its people and which gives people real rights and responsibilities. Investment in people, in education and in social services is necessary if we are to have real rights and responsibilities in our communities.

Mr. Gallie : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Hughes : Not at the moment.

The Government do nothing to help the elderly and those whom they so often say that they wish to help--those peoplotect the elderly and those on state benefits. We still have not heard the details of that scheme. We simply read in the press that we can discuss that scheme only once the public sector expenditure round is passed. In other words, pensioners and those in need are at the bottom of the queue and not at the top.

I want to fire a warning across the Chamber. We hear in the House and elsewhere that, once a VAT rate of 7.5 per cent. or 15 per cent. is applied, there is nothing that we can do about it. I do not accept that. We are told that it cannot be changed because there is a concordat with the European Community--or the European Union, as we are now supposed to call it. I suppose that we will all have to learn the new names. I do not accept that we cannot change the rate of VAT.

I understand that harmonisation of VAT is desirable and even necessary in an open-border economy in respect of tradeable commodities and consumer goods. However, VAT on domestic fuel bills is not a choice or a tradeable commodity. Fuel is a necessity. The Opposition Front Bench as well as the Government Front Bench should be carrying forward the argument in Europe. When Labour comes to power, it will not accept that we have no right to reduce or even abolish VAT on electricity bills. We must carry that fight at every opportunity in the European Community.

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I want now to consider the reorganisation of local government. I make no secret of the fact that I have always been in favour of single-tier authorities. I was against the two-tier authority system when it was announced by the Wheatley commission. The big difference between now and then, and one of the reasons why the argument about local government has developed, is that at least the Wheatley commission was a royal commission. At least everyone agreed that there were far too many local authorities in Scotland.

Everyone agreed that some of the small boroughs were totally incapable of sustaining the kind of services that we wanted. That, at least, was a common agreement in local government, Parliament and elsewhere. There was at least that consensus. However, the Government have proceeded not on the basis of trying to establish the facts or the record. They have simply dealt with the matter as an in-house exercise. That is what happened in Scotland.

Although I support one-tier authorities, it is a mistake to denigrate the present system and simply to say that regional councils have done no good and have never played a positive role. I believe that they have played a positive role. For example, Grampian regional council--naturally, I speak about the area I know best--has much to commend it. It has an industrial strategy which, by and large, has worked. It is a mistake simply to say that what Grampian regional council has done to promote trade and industry in the area should be cast aside without examining what good it has done.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) said in an intervention, the problem is that we are not actually going to get unitary authorities. We are not doing away with the two-tier local government system. We will have unitary authorities for some aspects of local government, but we will have quangos, which will be grafted on to the system, to deal with issues that cannot be accommodated properly within local government. Those quangos will have no real accountability. Experience has told us that joint boards do not work. They have been tried and they do not work. Many right hon. and hon. Members have become excitable about the new local authority boundaries during the debate. Great concern has been expressed about the way in which the boundaries have been drawn, such as the proposed single-tier authority for the Highland region. The Secretary of State began the entire exercise by saying that the objective of local government reorganisation was to bring government nearer to the people. If that has any validity at all, one single authority for the Highland region is total nonsense. Given the geography and the travel- to-work distances, there must be smaller authorities in the Highland region that are more closely related to the people. It is proposed that Westhill should be tagged on to the city of Aberdeen.

The constituency of the hon. Member for Gordon (Mr. Bruce)--who, I understand, has other engagements--includes Westhill. The hon. Member for Kincardine and Deeside and I went to Westhill some weeks ago to receive a petition. The figures are clear : 97 per cent. of the adult population of Westhill do not want their district to be part of the city of Aberdeen. If, as the Secretary of State has assured us time after time, the reason for having different sized local authorities and different arrangements in

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