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House of Commons
Tuesday 30 November 1993
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Madam Speaker-- -- in the Chair ]
MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN --
Queen's Speech (Answer to Address)
The Vice-Chamberlain of the Household reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows :
I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I opened the present session of Parliament.
PRIVATE BUSINESS --
British Waterways Bill [
Lords ]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Promoters of the British Waterways Bill [ Lords ] may, notwithstanding anything in the Standing Orders or practice of this House, proceed with the Bill in the present Session and the Petition for the Bill shall be deemed to have been deposited and all Standing Orders applicable thereto shall be deemed to have been complied with ;
That, if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the present Session, the Agent for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by him, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the last Session ;
That as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be deemed to have been read for the first and second time and committed (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read and committed) ;
That all Petitions relating to the Bill presented in the last Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill, together with any minutes of evidence taken before the Committee on the Bill, shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the present Session ;
That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within the last Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph ( b ) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;
That, in relation to the Bill, Standing Order 127 relating to Private Business shall have effect as if the words "under Standing Order 126 (Reference to committee of petitions against Bill)" were omitted ;
That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the last Session. [ The Chairman of Ways and Means .]
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Oral Answers to Questions
EMPLOYMENT
Trade Unions --
2. Mr. McAllion : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what discussions he has held with trade unions relating to the rights of employees to trade union representation.
The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. Michael Forsyth) : I have had a number of discussions with the Trades Union Congress at which the rights of employees to trade union representations have been raised.
Mr. McAllion : The right of employees to establish and join organisations of their own choosing, including trade unions, is one of the basic freedoms that are available to workers around the civilised world. Why do the Government continue to deny that basic freedom to their own workers at GCHQ ? As January marks the 10th anniversary of the Government ban on trade unions there which was described at the time by the Tory Member for Hendon, North (Mr. Gorst) as the "nasty, thin wedge of fascism", is it not time that the Government got back to democratic basics by lifting the ban that has internationally isolated them in their anti-worker and anti-trade union bigotry ?
Mr. Forsyth : As the hon. Gentleman knows, the workers at GCHQ can join a staff association. Conservative Members will take no lectures on the rights of trade union members from the party that supported the closed shop and that only a year ago voted against the right for members to join a trade union of their choice.
Mr. Riddick : Does my hon. Friend agree that it is an absolute tragedy that 400 jobs have been lost at the Timex factory in Dundee ? Does he agree that the left-wing extremists there seemed to be more interested in trade union rights than they were in the maintenance of jobs, and that those people who were involved should be thoroughly ashamed of their job- destroying tactics ?
Mr. Forsyth : I agree that, unfortunately, the extremists in the trade union movement denied Dundee job opportunities at Timex, as before at Ford, and most people in the country and in Dundee would accept that inward investment depends on a good record of industrial relations. We have achieved that record thanks to the reforms that the Government brought forward, which were opposed by hon. Members opposite.
Unemployment --
3. Mr. Wigley : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what proposals he has to ensure co-operation between regions of the European Union in the common effort to overcome unemployment ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Michael Forsyth : Europe will overcome its structural unemployment problem only by becoming competitive and removing unnecessary regulation and bureaucracy.
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Mr. Wigley : Is the Minister aware that some areas in eastern France have lower unemployment than difficult areas of Wales, Merseyside, north-east England and Scotland, yet have higher inducements for attracting employment despite having a better infrastructure and being nearer to the heart of the European Community ? What mechanisms can his Department use to co-ordinate incentives to develop unemployment opportunities through the regions of Europe to ensure that there is not unfair competition against areas in Wales with higher unemployment, so that they get a fair crack of the whip ?
Mr. Forsyth : I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman should cite France a country which has a higher level of unemployment than Britain and where unemployment is rising when Britain is leading the Community on unemployment and where unemployment is falling. It is falling in Britain because of the supply-side reforms introduced in the 1980s by the Government, which were opposed by all Opposition Members, including the hon. Gentleman. The way forward for Europe in terms of jobs is not through subsidy, but by becoming competitive and abandoning the kind of nonsense that is included in the social chapter.
Mr. Ian Taylor : Has my hon. Friend noted that it is important for all regions in this country and elsewhere in the Community to ensure that unit costs of production and labour do not outstrip those of our competitor countries ? Since the beginning of the 1980s, unit costs of production in Europe have risen ahead of those in America and Japan, our big export markets. Can my hon. Friend ensure that the German Government continue to push in their presentation to the Commission their ideas, which are very similar to those advanced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment ?
Mr. Forsyth : I agree that we need to make Europe competitive to tackle the problem of unemployment in Europe. My hon. Friend is right to emphasise Europe's poor record in creating jobs. The United Kingdom has been among the most successful countries in Europe in that regard. Over the past 20 years, 36 million new jobs have been created in the United States ; only 8 million have been created in Europe, most of them in the public sector. The way to create extra jobs in Europe is to oppose the social chapter, and to make the European Commission understand that competitiveness depends on setting free enterprise free.
Mr. Alex Carlile : Bearing in mind that it is intended to cut the common agricultural policy by 50 per cent. over the next five years, can the Minister confirm that special attention will be given to rural areas such as Wales, where tens of thousands of jobs will be lost ? Will he give an undertaking that schemes will be prepared to produce substitute employment where agricultural begins to show signs of collapse ?
Mr. Forsyth : Is it not extraordinary that the hon. and learned Gentleman could not find time to say that unemployment had fallen by 17 per cent. in his constituency ? Is it not extraordinary that he did not recognise that Wales benefits from considerable inward investment, as does the rest of the United Kingdom ? It benefits from that investment because we have set aside the kind of policies that he would sign up to tomorrow, including the social chapter.
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Mrs. Clwyd : Can the Minister explain why Britain, which contains one third of the European Community's working children, is the only member state once again to opt out of an EC directive to protect 13 to 15-year- olds from working for more than 12 hours per week ? Is he not ashamed that the only victory that he has secured is for rotten employers who continue to exploit the hidden army of child workers as cheap labour ? For that lot,"back to basics" means back to kids up the chimney.
Mr. Forsyth : The Government took the position that they took because we thought it right for youngsters to have the chance to do paper rounds and Saturday jobs. I am sorry that the hon. Lady does not accept that. While she is talking about unscrupulous employers, she might look into the case of the Transport and General Workers Union, which sponsors her. According to The Mail on Sunday , workers at the seaside hotel owned by the Transport and General Workers Union are complaining that the TGWU gives them a deliberate eight-week break to circumvent employment legislation. Because their employment is interrupted in that way, they cannot be classified as full-time workers. The hon. Lady should look in her own backyard.
Working Hours --
4. Mr. Streeter : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what assessment his Department has made of the effects on British industry of a statutory maximum 35-hour week.
The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. David Hunt) : It would be highly damaging to British competiveness and jobs.
Mr. Streeter : Is my right hon. Friend aware that this afternoon he has confirmed my worst fears about the 35-hour working week ? It would lead to a dramatic increase in the employment costs of British businesses, which in turn would have a major impact on our competitiveness throughout the world. Would not that mean thousands of British workers being thrown on the scrap heap of unemployment ? What does my right hon. Friend think of any party leader who would sign up for that package ?
Mr. Hunt : A compulsory 35-hour week would mean passing legislation in the House of Commons that would prevent 14 million employees from working the hours that they now work and want to work. It would also impose costs of £20,000 million on British employers, as well as asking those 14 million employees to take a £20,000 million pay cut. It is the politics of despair, and I am shocked and surprised that the Opposition should sign up to such a damaging policy.
Ms Eagle : Is the Secretary of State aware of what is increasingly going on at the other end of the labour market ? There is an increasing prevalence of zero hour contracts, which mean that an individual is given a contract of employment with zero hours to fulfil and is then expected to be on the end of a telephone, to be called in at the whim of the employer, not knowing from one day to the next how many hours they will be expected to work. What effect does the Secretary of State think that that will have on British industry ?
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Mr. Hunt : I must tell the hon. Lady that, in the UK, there has not been a substantial increase in casual or temporary working. Those are the facts. [Interruption.] There has not been a substantial increase. The increase [Interruption.] Listen to the facts. The increase has been only 6 per cent. The number of permanent jobs in the United Kingdom now exceeds 20 million. The hon. Lady will not succeed in trying to portray a different picture from the one that is reality : that a greater proportion of the working age population are in work in the United Kingdom than in most other countries in the rest of Europe ; and that they do so at an average gross weekly wage of £316. That is because we are competitive and are winning new markets all the time.
Mr. Churchill : Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is quite difficult enough already for British and other EC workers to compete with Pacific rim countries, without putting the added shackle of a ball and chain around the ankle of every British employee ? Will he and our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister carry on spearheading the fight against this 1950s socialist mentality, typified by Mr. Delors and those on the Opposition Front Bench ?
Mr. Hunt : I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. It is positively ridiculous that, in this day and age, the Labour party and some socialists in the rest of the Community should believe that there is a definite parcel of work that can be divided between the available work force. We benefit in the UK because we have a flexible labour market. Why is it as my hon. Friend has pointed out that, in the UK, unemployment is falling, while in mainland Europe, in every country, unemployment is rising ?
Mr. Prescott : Will the Secretary of State accept my official copy of the European socialist manifesto, which makes it absolutely clear that any such changes in the working week will be imposed not by legislation but by agreement with the social partners ? Is he not aware that, in companies in the Netherlands, Germany and France, where such 35-hour agreements have been agreed, they have led to increased productivity and an increased work force, without a reduction in pay ? That is one reason why they have a higher level of pay and a lower level of unemployment than Britain.
Is it not true that, only last week, the Secretary of State himself refused to vote against the 48-hour week European directive, which means that it will be he who introduces legislation to reduce the working week ? Will that be in his European Tory manifesto ?
Mr. Hunt : First, I welcome the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) to the Front Bench. I also welcome the hon. Members for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) and for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron) and also the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile).
Mr. Canavan : Answer the question.
Mr. Hunt : I will. The trouble with the Opposition is that they do not know a compliment or tribute when it hits them in the face. I have to say to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East that I know that he has been doing his job for
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only a short time, but I have spent some considerable time reading through the manifesto that was distributed at the press conference.Mr. Prescott : Here is the official one.
Mr. Hunt : I know that the hon. Gentleman is trying to pretend that the French version is the more authoritative one, but I rely on the English version. Paragraph 32 says :
"These measures must include a substantial cut in working time to ensure a better division of the available work. Several approaches are possible : a working week of 35 hours or four days".
Already, the deputy leader of the Labour party in the European Parliament has said that the party will campaign on a 35-hour week. Either the document to which the Labour party signed up is not worth the paper that it is written on, or it is the most damaging document for the United Kingdom that I have ever seen. Instead of reducing unemployment, it will spread unemployment.
Mr. Jenkin : Is not the evidence clear that, where legislation of this type is imposed on a working population, higher levels of unemployment result ? Is not the evidence also clear that Britain is winning respect from its European partners by stating the case clearly, negotiating firmly and not backing down until we get the deal that we want ?
Mr. Hunt : I agree with my hon. Friend. First, no country in Europe has a statutory 35-hour working week at present. Secondly, we are winning respect from our partners in Europe in seeking to contest any rigid regulatory measures which would only stiffen up the labour market and stop unemployment coming down. Thirdly, it is a fact that, in the United Kingdom, unemployment is coming down. It is down 137, 000 so far this year, whereas on the mainland of Europe, it is rising in every country. My hon. Friend is right that people are listening more and more to the United Kingdom Government's message and the message of the Conservative and Christian Democratic parties, not the socialist message from the past.
VAT --
5. Mr. Denham : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what is his estimate of the number of jobs that would be lost as a result of the introduction of a 17.5 per cent. rating of value added tax on books and newspapers.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Miss Ann Widdecombe) : I am not prepared to speculate on matters still withinthe realm of hypothesis.
Mr. Denham : Is not that a most extraordinary and complacent reply ? Is it not the case that the imposition of VAT on books and newspapers has been widely canvassed as an option in the Budget, and that it has been estimated by the printing industry that the measure would cost 20,000 jobs ? Yet the Minister has not even bothered to estimate the consequences for employment.
How many other measures that may be announced this afternoon in the Budget have slipped through the Minister's fingers without any estimate of the consequences for unemployment ? Why on earth do we have Ministers for employment if they will not do their job properly ? Is there not one cut in public expenditure on
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which we can all agree getting rid of Employment Ministers' salaries because they are not prepared to do the job they are paid for ?Miss Widdecombe : The job that I am paid to do is not to be led into using the Department's investigation resources by the mere speculation of the Opposition. Why does not the hon. Gentleman confine himself to some facts ? Instead of spreading gloom and despondency, why does he not point out that unemployment in his constituency has fallen by 13 per cent. since January ? [Interruption.] I shall believe that the Opposition really care about employment when they greet questions like that with cheers.
Mr. John Townend : Does my hon. Friend agree that it is illogical for the working man to have to pay VAT on the boots and shoes that he needs to go to work, but not on The Sun , pornographic magazines or The Tatler ? Does she also agree that the printing industry has benefited from our industrial relations legislation, which has enabled it to cut its costs, more than any other industry ?
Miss Widdecombe : I suggest that my hon. Friend puts his question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer at an appropriate time.
Unemployment --
6. Mr. Dowd : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give figures for the total adult unemployment in Lewisham West on 1 January for each of the past five years ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. David Hunt : Since 1989, 3,747 ; 2,978 ; 3,966 ; 5,895 and 6, 904 respectively. Mr. Dowd : Is the Secretary of State aware that those figures show that, for every marginal decline in the numbers of unemployed in my constituency and across London as a whole, there has been a far greater increase in the numbers out of work ? Those numbers reveal not only the numbers out of work but the number of jobs that have been lost to London's economy since the Government took office. Almost half a million jobs have been lost to the London economy in the past 10 years.
When will the Secretary of State understand that the Government's two greatest failings are their economic policy and their inability to deal with that question ? No synthetic anger towards those who point that out to him will obscure that fact ; nor will his bogus enthusiasm for a recovery that has not touched London.
Mr. Hunt : So far this year, there has been a fall in unemployment of 231. The Lewisham jobcentre has placed 2,745 people into jobs since October of last year. I am saddened that the hon. Gentleman has not paid tribute to the tremendous amount of work being done by the South Thames training and enterprise council in providing opportunities to the long-term unemployed. The hon. Gentleman has not mentioned that the Employment Service has placed 190,273 people into jobs in the past 12 months, up 13.6 per cent. on the year before.
7. Ms Gordon : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment when he last met representatives of London local authorities to discuss unemployment.
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Miss Widdecombe : Although my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has not had any consultations with the local authorities, nevertheless they are in close consultation with the training and enterprise councils. Any request for a meeting would be sympathetically considered.
Ms Gordon : The Minister has boasted that unemployment in Britain is lower than in Europe. Will she tell that to my constituents in the east end, where unemployment is about 20 per cent., 25 per cent. in some places and 60 per cent. for young black males ? Will the Minister tell us the arrangements that are being made to ensure that east enders benefit from developments such as the Jubilee line and that they get the jobs created unlike other developments, which have left us with a net loss of jobs ?
Miss Widdecombe : The hon. Lady would benefit from a lesson from Martyn Lewis, which might give her constituents some other facts of equal relevance for example, 13.6 per cent. more people put into work by jobcentres, from which her constituency has benefited ; the advent of jobs, as she has admitted, from the Jubilee line, from Argos, from United Parcels and from Tesco-Metro. Why does not the hon. Lady bring hope to her constituents instead of always trying to depress young people who want to work and the long-term unemployed, all of whom our initiatives are helping ? Why does she not welcome those initiatives and back her local TEC and local employment services ? She should stop trying to spread gloom when there is obviously good news to be had.
Sir Michael Neubert : Again referring to Martyn Lewis, should it not be remembered that there 20,000 manufacturing businesses in London, and that London creates almost 20 per cent. of our national wealth and contributes £8.5 billion more in taxation than it receives from the Exchequer ? Will my hon. Friend continue to support measures that will enhance the potential of London as one of the nation's greatest assets ?
Miss Widdecombe : Yes. In addition to that good news, there is the winning of city challenge and all the potential that that has, and the fact that the highest number of people since records began left the unemployment register for London and the south-east.
Queen's Speech --
8. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what representations he has received about the Queen's Speech in relation to his responsibilities ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Thurnham : Is my right hon. Friend aware that unemployment in my constituency has fallen by 7 per cent. in the past year and by 34 per cent. in the past six years ? Will he urge our European partners to follow our successful enterprise policies and not the job-destroying socialism of the Opposition ?
Mr. Hunt : I agree with my hon. Friend. What has been remarkable about this Question Time is that every time Conservatives have pointed out the extent to which unemployment has fallen in the constituency of an Opposition Member, that has been greeted with a round of booing from the Opposition. It is clear that good news is bad news for them and that is a sad reflection of the lack
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of any policy on their part. My hon. Friend is right. Employers are responding more quickly to the upturn in the economy because of the flexible labour market. Long may that continue.Rev. Martin Smyth : What representations have been made concerning the fall in the number of unemployed disabled people ? What steps are being taken to remove discrimination against them ?
Mr. Hunt : I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we need to focus and target more resources on the disabled among the unemployed, particularly those who are long-term unemployed. He will be aware that, earlier this year, I announced some proposals to enable those people to gain greater access to work. I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman and to several colleagues on both sides of the House who have made representations to me concerning that scheme and the new dimension that it gives to extend the range of help to a wider number of disabled people. I am now considering those representations and I will make an announcement as soon as possible.
Unemployment --
9. Mr. Willetts : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what recent discussion he has had with his EC counterparts about unemployment.
Mr Michael Forsyth : My right hon. Friend and I have regular meetings with our EC counterparts, at which we discuss unemployment.
Mr. Willetts : Can the Minister confirm that Britain's unemployment rate is lower than that in France, Italy, Spain and across the European Community as a whole ? Does that not show that we have nothing to learn from Mr. Delors about curing unemployment ? They need to learn from us that deregulating the labour market is the best way to create more jobs rather than by piling new restrictions on.
Mr. Forsyth : I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is quite right to say that our unemployment rate is lower and also that our employment figures are higher than elsewhere in the Community. My hon. Friend is right to single out France and Spain, as they are the only two countries in the Community that have embraced the Labour party's minimum wage policy and they have paid the price in lost jobs.
Mr. Cryer : Does the Minister ever predict to his ministerial counterparts in the Common Market when he expects the Government's economic policies to bring the level of unemployment down to what it was in 1979 at just over 1 million people ?
Mr. Forsyth : If we were to take the hon. Gentleman's advice and embrace a minimum wage we would put 2 million extra people on the dole. If we were to take the Opposition's advice and embrace the social chapter, with all its nonsenses, we would put many more hundreds of thousands of people on the dole. The hon. Gentleman is in no position to lecture the Conservative party on jobs for the unemployed.
Mr. Paice : Will my hon. Friend continue to discuss with our European counterparts the voting basis for many of the measures that come from Europe ? Will he
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particularly continue to challenge hard the use of the health and safety provisions, under majority voting, to introduce what is no more and no less than socialist legislation, such as the working time directive ?Mr. Forsyth : I agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of ensuring that we do not add to non-wage labour costs in Europe, because the price will be paid in other people's jobs. I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that he seeks about challenging the abuse of article 118A of the treaty of Rome. I should warn my hon. Friend, however, that if the Labour party were ever to get into power it would remove the necessity for unanimity on matters concerning the labour market and thereby expose many people in Britain to unemployment needlessly as we became less competitive.
10. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what are the latest figures for unemployment.
Mr. David Hunt : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for asking that question. Last month, seasonally adjusted unemployment fell by 49,000 and now stands at 2,855,100, which is a fall this year of 137, 000.
Mr. Sle honesty about the unemployment figures ? Why does not the Secretary of State admit that there are 500,000 women who do not register who should be added to the figures ? There are another 500, 000 young men and women who have been thrown on the scrapheap of slave labour schemes, and more than 100,000 miners and others on special schemes. In Bolsover, some of those people do not figure on the unemployment benefit records. Let us have some honesty all round. If the Secretary of State wants the money to get the unemployed back to work, why does not he tax the rich rather than adding VAT to fuel and power ?
Mr. Hunt : I am sad that the hon. Gentleman did not welcome the fall in unemployment of 137,000 this year. [ Hon. Members :-- "Answer."] I will answer the question by referring the hon. Gentleman to the speech made by the Leader of the Opposition at the CBI where, for the first time, the leader of the Labour party acknowledged that unemployment is now below 3 million.
Mr. Hunt : The hon. Gentleman may say that it is not, but the leader of his party says that it is. In this, I believe the hon. Gentleman's leader because he was expressing the truth. Our statistics show the truth and it is about time that the hon. Gentleman acknowledged that.
Mr. Tredinnick : Does my right hon. Friend recall visiting my constituency 10 days ago when he was made aware of the importance of the hosiery and knitwear industries ? Does he believe that the competitive position of the industries with the far east will be enhanced if further working hour restrictions are imposed by Europe ?
Mr. Hunt : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is no doubt that the imposition of a statutory working week of 35 hours would prevent 14 million people in this country from working the hours that they want to work. Compulsory legislation of that type would undermine the
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competitiveness of key industries. That message came across to me loud and clear when I visited my hon. Friend's constituency.Health and Safety --
11. Mrs. Mahon : To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what recent discussions he has had with the TUC on health and safety issues.
Mr. Michael Forsyth : I have had several meetings with the TUC to discuss health and safety, the most recent of which was yesterday.
Mrs. Mahon : Is the Minister aware that since the Labour Government introduced the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 the numbers of people killed or seriously injured at work have been reduced dramatically ? How will workers taking their own toilet rolls and towels to work help British industry and resolve its problems ? Will the Minister tell the House whether the Government's proposals on the deregulation of health and safety comply with the EC directive ?
Mr. Forsyth : The Government have no proposals to deregulate health and safety. The deregulation review is being carried out by the Health and Safety Commission, which was established by the Labour Government. I am astonished that the hon. Lady seeks to attack the commission in carrying out that review. The hon. Lady's point about workers bringing their own soap and toilet rolls to work is fatuous nonsense in which the Government will have no part.
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