House of Commons Hansard Debates for 11 Jan 1994

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ago, I published a pamphlet urging appeals against over-lenient sentences. That was enacted as section 36 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.

One reason why there are so many lenient sentences--I know this because I practised in the criminal courts for nearly 15 years--is that the defence counsel makes a speech in mitigation and tells the court what a wonderful man his client really is and how out of character it was that he thrust the broken bottle into the poor victim's face. During that time, the prosecuting counsel sits down and says nothing, except, in a rather formal way, to draw attention to the man's criminal record. Prosecuting counsel should be under a duty to draw the court's attention to anything which suggests a more serious punishment.

We must also reconsider remission. A man who is sentenced to six years' imprisonment will probably serve only three. That is a fraud on the public. I have actually heard professionals in the criminal justice business say that it does not matter what the public think. That is a breathtaking piece of arrogance. Sentences should mean what they say, and there should be no remission for good behaviour. Our constituents do not have a reduction in their council tax for good behaviour, because good behaviour is to be expected. Bad behaviour in prison should be punished by an increase in sentence. Life imprisonment should mean life.

I welcome part VII, to take action against pornographers. We must take the profit out of pornography and use the powers in the Obscene Publications Act 1959 to seize pornographic material. That could be done on the balance of probabilities, not on the criminal burden of proof. That is the key. The police must be assisted by private contractors who can find warehouses where filth is being stored and bring it before the courts, and pornographers should pay the costs of that.

I welcome clause 68. Sex lines should not be controlled ; they should be banned. The public telephone system is no place for pornographic conversations.

The Foreign Office must renegotiate with our European partners the laws on pornography. It is quite unacceptable to our constituents for Euro filth to be beamed by satellite into British homes.

I welcome clause 27 on the right of silence. As the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) said, we are not abolishing the right of silence. We are not suggesting that the thumbscrews be brought back and that people be forced to speak. It is rather odd that, if a man is accused of drink- driving, he has to incriminate himself by giving a sample of blood or urine, and he is treated as though guilty if he does not do so. However, if someone is suspected of rape or murder, he can sit with his arms folded and say, "Prove it--if you can." One hon. Member has pointed out that we need to go further.

Under the current law, when asked at the trial, "Why did you not answer the policeman's question?" an accused person will say, "Because my lawyer told me not to." Therefore, we must place all lawyers under an obligation, when they tell their clients that they need not say anything, to tell their clients also that, if they do not speak, the jury will be able to form such view of their refusal to speak as seems appropriate to them.

This is an excellent Bill. I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary on bringing it forward, but there is still much more to be done.

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9.8 pm

Mr. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) : I do not know about other hon. Members, but I am fed up with naive comments, typified by some of the remarks of the hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Stephen). He suggested that one simply has to agree with the Government or be labelled pro- criminal. That is nonsense and it is no way to conduct an important debate.

I do not believe that the public are aware of the seriousness of some of the problems facing us or of how thin the blue line is. We must add to that the standards of behaviour and the moral values that are espoused by the Conservative party--"Me first, and to hell with the rest of society." It is no wonder there is increasing criminality. Our current problems are bound to follow.

The causes of crime are not dealt with by the Bill. Despite the opportunity of nearly 15 years to address the causes of crime, the only opportunities that exist as a result of the Government's actions are opportunities for the criminal. I remember the various poster campaigns for general elections since 1979. The first mischievous one of 1979 was that of the dole queue, and the lies associated with that, through to the most recent one about the "double whammy". I can imagine the campaign slogan for posters in the next general election. There will be the same innuendoes, but they will say, "Vote Tory and avoid crime." I think that that will be aimed at the criminal, not at the rest of society.

I recently spent a whole night shift with my local police force and saw some of the evidence of the problems that face us--a handful of young people with total disregard for the policeman or policewoman. I discussed at length the causes of that behaviour with the officers with whom I was assigned. They referred to a number of areas, all of which have a common link : an offender's confidence that he will not be caught ; even if he is, it will be pretty difficult to pursue the case because of the problems faced by the Crown Prosecution Service and the under-resourcing of magistrates courts. I shall refer to those matters in more detail in a moment.

I can adequately demonstrate that point by a case from my constituency, where the CPS is not prepared to pursue a violent offender who knocked down somebody with a vehicle and who has been witnessed committing violent crimes. The CPS is not prepared to pursue the case because of the difficulties associated with what it sees as a small-scale criminal. I see that person as a serious risk to society. It reflects the fact that the CPS takes the view that it cannot go any further because there is a greater need for more collection of evidence ; that comes back to the resources available to the police.

The magistrates in my constituency recently released a violent offender on bail into the local community simply because the Home Secretary failed to provide local magistrates with the necessary facilities to remedy that situation. We hear all sorts of promises, but no action. My hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. Byers) referred to the number of court hours available. I know, from my wife's experience as chair of a bench in a district in Cheshire, of the cuts that have been imposed on the magistracy in that area. The shortage of police was illustrated by my night out with the police force. The four villages of Neston, Parkgate, Burton and Willaston, comprising more than 100,000 people, had no direct cover from within the

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borough on that night while the officers with whom I was assigned were investigating a school break-in. I do not see that as a good enough response to the needs of my community.

For the rest of the night in the town of Ellesmere Port there were only five police officers on the streets. When I was involved in the arrest of three young men--I shall not refer to the matter in great detail because of the sub judice rule--there was no cover because all the police had to converge on the one spot. What happens in such a case? Is that really a good enough response to the needs of the community? The system around us is cracking. Public confidence is being eroded. Police, magistrates and the CPS have low morale. Indeed, in my view, it is at an all time low.

Let us look at some of the mistakes that have been made. I stress that it is no wonder that spectacular mistakes are made by the system, because shortcuts have been made. For example, I refer to the case of Paul Malone, to which I have referred several times before. He has now spent his eighth Christmas in gaol for offences that he could not have committed. I am not the only one to express that view. I have before me a sworn statement by a highly qualified forensic scientist who has been used on many occasions by the Home Office, for issues such as the shoot-to-kill policy. He is highly regarded. He has calculated, from the evidence that he has seen, that the height of the person who committed the crime does not correspond with the height of the person in gaol. In addition, the principal prosecution document has been shown to be fabricated.

The compounding of errors gets even worse. The first inquiry failed to bother to look at transcripts of the court hearing. The officer in charge retired mid-stream. The current inquiry is on its third lead officer. That level of incompetence and bad management goes back to the person at the top of the tree. The responsibility for it--the buck stops with him--belongs to the Home Secretary and nobody else. The common thread in all the issues-- the problems that I referred to earlier and the serious issue of the imprisonment of somebody in such circumstances--is the Government's unwillingness properly to resource criminal justice. We need to identify and tackle the causes of crime in a proper and positive manner and, when necessary, be tough--I mean tough--on proven offenders.

The Bill deals with some of the matters in which I have a particular interest, such as the use of science and technology. Those aspects of it are interesting and worthy of serious examination. However, it fails to address the fundamental issues on which I have touched. Therefore, I join my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) in urging the House to accept the reasoned amendment and to take the debate forward much more positively.

9.16 pm

Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) : It is clear from the debate that we are dealing with a poor Bill, ill planned and poorly drafted, which fails to deal with crime and miscarriages of justice. Those are two scandalous omissions.

The Bill's proposals fall into two categories. Some are helpful and capable of constructive amendment, and we shall try to achieve just that in Committee. Others try to address a real issue but offer wrong-minded or ineffective

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solutions, rather like a doctor diagnosing an illness and insisting on applying leeches when laser technology is available and more appropriate. With 15 Acts in 14 years dealing with criminal justice and many minor measures, why will not the Government take a balanced approach to such serious issues?

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Stephen) for acknowledging the co-operation between Conservative Back Benchers and Labour Front Benchers that helped the 1993 Bail (Amendment) Bill through its stages in the House when the then Minister had geared himself up to kill it off. We now have the prospect that the prosecution will be able to appeal against the granting of bail when there is clear evidence that a mistake has been made.

We shall take an equally responsible approach to straightening out the confused proposals in the Bill. I share the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Shoreham that the Government have delayed implementation of that Act, when these measures already apply in Scotland. There are no excuses for delay and I hope that the Minister will assure us that it will be implemented immediately.

I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Shoreham said that not enough money was available to pay for all the steps that we would like to take to prevent crime when people were already paying a tax for crime. Some people are paying up to 30 per cent. more for their car insurance and between 20 and 30 per cent. more for their home insurance because of the effects of crimes that the Government have failed to prevent--that is for those who have insurance, or who can afford it. The suffering, as well as the taxation that is, in effect, provided by the failure to tackle crime, is a serious issue. I share the concern of the hon. Member for Shoreham about the failure to tackle drug abuse and I published my own analysis last year, warning of the growing size of the problem. I agree that legalising drugs would be a diversion and that we need to tackle crack trafficking. It is crazy to end drug education projects and to cut the treatment of drug addicts in the community, steps which can diminish this scourge in our community, and all the other work that we need to do to avoid the individual, family and community breakdown which the threat of drugs offers us. Why are the Government undertaking those stupid actions at the present time?

With regret, I see little sign that we will have such a constructive approach from the Government Benches as was achieved during the debate on the Bail (Amendment) Act 1993 on some of the issues with which we are dealing today. The Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, the hon. and learned Member for Burton (Sir I. Lawrence), was at his sycophantic best today. One would almost think as he spoke that he regarded rising crime as evidence of Conservative success.

Not from him came a word on the Government's failings. Indeed, there was not the sort of care which the hon. and learned Gentleman used to show, for instance, in 1988 when the right of silence was dealt with far more carefully by Ministers in respect of Northern Ireland. At that time, the hon. and learned Gentleman said : "for all its thinness and ruined state, the right to silence is still one of the significant linchpins of an accusatorial system and we should be cautious about abolishing it."--[ Official Report, 8 November 1988 ; Vol. 140, c. 212.]

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The hon. and learned Gentleman also criticised the Government at that time for rushing through "an ill- considered measure." What do we have today but an ill-considered measure? The Home Secretary irresponsibly has thrown aside the evidence and the conclusions of a royal commission, instead of taking the sensible conclusions which it had offered after careful and extended thought.

We ought to see more balance from other Government Members. If the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Shersby) is so concerned about bail bandits, why did he and the Government not support Labour party proposals on Report? Those measures could now have been in place had the hon. Gentleman and the Government not voted against them. If the hon. Gentleman is serious in his declarations of support for the police, he must be more willing to put pressure on the Home Secretary and to be less partisan in his rhetoric. The hon. Gentleman also referred to computer graphics, and he should remember that he is supporting an initiative which is sponsored on an all-party basis by seven hon. Members.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton), who took the lead among other hon. Members to bring that matter to general attention. Those concerns are shared, the problem is enormous and we need to work together to defeat that threat to decency. We seek to improve that part of the Bill and to include the proposal of confiscation which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Mrs. Roche) during the debate.

Against that background, it was incredible that the hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Hawksley) had the foolhardy audacity to criticise the Labour party's record. The hon. Gentleman justified part I by referring to the lack of places to send young people. Why did not he criticise the Government for undermining the system of community homes with education on the premises? Why did not the hon. Gentleman criticise the Government for the fact that therapeutic facilities like Peperharow, which succeeded in working with some of the most difficult young people, are now closed?

The hon. Gentleman asked when the places dealt with under part I will be available. He is right to do that, as it is an important question which the Home Secretary failed to answer. Before becoming a Member, I campaigned for secure places to end the scandal of young people being held in adult prisons because there was nowhere else for them to go. My right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) campaigned vigorously after the suicide of a constituent in prison. Eventually, the Home Office Minister, who is now the Secretary of State for Education, promised the necessary places, although he would not say when those places would be made available. That promise was made in February 1991, during debates on one of the many Criminal Justice Bills. Not one of those places has yet been provided. It is right to ask the Minister to tell us when those places are to be made available. Let us not have the prevarication that we have had from Ministers at the time of the last announcement.

Reference was made earlier in the debate to the availability of secure places. During the period from 1 August 1993 to the end of October 1993, there were 475 requests for secure places. During that time, 113 vacancies arose. That is the scale of difficulty that was referred to by my hon. Friends during the debate--so much for the

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Government's determination to provide what is needed to check youngsters when they need to be in secure accommodation.

The Government could do many other things. At about 6 o'clock in the morning during the Consolidated Fund debate just before Christmas we discussed a problem that has been highlighted by police officers throughout the country, from constables and sergeants to chief constables, who are angry and frustrated at being let down--as they see it--when the Crown Prosecution Service fails to take a prosecution through to success. That is happening at a time when reported crime is up 124 per cent. while, under this Government, there has also been a staggering 15 per cent. drop in the number of cases coming before Crown courts in the past year.

Yes, there is plenty that the Government could do if they had the determination, and it would not even require legislation for them to get on with the job and make many of the changes, but they have failed to do so.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) referred to offences committed by those "imbued" by the values of the Government--people who were brought up during the Government's time in office. He is absolutely right ; those offences have led to the burdens on police to which he referred.

The Government's impact, in undermining initiatives undertaken by local authorities, is enormous. For the past few years, the Conservative party has been slaughtering the youth service, which used to help young people to adjust to the society in which they were growing up.

Reports written during the second world war, the first world war and even the last years of the 19th century all emphasised the need for a youth service that was able to work with young people so that they could be brought up with values that would enable them to take a full part in society.

Mr. Tim Devlin (Stockton, South) : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that in the past 10 years the growth in violent crime and theft has been greater in France than in the United Kingdom. As France had a socialist Government until early last year, would he say that socialism has failed the youth of France in the same way?

Mr. Michael : Opposition Members have been waiting all evening to contribute to this debate, yet a Member like that can wander in off the street and make that sort of inept and stupid contribution. The Government who are responsible in this country should be tackling crime in this country. I must tell the hon. Gentleman--

Mr. Devlin : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that you can confirm that I have been present throughout much of the debate and that my name was on the list to speak. Therefore, would you ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his rather pathetic remark and to answer the question?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : That is not a point of order for me. The hon. Gentleman is responsible for his own speech.

Mr. Michael : I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that my observations are confirmed by many of my right hon. and hon. Friends. That is the sort of diversion that we are coming to expect from the Conservatives. They--not least the Home Secretary--are afraid of debating crime and of facing up to their responsibilities--

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Mr. Howard : If the hon. Gentleman does not want to be diverted, why does he not give a straight answer to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Devlin)? [Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The House must settle down.

Mr. Michael : I did not answer because I was interrupted by a point of order and I naturally respected the Chair's need to respond to it. Conservative Members have made a fatuous attempt to say that crime has risen more in other countries, which has been disproved and challenged.

Let us come to the real issues in the debate. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Gorton said, the problem is that most criminals are not caught. The Home Secretary fails to recognise that the Government preside over a system in which only 2 per cent., or one in 50, of the crimes committed end up with someone being punished by a court. Yet the Home Secretary concentrates all his efforts on what happens in court.

The Opposition have made it clear time and time again--we have contributed constructively to amendments to the law--that we want those who are brought to justice to be dealt with properly. We also, as the reasoned amendment makes clear, want crime to be prevented. Ministers have continually failed to look at the facts and to understand what is happening. What can we expect when even the Prime Minister wants to "understand a little less"?

A year ago, the Home Office told the Home Affairs Select Committee that youth crime was going down. Eventually, it revised that opinion because Labour's analysis showed what Labour Members, local communities and the police knew all along--that youth crime had been rising, especially in relation to burglary and car crime. I am glad to have the support of the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, South-West (Sir A. Grant) in this endeavour. Technology and protection can help in tackling the problem of car crime. However, the causes of crime need to be tackled as well. Burglary and car crime now comprise 53 per cent. of crime in England and Wales. Yet those are the very crimes, which take up so much time of the police, that would be cut if the Home Secretary accepted our advice and the propositions in our reasoned amendment.

Why will the Home Secretary not take measures that would stop people becoming victims? He made the spurious claim of being interested in the victims of crime. We have already embarrassed him into increasing his low level of support for Victim Support. He said earlier that he was proud of providing £10 million a year. He knows that £16 million a year is necessary to provide a comprehensive victim support service in every part of England and Wales, as well as a witness support scheme in the Crown courts. Only the Crown courts are covered, so it is not an over-ambitious aspiration. By the end of 1997, the Home Secretary will still only have reached the level of £11.7 million, which is not good enough. With the penny-pinching attitude that causes the Government continually to undervalue volunteers, the capacity to give adequate training and back-up is not being provided.

Then there is the criminal injuries compensation scheme. As was rightly said by my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair), the proposals are an insult to the victims of crime. They replace a proper scheme of compensation with a system of fixed payments

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which take no account of the individual circumstances of the victim and which will fail miserably to compensate those who miss work for weeks or months as a result of violent injury. Rape victims, those who have been most seriously hurt and thousands of others will lose out under the proposals. The proposals have little support anywhere within the criminal justice system.

Another way in which to help victims would be to speed up our courts system, which we propose in the reasoned amendment and which we shall pursue in Committee. The Home Office has told those who have sought to help it that amendments to speed up the criminal justice system are not included in the Bill because there is not room. What a ridiculous proposition, especially when a working party has spent months getting proposals ready.

I put it this way. Each of us accepts that if we punish or correct our own children, we do so today. We do not wait until tomorrow or for many months. We could improve matters simply with a legal framework for cautioning plus, which ends up with rapid intervention for youngsters who start getting involved in trouble. We could help by having pre-trial reviews and by speeding up, with great clarity and transparency, the system in the courts. We advanced those propositions in the Committee stage of the previous Criminal Justice Bill. They were voted down by the Conservatives only six months ago. Will they support us in the endeavour this time, as the Home Secretary seems to think that he might consider those ideas? During the debate on the previous Criminal Justice Bill, we made a more comprehensive proposal to deal with ticket touts. The Conservatives voted it down. We shall seek to improve the propositions before the House this time.

My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, East (Mrs. Prentice) referred to the low clear-up rates. I pay tribute to the Metropolitan police and to a number of police forces throughout the country for recognising the need for the local partnership approach that we recommend in the reasoned amendment, which would hand back local communities to the people who live in them. On more than one occasion, we have proposed such a legal framework, which would be welcomed by the police and by local authorities, and which would give real strength to such local partnerships. I wish that the Home Secretary would take that proposal seriously. That is part of the strength and depth of the reasoned amendment on which the House will vote later.

Mr. Michael Bates (Langbaurgh) : Is the hon. Gentleman familiar with the response to my right hon. and learned Friend's 27-point programme, announced at the Conservative party conference, from Richard Coyles, the chairman of the Police Federation? He said : "My message to the Home Secretary is what you have proposed is first-class. It will help tremendously in the fight against crime." Is the chairman of the Police Federation right or wrong?

Mr. Michael : I have spent a considerable time talking to police representatives, including the chairman of the Police Federation, and I believe that the hon. Gentleman will find that second thoughts led to less enthusiasm being expressed. The chairman of the Police Federation said that he was extremely concerned about what the Home Secretary was not doing. The hon. Member for Langbaurgh

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(Mr. Bates) has fallen upon the sword by seeking support from the police. They are suspicious of the Home Secretary's weak approach and the fact that he has gone for headlines rather than reality. It is not surprising that the Home Secretary has failed to answer the simple question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield, who asked whether he believed that any of the measures in the Bill would cut crime. The answer is that the Home Secretary does not believe it himself. How can he inspire confidence?

The Home Secretary said that he had been out with a local watch scheme to walk around its area. It is nice for the Home Secretary to go out at night and I offer him another opportunity to go out with the South Wales police, as I have done, on to the streets of the capital city of Wales on a weekend night. He will see exactly how thin the blue line is drawn. The right hon. and learned Gentleman should contemplate the fact that that problem is faced by other police forces in cities and towns throughout the country. The chief constable of South Wales police has said that he needs extra finance next year above the 5.5 per cent. that the Home Office says is necessary. The Secretary of State for Wales has, however, limited the capacity of Welsh local authorities to provide above a 1.75 per cent. increase in contributions. The Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Wales are refusing to sit down with the local authorities and the police authority to discuss the chief constable's proposition. That refusal will lead to a crisis in policing in south Wales and the closure of police stations. That is an absolute scandal. The right hon. and learned Gentleman and the Secretary of State for Wales must face up to their responsibility for that. I am referring to a specific example, but I know that other right hon. and hon. Friends, who represent every town and city, will be able to cite similar examples in coming months. Conservative Members will also have to face similar problems in their communities.

The Home Secretary has tried to say that he is interested in supporting the police, but his record is appalling. He has reneged on the Conservativea' election promise to increase police numbers by 1, 000 this year ; instead, he has delivered a cut of 224 in that number. He has promised a Mickey Mouse figure of 3,000 extra police by cutting paperwork, but the police have ridiculed that figure, because they know that he will not give the cash for the new technology which is the starting point for cutting that paperwork. That means jam tomorrow and no action on crime today.

I hope that when the Minister of State replies to the debate he will apologise for his recent disgraceful behaviour. Last week the Prime Minister said that "back to basics" was not about personal morality but about public policy. That is a welcome change from the emphasis placed on that policy by the Minister at the recent launch of the report on juvenile justice by the Children's Society. The Minister turned up too late to hear the introduction to that report or to listen to the deep concern expressed on behalf of the society by the Bishop of Worcester. He brushed aside all that the report said about the need for the Government to take a positive constructive initiative on juvenile justice and he attacked the Church for not preaching individual morality.

In fact, individual morality is preached about every Sunday in every church in the land, but that is not news. What is news is that the Church, like the police, has identified a deep malaise in our society which arises from

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the break-up of our community on which I have commented. What is news is that the Church, the police, the Labour party and many other commentators share the view that we need to balance individual responsibility with the responsibility of the Government to create the right framework of incentives, of rewards and of punishments that effectively create a contract between the individual and society. Unless we get that balance right, the malaise will deepen. While Ministers may continue to blame everyone but themselves, their pronouncements will be of no use or benefit to the victims of crime or to the community at large.

The real test tonight is whether Conservative Members will stop treating crime as a political football and welcome our constructive proposals, or turn them down again. If they vote against our reasoned amendment, they will reject a statutory framework for crime prevention, effective measures to prevent crime, measures to create safer communities in a safer Britain, measures to tackle youth crime, steps to tackle drugs and drug-related crime, steps to tackle truancy, new laws to tackle racial harassment and violence and measures that will put the victims at the heart of the criminal justice system. They will reject measures to limit access to dangerous weapons, the independent judicial appointments commission and an independent authority to investigate alleged miscarriages of justice. That is what the Minister and the Home Secretary will vote against if they reject our reasoned amendment tonight.

9.43 pm

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Maclean) : The Bill is the centrepiece of the Government's legislative programme for this Session. It carries into action the lion's share of the extensive proposals which my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary announced in October, and it will achieve a criminal justice system that protects the public and not the criminal.

There have been two clear messages from the debate today--first, that there is widespread and genuine concern about crime levels, not just in the House but across the country ; and, secondly, that it is only on this side of the House that there are positive and effective ideas for reform.

The hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) says that the Labour party is prepared to get tough on crime and criminals, but where is the evidence? The hon. Gentleman has not produced one policy proposal to get tough on crime. Perhaps he thinks that if he tells us often enough we will all believe that it will come true. It takes a lot more than that to convince the House and the country.

Today, the hon. Gentleman told us of his new, decisive approach. Faced with this important and comprehensive Bill, what will he do tonight? He will abstain. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary called the hon. Gentleman a weathervane. He is wrong : at least a weathervane ends up pointing somewhere. Watching the Opposition Front Bench--

Mr. Blair : Why does not the hon. Gentleman resolve the matter by accepting our reasoned amendment, which contains perfectly reasonable measures, and then we can reach agreement?

Mr. Maclean : My right hon. and learned Friend has made the point that it is a feeble amendment and is a load of rubbish that adds nothing to the Bill.

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Watching the Opposition Front Bench this afternoon reminded me of the three vultures in Walt Disney's "Jungle Book", sitting there with eyes open and talons out.

"Hey Flaps, what are we going to do?"

"I dunno, what d'ya want to do?"

"OK, so what are we going to do?"

"Dunno."

That is what we have seen from the Opposition Front Bench today. I loved that Walt Disney classic, but I did not think that I would see it again so soon. What a typical Labour party shambles. Labour Members do not know which way to turn.

Mr. Blair : The hon. Gentleman says that we do not know what way to turn. I have told him that if he supports our reasoned amendment we shall deliver the Bill through Second Reading. Why will not he support it?

Mr. Maclean : I have already told the hon. Gentleman that we consider the points in the reasoned amendment to be practically worthless and that it contains nothing to deal with the essential issues facing the House or the country. The question is whether the hon. Gentleman will still abstain if his reasoned amendment is defeated tonight. Will he and his party sit there not able to vote against the Bill but scared to vote for it because the lobby groups will hound him?

At least the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan), in his quick rattle through the Bill, covered all the points and said why he was in favour of some and against others. He asked where was the Criminal Cases Review Authority. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has told the House that we are committed to the measure and will produce a consultation paper setting out the issues. The solutions that we propose and any practical problems that need to be settled will be in that paper. A great deal of work is needed, for example, to establish the proposed authority's constitutional position, its relationship with the courts, the police service and others, its powers and proceedings and its criteria for selecting cases for investigation and referral to the Court of Appeal. The hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland also asked about the Law Commission report--

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Maclean : No. If the Opposition spokesman had left me the appropriate amount of time to respond, I would be able to take more interventions.

It is unrealistic of the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland to expect the Bill to include proposals from the Law Commission's report on personal violence, which was published just before Christmas.

My hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie) raised points about the law of consent. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Sir I. Lawrence) and my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton) raised points about capital punishment. The House will be interested to know that the Government consider those matters to be issues of individual conscience. If amendments are selected, the Government will permit free votes on the Government side on both matters. We propose that both debates should take place on the Floor of the House. Time will be made available for any such debates at a relatively early stage in the

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Committee proceedings. Any debate on capital punishment will be taken by the Government to be the once-per-Parliament debate. Three clear principles run through the Bill. First, protection of the public is the first duty of the Government. It must come before anything else. Secondly, the police should have all the powers that they need to prevent crime and to catch criminals. Thirdly, the balance of the criminal justice system must be tilted further against criminals and in favour of protecting the public.

The Bill covers wide ground. It is not purely about courts, as the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) suggested. It is about combating terrorism, juvenile crime and rural crime. Of course it is about court powers and procedures, too. But it is also about bail, police powers, the treatment of witnesses and the laws governing pornography.

The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) said that the Bill contained trivial minutiae. They might be trivial minutiae to the Labour party, but all the matters that I have just mentioned are vitally important to all the constituents of Conservative Members. On every one of those matters the balance has been shifted to ensure that the public receive the protection that they need and deserve.

Mr. Kaufman : To my constituents, a rise of 265 per cent. in the rate of crime since the Government came to office is not trivial. It is not trivial that my constituents are afraid to go on to the street, open their doors or drive their cars. What will the Minister say to my constituents who are suffering the worst crime rate in Britain's history?

Mr. Maclean : Exactly. So the right hon. Gentleman should vote for the Bill. He should have voted for the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, the Criminal Justice Act 1988, which introduced the power to review lenient sentences, and countless prevention of terrorism measures, which Opposition Members refused to support. In every one of the matters that I have mentioned, the balance has been shifted to ensure that the public receive the protection that they need and deserve. On every one of those matters our position is crystal clear and Labour cannot say whether it agrees or disagrees. Thank goodness for my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Shersby), who has put on record the strong support of the Police Federation for the Bill and the measures that we are introducing.

Some hon. Members have referred to juvenile crime. Current laws clearly fail to protect the public. There is clearly a problem with persistent juvenile offenders, as many of my hon. Friends have pointed out. A few persistent offenders can be responsible for a vast amount of crime and the police and the courts must have the powers to stop them.

Mrs. Bridget Prentice : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Maclean : No. I have many points to pick up from the debate and I must go on.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) made some interesting points. I welcome his suggestion that the voluntary sector should work with us on secure training units. I have met members of that sector and am keen to encourage them.

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The description by the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) of young hooligans running riot on housing estates in his constituency was the best argument for the Bill that I have heard from the Opposition. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join the Government in the Lobby tonight.

My hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Hawksley) welcomed secure units. We want them built as soon as possible, but I cannot give my hon. Friend a firm timetable as it depends on the Bill's pace through the House. I have also noted what my hon. Friend said about foreign trips. We have asked councils responsible for such trips to show common sense. We shall watch carefully and take suitable action if common sense does not prevail. We do not want laws to be ignored by anyone and clause 45 will be enforced.

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