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Mr. Howard rose -- [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker : Order. The House must come to order now. Mr. Howard It is astonishing how reluctant the Labour party is to take seriously the safety of people on our streets and in their houses, and the extent to which the active citizen can make a contribution towards achieving those objectives.
Mr. Michael : I assure the Home Secretary that he is being watched. Does he not accept that patrolling our streets is part of the job of a constable, which demands training and expertise?
Our derision is not for those good citizens who, out of fear and frustration, patrol the streets, but for the Home Secretary who fails to support the police. He is putting at risk those who undertake such patrols, and other citizens, too. Why has a Home Secretary from a party that promised 1,000 extra police this year delivered a cut of 224 instead? We hear constant promises of support for the police, but the citizens to whom the question refers would be in bed at night if the Home Secretary would only deliver that support.
Mr. Howard We have fully discharged our manifesto promise to increase police numbers. If I have failed to support the police, why did the chairman of the Police Federation say about my speech in Blackpool,
"My message to the Home Secretary is that what you have proposed is first- class. It will help tremendously in the fight against crime"? The people who patrol the streets of Sandwich do so not out of fear and frustration but out of a public-spirited concern for their community that the Labour party will never understand.
Police
13. Mrs. Gillan : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police officers will be returned to operational duties by his plans to cut paperwork and to reduce the number of police middle managers.
Mr. Charles Wardle : That is a matter for chief officers to determine in the light of the particular circumstances of
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their own forces, but my right hon. and learned Friend has made it possible over time for some 5,300 police officers to be redeployed to front-line operational police duties.Mrs. Gillan : I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Will he tell the House what support he has had for the proposals and is he aware of the many forward-looking police forces that are developing computer software programmes, which are now cutting administrative burdens and putting more police officers back on the beat?
Mr. Wardle : My hon. Friend will be aware that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has received widespread and enthusiastic support not only for those two reform proposals, but for all his police reform proposals, because they will provide a modernised and more effective organisational structure, allow chief officers the freedom to deploy financial resources as they see fit--whether on equipment, on computer technology or on personnel--and allow for free-standing budgets that cannot be poached by local authorities. More officers with less paperwork will be getting out from behind their desks to the beat on locally focused operational duties. They will help to prevent crime, tackle crime where it occurs and protect the public.
Ms Glenda Jackson : If the reduction in paperwork is bringing such enormous benefits, why is my constituency of Hampstead and Highgate threatened with the removal of 22 police officers? Surely one of the quickest ways to bring peace of mind to the elderly who are indeed under threat in my constituency is by not only retaining the present number of police officers but increasing it.
Mr. Wardle : As the hon. Lady will know, the deployment of police in the Metropolitan area is a matter for the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. Judging by the hon. Lady's concern, I am sure that she will support the Bill concerning the police in its passage through the House.
Mr. Dickens : Does my hon. Friend accept that if we are to get to grips with law and order, we cannot always leave it to the police, but must rely on measures such as those introduced by the Home Secretary yesterday and we must rely on the judiciary to give hobnail-boot sentences and not carpet-slipper sentences?
Mr. Wardle : My hon. Friend provides a powerful endorsement of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill. He is also absolutely right to point out that it is partnership which matters in the fight against crime and crime prevention between community groups, members of the public and local authorities working with the police.
Police Recruitment
15. Mr. Clapham : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will lift the freeze on police recruitment in the next financial year.
Mr. Charles Wardle : There is no recruitment freeze. Forces remain free to recruit up to their authorised establishment.
Mr. Clapham : I hear what the Minister says, but does he agree that although the police are free to recruit, they need to be supported by resources? In his reforms of the police, will the Home Secretary consider that they need
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further resources, will he ensure that those resources are available and, in making those resources available, will he take into consideration the partnership that needs to be forged between the police, the local community and local authorities?Mr. Wardle : That is precisely why the police spending provision will increase next year by 4.4 per cent., precisely why 279 extra police posts have been approved in South Yorkshire since 1979--an extra 10 per cent.--and why, since 1979, across the country we have some 16,600 more uniformed police officers.
Mr. Lidington : Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government's policy of giving chief officers control over the budgets for police officers and civilian staff will enable those chief officers to deploy resources more efficiently in the circumstances of the regions for which they are responsible?
Mr. Wardle : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. At present, we have an out-dated system by which police chief officers have to express every bid for extra money in terms of additional uniformed posts. Now, as my hon. Friend rightly points out, chief officers will have the flexibility to decide how they spend their budget.
Operation Cheetah
16. Mr. Parry : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the total cost of Operation Cheetah on Merseyside to date ; and whether the inquiry is continuing.
Mr. Charles Wardle : Merseyside police expect the total cost of Operation Cheetah to be approximately £2.2 million. The inquiry is now at an end.
Mr. Parry : Is the Minister aware that the chairman of the Merseyside police committee has expressed concern at the number of hours that have been spent on this investigation? Is the Minister satisfied with the liaison between the Merseyside police and the Crown Prosecution Service?
Mr. Wardle : In that case, no doubt the chairman of the police authority will make his feelings known, as I am sure he has, to the chief officer. It is for the chief officer to allocate resources and to deploy officers on operational matters. It must be the responsibility of the police to investigate such allegations.
Mr. Matthew Banks : Does my hon. Friend agree that wherever there is suspected wrongdoing on Merseyside it is entirely right for the police to investigate it?
Mr. Wardle : My hon. Friend is right and that is precisely what the police did.
Departmental Efficiency
18. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to improve the efficiency of his Department.
Mr. Howard : Steps to improve the efficiency of the Home Office and its services include market testing, contracting out, computerisation, better purchasing and greater productivity.
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Mr. Thurnham : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the whole way in which his Department is working now demonstrates the effectiveness of what he is doing and that the new measures which he has announced are exactly what people are looking for?
Mr. Howard : I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I am sure that he is right. I am gratified by the widespread support that I have received from the public for the measures that I am putting in place. It is a great shame that the Labour party could not support them on Tuesday.
PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mrs. Gillan : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 13 January.
The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major) : This morning, I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
Mrs. Gillan : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the statement by Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein calling for the clarification of the Downing street declaration is just a sickening attempt by the IRA's apologists to shuffle the responsibility for their evil campaign of terror and fear? Is it not time that they faced up to their responsibilities and grasped the challenge of adopting the democratic path?
The Prime Minister : I think that my hon. Friend speaks for many millions of people in this country and throughout the island of Ireland. I welcome in particular the recent statement by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume), making clear that he sees no excuse whatever for continuing violence and appealing for people to devote themselves exclusively to the democratic process. As the Taoiseach and I have made clear on a number of occasions, the joint declaration is not an invitation for renegotiation. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and I have gone to great lengths in this House and beyond it to ensure that the joint declaration is fully understood and we shall, of course, continue to do so. We still await a positive response from the IRA.
Mr. John Smith : Will the Prime Minister unequivocally condemn the gerrymandering and wilful misconduct which has cost £21 million of taxpayers' money in what his party has described as a flagship council?
The Prime Minister : Let me say unequivocally to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that if the reported allegations about the council turn out to be true, of course I condemn such activities just as I would condemn malpractice in any council, wherever it occurred. It would be wrong to comment on this case while the auditor is still considering it. The auditor operates independently of Government, has full powers to pursue his inquiries and I have no doubt that he will continue to use them to the full. We should wait and see precisely what the outcome may be. Otherwise, we are in danger of assuming that people have committed malpractice until they are proved innocent. I would think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman, who is a barrister, would recognise that that is no way to pass judgment.
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Mr. John Smith : Does the Prime Minister recollect the frequent endorsements that he and his colleagues have offered to Westminster city council, in particular the comment by the Secretary of State for Employment, that Westminster council was one of the Tory's stunning successes and a source of cheer for every Conservative? Taking everything into account, does the Prime Minister think that those endorsements were wholly wise?
The Prime Minister : I have just made it perfectly clear to the whole House that the district auditor's report contains a number of serious allegations. At this stage, they are allegations. There is now a perfectly proper legal process by which the allegations will be examined in depth and the truth arrived at. The district auditor has been at pains to stress that his findings are provisional. I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should wait until those findings are confirmed before he is so swift to judge.
Mr. John Smith : Does not the Prime Minister appreciate that the matter has now been investigated for four years, and what is revealed is a devastating example of financial corruption and an abuse of power by senior members of the Conservative party? Cannot he at least condemn that?
The Prime Minister : I have already made it clear that if the allegations are confirmed, I will condemn unreservedly. But, as has been made entirely clear, this is the start of the legal process. Unlike the right hon. and learned Gentleman, most people will prefer to wait until that is completed and not find people guilty until and unless they are proven to be guilty. That is a cardinal principle of British law which I commend to the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
Q2. Dr. Spink : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 13 January.
The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave some moments ago.
Dr. Spink : Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming yesterday's sharp fall in unemployment? Does he recall that one year ago the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) predicted that unemployment would rise month after month? Therefore, will my right hon. Friend invite the hon. Gentleman to make another such prediction?
The Prime Minister : Most people would probably settle not for another prediction but for an admission from the hon. Gentleman that he got it wrong again and again and again. I very much welcome yesterday's fall in unemployment, which means that the number of unemployed people has fallen by nearly a quarter of a million over the past year. Of course, it is still too high, but the fall of nearly 47,000 on top of the falls in recent months suggests that we are now seeing a continuing downward trend in the level of unemployment. We are the only western European nation to have low inflation, an economy that is growing and unemployment that is falling significantly.
Mr. Ashdown : Does-- [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker : Order. The House must come to order. There is impossibly bad behaviour today.
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Mr. Ashdown : Does Lord Justice Scott still enjoy the confidence of the Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister : It was the Government who set up the inquiry and gave Lord Justice Scott the freedom to pursue it as he thinks fit. I have no adverse comments to make on the way that he is doing it.
Mr. Streeter : Does my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the £20 million contract won by Plymouth-based British Aerospace (Systems and Equipment) Ltd. in December, further boosted by a share in the £50 million contract announced by the Ministry of Defence yesterday? Is that not a fine illustration of defence contracts boosting and sustaining British jobs? Can my right hon. Friend confirm that if the Liberal policy on defence were followed, those defence jobs would simply not exist and many people in the west country would be out of work?
The Prime Minister : I am, of course, delighted at the contracts to which my hon. Friend refers. It is certainly the case that if the reductions in defence expenditure advocated by the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) or, indeed, the Leader of the Opposition were carried into force, the implications not only for our capacity to defend ourselves but for British industry, not least in the west country, would be very profound. It would be a reassuring change if the Leader of the Liberal party were to say the same thing in the west country as he says elsewhere.
London Hospitals
Q3. Mr. Corbyn : To ask the Prime Minister what plans he has to make an official visit to a London national health service hospital.
The Prime Minister : I shall be making a series of visits around the country, during which I intend to include NHS hospitals, as I have in the past.
Mr. Corbyn : In his visits around the country, will the Prime Minister undertake to explain to Londoners why more than 150,000 people are on hospital waiting lists? Beds are being closed and wards are being taken out of operation, and one night in Bart's hospital more than 30 people had to sleep on floors or on trolleys because there was not sufficient space for them. Are not the Prime Minister's policies of the internal market leading to more and more closures and losses of bed space as the crisis and the chaos get worse? Is not it time for him to intervene to scrap the internal market and give Londoners the health service which they need, deserve and demand? Is not that a basic right?
The Prime Minister : We are certainly seeking to give Londoners the health service which they deserve. In addition, we are seeking to improve dramatically primary health care in the capital and that has been evident for some time.
The hon. Gentleman neglected to mention in his catalogue the dramatic reductions in the times which patients wait for hospital treatment. Since the reforms have been implemented, the number of patients who have been waiting for more than a year has fallen from around 120,000 to just over 70,000, and that figure is on a declining trend. The hon. Gentleman will know of expenditure which has been made in his own area's district
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health authority. He ought not to underestimate the work that is being done to improve the health service for all the people who live in London.Engagements
Q4. Mr. Milligan : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 13 January.
The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Milligan : Is my right hon. Friend aware of the work that is being done in Eastleigh to develop a safer door lock for trains? Such a lock could have averted some of the 300 deaths which have occurred during the past 20 years when passengers have fallen out of trains. Will the Government encourage British Rail to invest in the new technology which would not only save lives on the railways but would also save jobs in my constituency?
The Prime Minister : My hon. Friend may know that British Rail is actively considering the technical feasibility and the
cost-effectiveness of the system to which he refers. I know how important the decision is for my hon. Friend, and I know how hard he has worked on behalf of his constituents. British Rail is examining the matter at the moment.
Mr. Kaufman : On November 10 1992, the Prime Minister, together with the Attorney-General, announced the appointment of Lord Justice Scott to conduct his inquiry. Will the Prime Minister now express his full confidence that Lord Justice Scott is conducting the inquiry fairly, particularly since he is due shortly to appear before Lord Justice Scott? Is the Prime Minister confident that he will be treated fairly by Lord Justice Scott? Will the Prime Minister repudiate the scurrilous attack on Lord Justice Scott by Lord Howe?
The Prime Minister : I know that it has been a quite noisy House this afternoon, but I seem to recall answering that question a few moments ago. I will reiterate to the right hon. Gentleman that the Government appointed Lord Justice Scott to conduct an independent inquiry. It is therefore for him to draw up his own procedures and it is not a matter for the Government to comment on those procedures. I have no adverse comments to make upon those procedures, as I indicated a few moments ago.
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Q5. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 13 January.The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Mr. John Marshall : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the continued incarceration of Ron Arad is quite unacceptable? Will he give the House an assurance that the Government will maintain their efforts to secure his freedom?
The Prime Minister : I can certainly give that assurance, and we will continue to support efforts to free Mr. Arad. We have raised the case on innumerable occasions with the Iranians, the Syrians and with any others who may be able to help. On his visit to Israel earlier this month, the Foreign Secretary met members of Mr. Arad's family and assured them that we will continue to do what we can to help. My right hon. Friend gave them our warm sympathy for the pain and suffering which they must feel at present.
Mr. Beggs : Will the Prime Minister give us an assurance today that whether or not the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic proceeds to interpret, elaborate, explain or, indeed, encourage Sinn Fein-IRA to respond to the Downing street declaration, he will stand by it and that he expects members of Sinn Fein-IRA to cease their campaign completely and indicate that they will lay down their arms so that they can enter the democratic process?
The Prime Minister : I certainly wish to see them unreservedly and permanently end violence and then enter into exploratory talks that can lead to them taking part in the democratic process. I reiterate again : we are not in the business of clarifying the declaration. The declaration is clear. What is intended by Mr. Adams in his present activities is to seek bit by bit to draw the Government into negotiation upon the joint declaration. That is not on offer to Mr. Adams now. It will not be on offer to Mr. Adams in the future. If he wishes to enter into discussions, he knows how he may do it. He can decide to give up violence. After three months he can enter into exploratory talks. Then he will be able to enter into the democratic talks process itself. That is the route ahead. The only question that needs to be asked is not of the British Government or the Irish Government but of Mr. Adams. Will he stop the violence and enter the democratic process or will he not? Everything else is fudge.
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