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much time sucking up to its own members to try to justify its own existence. It should tackle problems that are a great deal more difficult rather than having a go at hon. Members, who are on its side.Mr. Jenkin : Is my hon. Friend aware that the requirement to allow the live transportation of animals is damaging the reputation of British food producers by allowing diseased animals into this country? In areas surrounding and within my constituency, pig blue ear disease has re-emerged as a problem as a result of the transportation of live animals.
Mr. Marland : I must be more careful about giving way so readily--I was coming to that myself.
We are proud of the high quality of our livestock. We export much pedigree livestock--race horses, breeding stock and dogs. Britain has a fine reputation for high-quality livestock. It is most important that we seek to maintain and, where possible, improve on those standards.
What can the Government do to seek to maintain the high standards of livestock in this country? As my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin) said, there is evidence that we are importing diseases. We appear to be doing so from Europe--I suspect from eastern Europe. An in- calf heifer in eastern Europe costs £100, but in Gloucester market it sells for £1,500. I have an auction catalogue from Gloucester market. Twelve French Hostein Friesians--it says that they are French and I have no reason to doubt it ; they were definitely imported--and 15 six-month-old Dutch-bred Holstein Friesian calves were being auctioned. We do not know where they were treated or whether there was any relevant information in their accompanying documents, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North said, disease is being imported and it causes substantial difficulties for our farmers. If there is an outbreak of disease, who pays?
I have details of a recent warble fly outbreak near Stroud which was traced to imported cattle that had not been dressed against warble fly. All cattle within three miles of the outbreak had to be treated. In total, 34 farmers had to treat their cattle. It cost one farmer more than £500, but who pays? In the end, of course, farmers have to pay, but they are not happy about it because it adds to their costs. If the problem is caused by careless importation or careless categorisation of cattle, action should be taken. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister is aware of the issue because my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has spoken about it--more power to her elbow for doing so.
Tuberculosis in badgers is also a problem in some parts of the country. I again pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister for his efforts to devise and improve trapping techniques for badgers. Badgers spread tuberculosis to cattle and if infected badgers are found on a farm that farm is "shut up". The farmer is unable to sell his produce because of the possibility of tuberculosis in the stock. I know that my hon. Friend is aware of the problem and is doing something about it. I am sure that all my hon. Friends will be delighted to know that he has received many compliments in Gloucestershire and the west country for his efforts, and I thank him, too.
I deal now with the vexed question of milk marketing at home and, one hopes, abroad. Even if we are not self-sufficient in milk, which we are not, there is no reason why a well-run milk industry should not be able to
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maximise business at home and export at the top end of added value products, which is what we produce. That is how wealth is created--one adds value and tries to sell added value products abroad so that one imports only low value added products. That leads to a positive balance of trade with our partners in Europe and further afield. Changes are taking place, but they engender concern and that is nowhere more evident than in the reorganisation of the milk marketing boards and Milk Marque. The farmers and processors need to work together, but things are not going too well. I compliment my hon. Friend the Minister on his Department's handling of the consultative process involving the milk marketing board's proposals and its willingness to continue the consultation even when things are not going as smoothly as they might.The milk marketing board has gone back to the drawing board. The Department's willingness to continue to listen to farmers and other interested parties is much appreciated. My hon. Friend has acted prudently in taking heed of the key issues raised by those who responded during the consultation because they realise that their efforts have not been in vain. They realise that the Government listen to what people have to say and the Government are getting the credit that they deserve.
No one wants to see 60 years of the milk marketing board or 50 years of local farmers supplying, for example, the Cotteswold dairy in Tewkesbury, which I recently had the privilege of visiting, overturned in five minutes.
Mr. Jenkin : It is a good dairy.
Mr. Marland : It is indeed a good dairy. I am grateful for my hon. Friend's support. I am sure that the directors of the Cotteswold dairy will be pleased to know that the dairy has another supporter in the House. It is only one example and I am sure that there are many other local dairies that hon. Members could mention. If they wish to do so, I should be happy to give way. One cannot overturn 50 years of tradition and successful trading merely because the milk marketing board is about to change its role slightly. We must handle the change with kid gloves.
It has not been easy for my hon. Friend and his colleagues to send back the milk marketing board's proposals for further consideration. It would have been easier for them to approve the scheme submitted by the milk marketing board and leave it to be sorted out by the competition authorities and the European Commission. After two years of Milk Marque, the European Commission will hold a review and sort out any problems. It would have been much easier for the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to have left it to other authorities to deal with the matter, but my right hon. Friend the Minister is to careful and too good a Minister to walk away and leave things in an unsatisfactory state ; and a jolly good thing, too.
Leaving the problem to others would have led to Milk Marque being undermined by the competition authorities just as the milk marketing board has been, which would have further undermined the United Kingdom dairy industry. It would also have shaken the industry's confidence, made it less easy to fulfil the home market and probably made it more difficult to export high value added products, which is what we want to achieve. Any other course of action by the Ministry would not have been in the interests of the producers, processors or consumers of milk.
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A few of my constituents who are milk producers think that Milk Marque should be able to take all that it can unto itself and to blazes with everyone else. I am trying to do my best to persuade them to take a more realistic view of life and to explain that that is not how it will work out. I hope that I am winning.However, the main concern about the milk marketing board's proposals is that those involved want more openness. They want Milk Marque to talk straight and not to try to steal a march on them. They need to know exactly what they are dealing with to ensure a smooth relationship. They want a far less complicated selling and allocation system for milk than that being proposed by the milk marketing board, which has different levels of service and supply and a range of price options about which little detailed information is available. Milk Marque has also been trying to bounce processors into early contracts, which is thoroughly unsatisfactory.
Milk Marque must state the price that it wants for a steady supply of milk rather than try to coerce processors into a range of price and service alternatives. It is highly likely that Milk Marque will get up to 75 per cent. of the milk from farms and it must act responsibly. The whole point of the changes is to free the market and if Milk Marque tries to keep all that milk to itself, we shall not get very far. If Milk Marque is behaving in this way even before the game has started, I do not hold out much hope for the future. We are not dealing only with the short term. Producers need processors who in turn need customers in the United Kingdom and elsewhere. They should have a smooth business relationship, not one in which one party tries to hold the other to ransom. Anyone who is or has been involved in business knows that it is a partnership. There is always a tomorrow and one needs a smooth relationship with a satisfied customer. Everyone must make an effort to fulfil his part of the bargain.
There is also concern about the milk marketing board's proposals for haulage. The processors do not want the single option of milk at a delivered price. Many have large fleets of vehicles that they want to use not only for themselves--
Mr. Kirkwood : They want to export.
Mr. Marland : Perhaps they want to use them for export, but they also want to reduce the costs of operating their vehicles. It is important that they should have the opportunity to do so. If the processors want a delivered price from Milk Marque, that is fair enough, but if they want the option of collecting the milk themselves, it should undoubtedly be available to them.
We should also consider traceability. In today's world of "duty of care", it is important that the processors should know precisely where the milk has come from and that it has been tested by their own standards, because if they are held accountable, they must be allowed to know where the milk has come from. It is blurring the issue to say that they would test the milk and that it would all be delivered in good order. I am sure that it would be, but the processors want to know precisely what has happened to the milk.
We should consider the distribution of assets of the milk marketing boards, too, as my right hon. Friend the Minister has already recognised.
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Mr. Kirkwood indicated dissent .Mr. Marland : If the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire wants to intervene, he should do so. However, I wish that he would shut up quibbling.
Mr. Kirkwood : The matters that the hon. Gentleman is raising are important, but I am struggling to work out what Milk Marque and the milk marketing boards have got to do with the exportation of milk.
Mr. Marland : I want to see the processors and the value-adders in a position to sell high-value products abroad. They need the raw material and Milk Marque is seeking to hedge round its supply of milk to the processors. Does the hon. Gentleman understand the point that I am trying to make? It is straying a bit far from exports--
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. We cannot have semi-private conversations between two Members.
Mr. Marland : Between us, I think that we have made the point and sorted it out. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
It must be ensured that the distribution of assets is fair and reasonable to all concerned. The distribution of assets applies not only to any accumulated cash that the milk marketing boards may be holding on behalf of their members, but to any future value to milk producers in enterprises such as GENUS and national milk records. Although it is widely put about that those two enterprises have no value today, who knows what could develop in the hands of an upwardly mobile company?
Concern has also been voiced about the possibility of Milk Marque seeking to get back into milk manufacturing. If that co-operative collects 75 per cent. of the nation's milk, the temptation to return to manufacturing could be more than Milk Marque would be able to resist. We must make absolutely sure that that is not allowed to happen, because if it does, we shall be back to square one and the present situation with the milk marketing board.
Obviously, there is concern among farmers, manufacturers, and the boards' employees and shareholders, as well as their customers, about what the future holds. Certainly, there is disappointment that the original vesting day of 1 April will not now be achieved. I hope that 1 July, the next date that those involved have in their sights, will be achieved. The milk marketing board has been a little naughty in trying to gather for itself more than it should have done and has tried to corner the market before the game has started. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Minister has sympathy with that view. The question of a regulator was widely discussed in Committee. I ask my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to pass on to our right hon. Friend the Minister the fact that there is great concern in the market and that the appointment of a regulator for the first two years of operation of Milk Marque would be a great help. Sir Terence Beckett is the present regulator and I understand that it would be acceptable to all concerned if he were asked to stay on for a further two years if he would do so. I wish my hon. Friend on the Front Bench and his partners in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the best of luck in sorting out that difficult situation and I hope that some of my remarks may find favour with them.
As my hon. Friend the Minister knows, my constituency covers the royal forest of Dean. There are opportunities in
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forestry for us to export timber as well as import it if we have a proper, well-run forestry industry, although we are big importers. I am not saying that we do not have a well-run industry, but there are opportunities for more domestic production, which would be a big import saver. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary is aware that the forestry review group, which was set up by his Department, has been asked to examine three aspects of forestry in Britain : timber production, environmental impact and recreation.First, how efficient is timber production ? Can it be improved or increased or can more value be added to the raw timber produced so that we can have more success in exporting value-added products ? Mr. Kirkwood indicated assent.
Mr. Marland : I am glad that there are nods of assent from the Opposition Benches. Any Government should ask their various Departments to consider the way in which they are operating to see whether they are functioning as efficiently as they can. We should ensure that the Forestry Commission is run as efficiently as possible.
Secondly, the environmental impact of some of the large, dark blocks of Forestry Commission land with acres and acres of conifer trees is not a pretty sight in some parts of the country. That should also be considered. The felling and replanting of forestry land should be done as aesthetically as possible. Are those who currently run our forests doing what they can to support bird and flower life ? In the royal forest of Dean we have verderers, whose important duty it is to look after the flora and fauna and deer there. I am pleased that my noble and learned Friend in another place has recently dicussed with the verderers whether matters are satisfactory and whether there was any threat to the future of the royal forest of Dean from the forestry review group.
Perhaps the most controversial of the aspects which the review group has been asked to consider is recreation. That is important to the public and I know that many hon. Members share my view. It is important that we should take account of the thousands of people who enjoy the freedom to roam, cycle, bird watch, have picnics, go camping or whatever else people do in the estate of the Forestry Commission. The Forestry Commission is good at encouraging such activities. It has extremely well-organised camp sites and picnic sites in my constituency which are all beautifully signposted. It has built barbecue pits and has taken a great deal of trouble and time to ensure that its visitors are well looked after. There is immense support throughout the country for the activities of the Forestry Commission and it is widely respected. Two local employees of the Forestry Commission in the forest of Dean were recognised in the recent honours list for their work for the organisation and I am happy to pay tribute to that work and to them.
Since 1981, the Forestry Commission has been empowered to sell standing timber. There is considerable concern among many of my constituents that when the Forestry Commission sells off part of its estate, the freedom to roam and that access will be denied by the new owners. I know that that concern has been registered with my hon. Friend and I hope that when the review group reports, some attention will paid to that. I have no argument with the Forestry Commission standing on its feet. It is, after all, a £3 billion enterprise.
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I must once again draw hon. Members' attention to the forest of Dean, whose unique status was recognised by the House in 1981. The legislation passed to enable the Forestry Commission to sell off standing timber also stated that it could not sell any part of the ancient forest of Dean and I am anxious that that should remain the case. In fact, I put it on the record that I have not been sent here by my constituents to see the Government privatise the royal forest of Dean and I shall not stand by and let it happen. I am anxious that there should be no misunderstanding, so I shall repeat that : I have not been sent here by my constituents to see the Government privatise the royal forest of Dean. I worked hard to ensure that the uniqueness of the forest was recognised and to get the Forestry Act 1981 passed and I warn my hon. Friend the Minister that if the Government ever seek to privatise the forest, or to go back on that commitment, I shall be left with no alternative but to fight them tooth and nail--Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. Could the hon. Member enlighten me as to how that relates in any way to exports?
Mr. Marland : I keep emphasising, for the benefit of the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire, that I feel that a well run-- [Laughter.] --industry can add to our opportunities to export timber and dairy products. Perhaps, in the interests of greater efficiency, some tightening up of the way in which the Forestry Commission is managed may be necessary, but it is my earnest hope that the forestry review group will recommend that the maintenance of the status quo is the right way forward. I know that I am not alone in that aspiration because many other hon. Members in the House-- [Laughter.] --and their constituents share that view--
Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. This reminds me of my teaching days, when small boys dissolved in helpless giggles. I thought that we had moved on from there, but evidently not.
Mr. Marland : You will be very pleased to hear, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we are moving on now. I shall turn more directly to the subject of exports and the Department of Trade and Industry. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and I spend as much time as possible in the countryside. We know that two professions have done more than any other to care for it--the farmers and the metal recyclers, who have been around longer and done much more for conservation than the present group of trendy, woolly hatted environmentalists. Fair enough, metal recyclers have made money out of stopping the dumping of old cars in ditches, but so have farmers. The export of processed metal, in the form of furnace feed, is now big business for the United Kingdom, but there is a cloud on the horizon which may inhibit the trade's development. I am bringing that to my hon. Friends attention so that he can pass it on to his opposite number in the Department of Trade and Industry.
The export of furnace feed from the United Kingdom is big business and represented the movement of about 4 million tonnes of material last year, which brought in foreign currency to the value of about £300 million. There are no controls on the export of furnace feed from the European Community to third countries, but the fact that the material has been wrongly catalogued by Customs and Excise as waste has led to a serious threat to the business.
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Since the mid-1980s, many countries have become aware of the disposal of hazardous wastes from developed to developing countries, which is often done in dubious circumstances. While companies engaged in that activity usually operate outside the law, their activities have focused minds--not least those of members of Greenpeace--on the problems of hazardous waste disposal. Much more attention is now paid to any cargo classified as waste, whether hazardous or not. The Basel convention has dealt with the problem and drafted rules for the disposal of hazardous waste, especially waste that crosses international borders. The convention also sought to distinguish between hazardous and non-hazardous wastes such as furnace feed. However, even for non-hazardous waste, the bureaucracy is horrendous. The likely administrative and bureaucratic delays could cause serious interference in legitimate trade in that material. This country is a signatory to the Basel convention and the rules are generally a sensible precaution when applied to hazardous material, but they can be a nightmare when applied to non-hazardous wastes. As Greenpeace is having trouble distinguishing between hazardous and non-hazardous cargoes because they are simply labelled as waste, it also sometimes causes unnecessary difficulties.The European Community is trying to frame rules to control the trans- frontier shipment of waste, but while it is doing so I urge my hon. Friend to persuade the Department of Trade and Industry to note the anomalies that are being created, which may damage the trade in recyclable material.
On the subject of exports--you will be relieved to hear that, Madam Deputy Speaker--of reusable materials, I refer to the trade in second-hand clothing, which is an astonishing business and is one that is worthwhile in every aspect. Quite apart from the admirable thrift of the business, it saves natural resources. The textile and clothing recyclers work hand in hand with many charities. The industry is labour intensive and employs many people, some of whom would have a hard task finding work elsewhere. The industry supplies many people in this country with inexpensive clothing, often through car boot sales or market stalls. It supplies textile wiping cloths to industry and a huge amount of raw material for furniture filling, carpet underlay, insulation, blankets and even car dashboards. The advantage of the material is that it does not burn readily or give off noxious gases when it does burn, so hon. Members will realise how popular it is and how responsible it is of furniture manufacturers to use the material to stuff cushions and the backs of their comfortable furniture.
However, third-world countries are the main source of sales for sorted reusable clothing. They buy such goods from this country by the container load and it is a valuable trade, but there is an alarming development. Elsewhere in Europe, certain charities are trying to block such exports by arguing that they harm the economy of the importing country. Informed opinion shows that nothing could be further from the truth. The inhabitants of third-world countries are desperate for the clothing. That is not a problem for United Kingdom textile exporters at present,
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but I want to make my hon. Friend aware of the problem in case it develops here, too. I hope that he will pass on the information to the Department of Trade and Industry.Mr. Marland : I thank my hon. Friend.
I accept that I have made a diverse speech on agriculture and exporting. I earnestly hope that some of what I have said will be heard in the higher echelons of Government and that my hon. Friend the Minister will pass on the messages that I have sought to give him.
Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance on a matter that I consider to be very important. Will you bear with me while I try to explain a little? As we heard yesterday, the auditor has made a statement about his findings concerning Westminster city council. During his statement he made it quite clear that, under section 30 of the Local Government Finance Act 1982, criminal sanctions are applied to anyone who received or discloses information or the full report, which was given to certain named people. I also gather that a case which has a grave bearing on the matter--Bookbinder v. Tebbit--made clear what is meant by the statement in section 30(1)(a) of the Act, which clearly states that no information shall be disclosed except
"with the consent of the body or person to whom the information relates".
That case made it clear that it is not sufficient for one person alone to give permission to release information, but that everyone concerned must give their permission. I understand that members of the Press Gallery have received copies of the full report and perhaps others have as well. I consider that to be a criminal breach and I ask you for your guidance and recommendation, Madam Deputy Speaker. Several hon. Members rose--
Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. The duties of the Chair may be onerous, but they do not extend to a definitive interpretation of the laws of the land. If the hon. Member seeks that, I am quite sure that the serried ranks of barristers will be only too happy to give him an opinion. As he will know, the ultimate authority is the court.
Mr. Jenkin : Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker : There can be no further point of order. It is not a matter for the Chair.
Mr. Jenkin : It is a separate point of order.
Madam Deputy Speaker : The hon. Gentleman will have to be ingenious.
Mr. Jenkin : As a result of the auditor's statement yesterday, widespread press coverage has been given to his allegations. They remain only allegations at this stage, however, and they do not constitute a comprehensive accusation. He has said only that he is minded to bring criminal proceedings. He specifically says that he has not cast any doubt on the characters of those named in his report.
Given that some of the press coverage is reporting those allegations as though they were a judgment made against the people named, may I ask for your guidance, Madam
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Deputy Speaker? Would it be appropriate to ask the Attorney-General to make a statement about the unfair reporting of those allegations and the likely miscarriage of justice that may occur because of the unfair coverage?Madam Deputy Speaker : The hon. Gentleman has made his point, but it is not a matter in which the Chair can interfere.
11.31 pm
Mr. Stuart Bell (Middlesborough) : I will refrain from commenting on those points of order, although the Opposition would welcome an appearance by the Attorney-General so that we could have a short debate on the auditor's report.
I greatly enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Marland), just as I enjoyed his speech on insider trading the other night. On that occasion he gained the respect of the House with a forthright and incisive intervention on Lloyd's. Today, his speech ranged far and wide in relation to the trade gap in food and agricultural products. It was nice to note, however, that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food gave a commitment, from a sedentary position, that the royal forest of Dean would not be privatised by the Government. I assure the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West that, in the event of a Labour Government, we would not export the forest. We would ensure that it stays where it is, in comfort, so that it can give pleasure to his constituents and many others for years to come.
The hon. Gentleman made an important and valid point about import penetration in relation to food and drink. That is the other side of the coin from exports, but it is all part of the balance when one talks about exports and their value. The hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Alexander) said that exports were worth £10.2 billion last month, but their value must be compared with the level of import penetration. The hon. Gentleman referred a great deal to the level playing field, aided and abetted by the hon. Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin). I take the view that the level playing field is nothing short of a literary allusion, and that in terms of economics it is a delusion. I shall elaborate on that later. The Minister did say, however, that he had taken on board the strictures of his hon. Friends about that level playing field.
The hon. Member for Newark has rendered a service to the House by having this debate today. Friday debates are sometimes better than those during the rest of the week. Lloyd George made his name in the House during such debates. I tend to think that they are of a better standard because they are able to range far and wide, in a spirit of objectivity rather than combativity.
The hon. Member for Newark made an interesting point about the hours worked by exporters. I remember talking to one major exporter who said that the test of the great exporter is whether he decides to take up the chance to do business in China on 23 December. That exporter must decide whether to leave Britain for a meeting on 23 and 24 December and to stay for a further 10 days to conduct further negotiations. That expample reminds me of the younger members of my party who come to me and say that they want to get on in politics. I reply, "Would you like to address the North Shields Fabian Society on 24 December?" Judging from the response, I can decide
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whether those people are serious in their intent. The business man to whom I referred decided to go to China on 23 December and spent 10 days there. He won a major contract and was told that he may be invited back there next year, at the same time. The hon. Member for Newark was perfectly right to refer to the hours worked by exporters, because they are the people who make it all possible.The hon. Gentleman also referred to the statement in the Budget that further reductions will be made in the export credit guarantee premium. The Department of Trade and Industry was right to vaunt that Budget statement. The President of the Board of Trade was able to obtain so-called substantial reductions only for a limited number of markets in Argentina, India, Mexico, Poland, Slovakia and Turkey. He was unable to offer the same reductions in premiums for China and the Pacific rim, of which we have heard a great deal today, or for Malaysia, to which the Prime Minister recently led a delegation. The premiums should be reduced for those markets, because we need to compete with our French and German counterparts. No doubt there will be further discussion of that today.
It is true that the Budget offered cover of £3.2 billion for 1996-97 on export credit guarantees for the so-called amber zone markets, covering China, Malaysia, South Africa and Indonesia. We need to do more, however, for our exporters through those export credit guarantees.
The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) mentioned his concern about the GATT rules on the textile trade and how they will develop. The accord reached in Geneva before Christmas is the first step along the highway of trade, because bilateral discussions between the European Union and the United States, within the framework of GATT, must be concluded to reach agreement on subsidies for civil aircraft. That is a matter of interest to all our civil aircraft manufacturers. Negotiations will also be conducted on financial services, including those connected with Japan, and on labour services, shipping and basic telecommunications. It is clear that the GATT round is far from complete.
The endorsement reached before Christmas was important, but negotiations are still continuing within the old GATT round. The new World Trade Organisation, which will come out of those negotiations, has still to have its structures and membership defined and its work programme agreed to. It must also agree a new programme to initiate negotiations on conformity in relation to common standards for professional services, beginning with accountancy. The endorsement reached before Christmas is just one stage of a lengthy process, because the implementation of the new tariffs will not come into effect before July 1995.
This is the first time I have appeared at the Dispatch Box opposite the Minister. It is always a pleasure to see him. In times gone by we shared a flight from Paris to London. I must tell the House that I am a little dubious about the invitation offered by the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire to the Minister. We shared that flight, but we had separate seats. We did not hold hands on the aeroplane
Mr. Soames : Or when we got off.
Mr. Bell : No, we kept away from each other. Although I am happy to see the hon. Gentleman here, I am sorry that the Minister for Trade is not present, although he has
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explained why he cannot be here and his reasons are perfectly acceptable. I am sorry that he is not here because he has a good tale to tell on exports. He has played a significant role in the past 18 months and I am grateful to him for letting me see his Department's programmes and how the Department is working. He has shown me a great deal of work on partnership with exporters : how exporters face the challenge of global world trade and the opening up of markets as far away as China, his rolling business plans, his market-by-market approach, his "Priority Japan" campaign, and his north American campaign. Those are all significant programmes. The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire said that we can always do better in exports, and we must do better.I am sure that the House also misses the presence of the former Minister for Trade, Mr. Alan Clark. Those of us who followed his career and read his diaries with interest know that he was Minister for Trade for some time. I read in his diaries that at one stage he visited Bulgaria to boost exports. He saw a set of garden cane furniture that he liked, bought it for $270 and had it shipped to England. Although that was a great boost to the Bulgarian export trade, I am not sure what he did for British exports on that trip. However, the Bulgarians were happy with him and delivered the furniture to his castle home in Kent. We can thus see that Ministers for Trade work hard on foreign missions.
Mr. Jenkin : I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's amusing story, but does it not contain the kernel of a much more serious point? It is in our interest, and that of Europe as a whole, to import from eastern Europe. Is it not more important to work hard to open up trade between eastern and western Europe than to allow the European Community to remain a protectionist fortress so far as eastern European economies are concerned? It will be impossible to stabilise politics in eastern European countries unless they can develop their economies by exporting their much cheaper goods to us.
Mr. Bell : That is an interesting point. It touches on the point made by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West, who made an important speech on behalf of his constituents. As the hon. Member for Colchester, North said, products from eastern Europe are cheaper than ours. We therefore have to explain to our constituents why cheap steel and other products are flooding into Europe from the east and doing down our export programme.
Three points can be made in answer to the hon. Gentleman's intervention, although it is always a mistake to say that there are three points because one invariably forgets the third. The third point is that the hon. Gentleman referred to the "European Community" rather than the European Union. There are two ways to proceed in relation to eastern Europe : first, to invest in those countries to develop their economies ; secondly, in so doing, to open our own markets to their products.
As the hon. Gentleman implied, we are moving in an area of trade blocks : the European Union, the so-called "Pacific rim", and now the American free trade area. There is therefore a danger of those three trade blocks developing and becoming protectionist. I hope that I have responded to the hon. Gentleman on that important point.
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Not surprisingly, until recently, under the Administration of the past few years, neither exporting nor manufacturing has been particularly valued. Exporters have told me and many others that Government policy was working against their interests. Export credit premiums were increasing and cover was becoming harder to obtain. The pound was also overvalued in the exchange rate mechanism, which had a serious impact on our exports.We have welcomed the change in emphasis in the past 18 months and the fact that the Government have accepted not only the Opposition's criticism but many of the policies that we would have carried out. But however hard the Department of Trade and Industry works, and however well meaning it is, the influence of the Treasury looms over the Department. The hon. Member for Newark discussed exports to Kuwait and said that the Treasury was in danger of undermining the confidence and stability of exporters, and we endorse that significant point.
The Treasury has recognised its shortcomings in that area and announced before Christmas that it sought to reorganise itself by setting up a new directorate to handle policies affecting industry, including education and employment. Although that will be useful, it does not deal with the main question that has come from a centralising Government who, over the years, centralised themselves in the Treasury.
We had a chance to do a lot of reading in the recess and read all the memoirs, diaries and autobiographies. In his autobiography on the so-called Thatcher years, Lord Lawson vaunted the accretion of power to the Treasury, but that power is so extensive that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury can have a view on whether angling certificates should be issued by post offices. We therefore see that the Treasury has extended its influence and authority into every Government Department.
We welcomed the visit of the President of the Board of Trade to Japan last week. He must bow and curtsey to the Treasury each time he wheedles out of it additional export credit guarantees. The Minister for Trade can say how the overseas aid provision has been saved. Labour is often accused of being interventionist, but who has played a more negative interventionist role than the Treasury in the past few years? Who has put forward the view that manufacturing, the balance of payments and import penetration do not matter? Who has said that, so long as the balance of payments deficit can be covered across the exchanges, exports do not matter either? Treasury Ministers standing at the Dispatch Box, with the First Lord of the Treasury in the shape of the former Prime Minister, have led the way in that philosophy. Although that position has changed somewhat, over the years we have seen the dead hand of Treasury intervention lying across our industrial and productive sectors, and therefore across our exports. The true overseer of our economic imperatives should be the Department of Trade and Industry, not the Treasury.
The true assessor of what is required, both in terms of assisted aid and export credit guarantees, should be the Department of Trade and Industry. Our assisted trade provision is not only good for our large exporters : there is a three-way benefit--for the United Kingdom economy, for the exporter and for the developing country.
Mr. Jenkin : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way to me yet again. It is true that during the 1980s the Government correctly ceased to bias their assistance
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against the service sector. There was a rapid increase and development of this country's service sector which had previously been underdeveloped. Can the hon. Gentleman give an example of a Minister ever saying that manufacturing did not matter? That is a myth.Mr. Bell : It is not a myth. It was often said--
Mr. Bell : During the years when the hon. Gentleman was not here, but his father was. If one reads Lord Lawson's autobiography carefully one can find many places where he makes that assertion. The hon. Gentleman is right that the service sector should be strengthened. The service sector and the manufacturing sector are not mutually exclusive. The manufacturing sector matters. The Government--including the Minister for Trade and the Prime Minister--have said from the Dispatch Box in the past 18 months that manufacturing matters, but for 10 years the role of the manufacturing sector in our economy was not given the importance that it should have had. As I said earlier, the Government believed that the balance of payments deficit was acceptable so long as it was financed across the exchanges. There is no point in arguing about that or saying that it was wrong--it is a part of history and we cannot go back. However, the hon. Gentleman can find many statements to that effect if he reads carefully.
Mr. Soames : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is approaching the subject in a typically sensible and pragmatic way. Does he agree that it is not the service industry or the manufacturing industry that is important, but industry itself? Industry, enterprise and commerce of all sorts are the heart and lifeblood of this country, and no Government, of whatever colour, can afford to neglect any part of industry.
Mr. Bell : I entirely agree with the Parliamentary Secretary, as did the negotiators at the general agreement on tariffs and trade who, for the first time, linked industry and services as well as agriculture. However, I was speaking in a more legalistic sense when I said that the service sector and the manufacturing sector were not mutually exclusive but could and should be advanced together. I shall return to the issue of overseas trade provision and the ubiquitous Alan Clark, who pops up all over the place. He had the audacity to say to the then Prime Minister that the Overseas Development Administration should be given to the Department of Trade and Industry as part of an overhaul of the machinery of government. The then Prime Minister, Lady Thatcher, did not take up his suggestion. I invite the Department of Trade and Industry to reconsider that aspect of its commerce. I think that a review of the possibility of transferring the Overseas Development Administration to the Department of Trade and Industry would be beneficial. We know that overseas trade is not particularly popular with the Treasury, which wants to see it eliminated, but the programme for industrial projects--about £100 million a year--was saved in the latest spending round review before the Budget.
The budget of the ODA is part of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and is administered by the Minister for Overseas Development, who sits in the House of Lords. The Treasury seems to link export credit guarantees with aid and trade provision, so, rather than negotiating with the
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Foreign and Commonwealth Office--with the Department of Trade and Industry sticking its oar in here and there--the Government should consider whether it might be more appropriate for the Department of Trade and Industry to handle the subject.The President of the Board of Trade rightly says that the amount available for export credit guarantees should be balanced with the needs of the taxpayer, who has to foot the bill. The hon. Member for Newark said that the taxpayers' money should be used as prudently as possible. However, that is not necessarily the only source of money for the Treasury or the Department of Trade and Industry to use in its export credit guarantees programme. There are ways in which-- [Interruption.] That is the first time in the House that we have been interrupted by an intervention of that sort. A young member of the community obviously does not like what I am saying about exports, and must have more perspicacity than the rest of us put together. I invite the Department of Trade and Industry to investigate other ways of raising finance for export credit guarantees and overseas trade provision. I should like the Department of Trade and Industry to see whether it can raise its own long-term bonds in the City of London and so raise more money than the taxpayer is willing or able to pay. It can increase export credit guarantees and the woefully inadequate £100 million provision for assisted aid. It could be said that if it is a technique worthy of the City, it is worthy of the Government, as off- balance sheet investment.
We live in the global market place. The Uruguay round has been endorsed, the Americans are entering their new free trade area with Canada and Mexico, and the economic area of the European Union is being extended. As the hon. Member for Colchester, North said, there are openings into eastern Europe and Russia. Governments on the so-called Pacific rim are opening their frontiers to more and more trade. We need to give our exporters not just a boost but a certainty that if they can expand their trade the appropriate export credit and assisted aid will be available.
I hope that the Government and the Department of Trade and Industry, with the President of the Board of Trade, can somehow break out of the present financial orthodoxy and get out from under the dead hand of the Treasury so that the President of the Board of Trade does not have to beg, plead and wheedle for every pound and penny from the Treasury, having to persuade the Treasury about the expanding marketplace before he can persuade anyone else. Conservative Members wish the President of the Board of Trade to be, in the words of the apparition of a bloody child in "Macbeth", "bloody, bold, and resolute". We wish him to be bold in relation to exporters and exports and resolute in relation to the Treasury in obtaining more money for the exporters.
The President of the Board of Trade has said that he genuinely believes that his Department is doing a good job and that if it is not doing a good job he wants to know about it. He has had some advice today from the hon. Member for Newark and I shall be glad to give him other advice which I have received from people in the export business. People in the capital goods industry, the trading houses, the banks and the export credit insurance world want to keep under constant review the Export Credits Guarantee Department medium-term finance and cover, and especially premium rates to ensure their competitiveness with other Organisation for Economic Co- operation and Development export credit agencies.
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