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Mr. Richard Shepherd : The two Acts to which my right hon. and learned Friend referred are linked and I

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accept what he said about accountability and various checks and balances, but the point is to assist Ministers' accountability and to identify responsibility--I believe that that must be at the heart of the Bill. Mr. Cash, or my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford, was in Paris on Friday launching a new programme. In this small world, it is easy for British citizens to gather together quite ordinarily in, for example, Paris. I wanted to ensure that the Bill was not drafted in such a way that it could apply in that case, which is why I was querying its limitations.

Mr. Hogg : Looking at the smiling face of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Kilfoyle) and the rather less smiling face of my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Mr. Wood), I am conscious of the fact that the House wishes to get on with its business. I can tell my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills that, although there may be arguments against the Bill, his is not one of them. The suggestion that he and our hon. Friends will be chased by the intelligence service is not credible.

Mr. Rogers : I am afraid that the Minister has not dealt with the arguments in favour of the amendments. I reiterate the fact that we agree that the security and intelligence services must continue to be effective, but, as I said at the outset, that has to be set against the background of the application of the rule of law. The amendments are intended to focus the functions and capabilities of the intelligence services.

The Minister has refuted our arguments primarily by saying that the Bill contains a series of checks and balances. He said that there was a complaints procedure, a tribunal, a commission and an oversight committee so we need not worry about the functions that we give to the intelligent services. He said that it did not matter how broadly they were based because there were checks and balances. However, as we said in Committee ad nauseam, and as we shall continue to say, it is a completely closed circle.

Through the Joint Intelligence Committee, the Secretary of State tasks the secret services. If necessary, he issues the warrant for them to operate outside the law. They report to him, and he reports to the oversight committee and launders any information before doing so. The Prime Minister also has the function of filtering material and even the heads of the secret services have the right to scrutinise material before it goes to the oversight committee. If the Minister thinks that that is an effective check and balance against the functions set out in clause 1, I am afraid that he is living in cloud cuckoo land.

It is no good the Minister saying, as he did whenever he was challenged on specific examples--by, for example, my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin)--that history begins tomorrow and never mind what happened in the past. We have seen how the services operated in the past and we now have the opportunity to make the necessary changes in the Bill. Why not make those changes now so that there would be no need for orders ? The Bill could have been drafted more sensibly.

We have always said that clause 1 was ambiguous, which is why we tabled reasonable amendments. The Minister cannot get away with saying that we do not need to accept the word "substantially" because the secret

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intelligence services would not be interested in trivia. Why not ? Because they do not have the money. Presumably, if they did have the money, they would be interested in trivia. However, they should not have the right to interfere except where it is "substantially" in the interests of Great Britain's economy or general well -being. The Minister said that drug smuggling and child pornography, among other things, do not have a

"serious effect on law and order",

to cite amendment No. 6. I am afraid that the Minister is wrong because organised crime is funded largely from drug smuggling and drug peddling. There are many ancillaries to organised crime which fund these activities and which have a serious effect on law and order in the United Kingdom.

These are appropriate amendments and they properly introduce the concept of natural justice into the Bill. For that reason, we shall press them to a vote.

Question put , That the amendment be made :

The House divided : Ayes 123, Noes 272.

Division No. 222] [8.08 pm


Adams, Mrs Irene

Ainger, Nick

Ashton, Joe

Austin-Walker, John

Barnes, Harry

Beith, Rt Hon A. J.

Bell, Stuart

Bennett, Andrew F.

Benton, Joe

Bermingham, Gerald

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Burden, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Canavan, Dennis

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)

Clapham, Michael

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Coffey, Ann

Cohen, Harry

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Cox, Tom

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John

Dafis, Cynog

Darling, Alistair

Davidson, Ian

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Dowd, Jim

Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

Eastham, Ken

Enright, Derek

Etherington, Bill

Flynn, Paul

Foster, Rt Hon Derek

Fraser, John

Galloway, George

Gerrard, Neil

Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Godsiff, Roger

Gordon, Mildred

Graham, Thomas

Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Gunnell, John

Hall, Mike

Hanson, David

Hinchliffe, David

Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)

Home Robertson, John

Hoon, Geoffrey

Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)

Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)

Johnston, Sir Russell

Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mo n)

Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)

Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)

Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)

Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)

Kilfoyle, Peter

Kirkwood, Archy

Lewis, Terry

Llwyd, Elfyn

Lynne, Ms Liz

Mackinlay, Andrew

McMaster, Gordon

McWilliam, John

Maddock, Mrs Diana

Mandelson, Peter

Marek, Dr John

Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Maxton, John

Michael, Alun

Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)

Morley, Elliot

Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)

Mudie, George

Mullin, Chris

O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)

O'Brien, William (Normanton)

Parry, Robert

Patchett, Terry

Pickthall, Colin

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)

Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)

Raynsford, Nick

Redmond, Martin

Reid, Dr John

Robertson, George (Hamilton)

Rogers, Allan

Rowlands, Ted

Sedgemore, Brian

Sheerman, Barry

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