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Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I must ask the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) to contain himself. If he wants to make a contribution or to refute something that the Minister has said, he can stand up and say so, but he should not do so from a sedentary position.
Mr. Dicks : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Minister, perhaps inadvertently--and I say that reservedly--is misleading the House. There is no speed and no timetable. Why does he not tell the real truth for a change ?
Mr. Scott : If I may say so, I am seeking to outline to the House the real concerns of business and other providers of the costs that could be imposed upon them. There is an overwhelming concern about the new rights conferred by the Bill and how businesses can comply with it.
Mr. Fabricant : My right hon. Friend has said that the Government would wish to seek advice from industry. We have already received a huge weight of evidence from its representatives about what they like and do not like about the Bill, albeit that much of that evidence was based on the Bill before it reached Committee. Yesterday, the Prime Minister said that he wished to press ahead with legislation for the disabled. My right hon. Friend the Minister has told the House today that he wants to go ahead speedily with such legislation. Surely it would make sense for the legislation that the Prime Minister has in mind to be used to amend the Bill still further, but in another place, so that it could be completed speedily.
Mr. Scott : The danger of my hon. Friend's approach is that it would arouse expectations about the future of the Bill that might not be fulfilled. As I have made clear, the Government and I do not feel that the Bill is the appropriate means of tackling the matter. I have spoken at length to stress the importance of consultation with all the parties concerned. When the Government consult on their own proposals, our actions will suit these words. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made clear his views, and we are determined to tackle discrimination in employment, access to goods and the availability of financial services. We will look at the prospects for extending the big building regulations to meet better the needs of disabled people in buildings of a variety of types, and the creation of an independent
Dr. Liam Fox rose in his place and claimed to move , That the Question be now put.
Question put , That the Question be now put :
The House divided : Ayes 28, Noes 1.
Division No. 249] [2.00 pm
AYES
Austin-Walker, John
Barnes, Harry
Berry, Roger
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Patrick
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Dicks, Terry
Dixon, Don
Fraser, John
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoey, Kate
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Livingstone, Ken
Lynne, Ms Liz
Madden, Max
Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Pope, Greg
Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Rooker, Jeff
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Column 1099
Skinner, DennisSoley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Tellers for the Ayes :
Dr. Liam Fox and
Mr. Michael Fabricant.
NOES
Stern, Michael
Tellers for the Noes :
Mr. Peter Atkinson and
Mr. Edward Leigh.
It appearing on the report of the Division that 40 Members were not present, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER declared that the Question was not decided, and the business under consideration stood over until the next Sitting of the House.
Mr. Sheerman : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We have just seen a Bill killed by a cynical manipulation by the Government and the Whips, with the Minister talking it out. The Government used the strategy of having a vote knowing that the bulk of the Bill's supporters are in another place attending the funeral of the former Leader of the Opposition. It is a disgrace for which the people of this country will never forgive the Government.
Mr. Peter Atkinson : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Earlier this morning a Bill was lost--the Inshore Fishing (Scotland) Bill-- that was of enormous importance to nature conservation in the north-west and Scotland. It was killed because Opposition Members called a vote knowing that the Bill would not be passed, and the business was lost.
Ms Lynne : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Government to talk out such a Bill ? Can you do anything to ensure that private Members' Bills are protected ?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : The Bill has not been talked out. It has been lost at this stage of its proceedings.
Mr. Skinner : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Division took place on behalf of 6.5 million people who are disabled. Today the Government--particularly the Minister for Social Security and Disabled People, who has not earned that title--have kicked the crutches away from those disabled people. To make it worse, in that Division, although 28 people went through the Lobby, and large numbers of the parliamentary Labour party are up at John Smith's funeral, more than 12 Tories in the House refused to go through the Lobbies to provide the necessary 40 Members, including yourself, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so that the debate could continue. What the Government have done is beneath contempt. A Back-Bench measure has been killed by the Minister and the Government Whips. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. What procedure would enable the House to censure the Minister, the conduct of his office and his appalling behaviour in destroying a private Member's Bill ?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : That is a not a matter on which the Chair can give guidance.
Mr. Alan Howarth : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Have you received any notification from the Leader of the House that he intends to make a statement at
Column 1100
2.30 pm to tell the House about the Government's plans to provide further time for consideration of this measure, in accordance with the resolution passed on 29 April ?Mr. Deputy Speaker : I have received no such representation.
Mr. Alfred Morris : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can I use this one remaining opportunity of a point of order to make it clear through you to all disabled people and everyone else that this campaign for a Bill which has been with Parliament for two and a half years will go on for as long as it takes to win full citizenship for Britain's disabled people ?
Mr. Leigh : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) said, we earlier debated two very important Bills--the Inshore Fishing (Scotland) Bill and the Sale and Supply of Goods Bill. Knowing that there were fewer than 40 hon. Members present, the Opposition deliberately employed tactics to kill those two worthy Bills, one of which was presented by a Labour Member. The Opposition are furious that they have now been caught out by the same tactics. If any hon. Members have behaved disreputably today, it is the Opposition who, by underhand methods, deliberately killed two Bills but have now been caught out on their Bill.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : None of that has anything to do with the Chair.
Several hon. Members rose
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I am not taking new points of order other than from hon. Members who have previously risen to their feet.
Mr. Sheerman : My point of order is further to that of the hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) who impugned the actions of the Opposition
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. That is nothing to do with the Chair, one way or the other.
Mr. Dicks : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have to say that my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) told a pack of lies. The other Bills
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman rephrased that.
Mr. Dicks : My hon. Friend was economical with the truth. The two Bills to which he referred would not have been lost had the Government and the Whips played the game by the rules. If they keep moving the goalposts, they should not be surprised when others try to do the same.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Again, that is nothing to do with the Chair.
Mr. Berry : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Members of all parties and millions of people outside will be disgusted by what they have seen here today. The amendments that we were debating were accepted by the Bill's sponsors one hour and 15 minutes ago. The Minister has cynically talked out the Bill. It is an insult to disabled people, and the Minister should reconsider his position.
Column 1101
NORTHERN IRELAND TERMINATION OF JURISDICTION BILL -- Order for Second Reading read .
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Not moved.
EMPLOYMENT PROTECTION (GOVERNMENT COMMUNICATIONS HEADQUARTERS) BILL --
Order for Second Reading read .
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) : With the greatest pleasure and on behalf of the trade unionists at GCHQ, I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time : The House divided : Ayes 17, Noes 17.
AYES
Division No. 250] [2.17 pm Berry, Roger
Corbyn, Jeremy
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Dixon, Don
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoey, Kate
Livingstone, Ken
Lynne, Ms Liz
Madden, Max
Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe)
Pope, Greg
Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Rooker, Jeff
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Skinner, Dennis
Spearing, Nigel
Tellers for the Ayes :
Mr. Harry Barnes, and
Mr. John Austin-Walker
NOES
Arbuthnot, James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowis, John
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Patrick
Dicks, Terry
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Paice, James
Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Sproat, Iain
Thurnham, Peter
Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John
Tellers for the Noes :
Mr. Edward Leigh, and
Mr. Michael Fabricant.
It appearing on the report of the Division that 40 Members were not present, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER declared that the Question was not decided, and the business under consideration stood over until the next Sitting of the House.
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