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Dame Angela Rumbold : I am not entirely sure whether I agree with my hon. Friend, but hon. Members can make up their own minds. I sincerely believe that we should not attempt to make the Bill more restrictive than necessary. I have no problems with my position ; I have never been anything other than a total deregulator on the issue. I am sad that we have had to impose restrictions, but I am glad that we have at least some agreement in the House on the sort of restrictions that we have agreed to accept. I am concerned that we should not now renege on those agreements by saying that we want to impose a greater restriction on the sale of motor spares than existed in the 1950 Act. I ask my colleagues to consider the subject carefully and to support the Lords amendment No. 8.
Dr. Robert Spink (Castle Point) : I shall not delay the House long. I shall not reiterate the detailed points made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton), as he made them extremely well.
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I shall deal with the principle of whether or not the regulations are tightly in place. I see that the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) has just entered the Chamber, so I shall use the words of his national poet, Dylan Thomas :"Time let me play and be Golden in the mercy of his means . . . and the sabbath rang slowly In the pebbles of the holy streams." The sabbath rang slowly, but the sabbath will never ring slowly again as a result of the decision that we have made. I believe that we shall come to rue the day that we passed the Sunday Trading Bill. In principle, we should seek to keep Sunday as a special day, and resist the amendments before us.
Mr. Luff : I had not intended to intervene in the debate on this group of amendments, but in view of the confusion over amendment numbers in the speech of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton), I think that it is important to clarify the issue. The hon. Gentleman repeatedly referred to amendment No. 6 in relation to motor supplies and cycle supplies, but amendment No. 6 relates to exemptions for stands at exhibitions, as does amendment No. 11. I hope that amendments Nos. 6 and 11 will not attract any controversy in the House. The amendments to exempt exhibition stands from the provisions of the Sunday Trading Bill are genuinely technical. Exhibitions are not generally affected by the Bill, and the amendments are simply to ensure that individual stands in exhibitions, which might otherwise fall within the definition of a shop, are not affected either.
The amendments are minor, but they are important to the exhibition industry of the United Kingdom if our venues are to be able to compete on an equal basis with exhibition venues overseas, particularly in the European single market. The amendments do not undermine the Bill's principle or provide a loophole in the law. The term "exhibition" has already been defined, so it remains a question of fact. For this purpose, in any dispute about whether something constitutes an exhibition, the courts can decide on the facts on the basis "you know an exhibition when you see one".
The Sunday Trading Bill provides the Secretary of State with the power simply to continue with existing exemptions in local legislation for some venues such as Earls Court, Olympia and the National Exhibition Centre outside Birmingham. Amendments Nos. 6 and 11 ensure that exhibition venues throughout the countries of England and Wales are treated on an equal footing with other venues, with one rule being applied to all. I hope that they will command universal support in the House.
Mrs. Peacock : I should like to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Luff) with a word on amendments Nos. 6 and 11, which are important, not only to the exhibition industry, but to manufacturing industry, many of whose members exhibit at exhibitions that commence on Sundays. Sunday is the very day that retailers are able to visit exhibitions to order and buy goods for sale in their shops. It is most important that we do not impose any restrictions that could affect our manufacturing industry.
As chairman of the House of Commons motor club, I wrote to my hon. Friend the Minister about amendment No. 8, which has been sensibly placed in the Bill by their
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Lordships. Perhaps the original legislation should have contained the provision--I certainly want to see it continued.As my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Dame A. Rumbold) said, more than 10 million car owners in this country do not belong to the AA or the RAC. None of us wants to see young families or anyone else stranded and having to wait until the shops open the next morning to buy the necessary parts to repair their car if it breaks down after hours. I hope that the House will recognise that.
Mr. Fabricant : Will the hon. Lady give way ?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes) : Order. I think that the hon. Member for Batley and Spen (Mrs. Peacock) has completed her speech.
6 pm
Mr. Jim Lester (Broxtowe) : I have circulated amendment No. 10 to most hon. Members, as it principally affects a constituency company, Boots. It reinstates in the Bill provisions that originally existed in relation to pharmacists. The pharmacists do not seek additional hours or changes in the hours, but want to be allowed to sell products that are essential for people's health. Pharmacists have been able to sell those products until now, and the amendment restores the original position without affecting the opening hours. Question put and agreed to.
Lords amendment No 6 agreed to.
Lords amendment : No. 7, in page 4, line 44, at end insert ("(za) any shop which is at a farm and where the trade or business carried on consists wholly or mainly of the sale of produce from that farm,")
Motion made, and Question put, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.-- [Mr. Peter Lloyd.]
The House divided : Ayes 246, Noes 191.
Division No. 269] [6.00 pm
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Aspinwall, Jack
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Austin-Walker, John
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Barron, Kevin
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Betts, Clive
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Boyes, Roland
Brandreth, Gyles
Bright, Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs. Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Cann, Jamie
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Chapman, Sydney
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Couchman, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Darling, Alistair
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Column 164
Dorrell, StephenDouglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Dowd, Jim
Duncan, Alan
Duncan-Smith, Iain
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Tim
Elletson, Harold
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Flynn, Paul
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Garnier, Edward
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorst, Sir John
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Gunnell, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hicks, Robert
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoon, Geoffrey
Horam, John
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Kirkwood, Archy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Mark
Lidington, David
Lightbown, David
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham)
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mandelson, Peter
Marland, Paul
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mates, Michael
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Moate, Sir Roger
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Moss, Malcolm
Mowlam, Marjorie
Mullin, Chris
Nelson, Anthony
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Norris, Steve
O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
O'Neill, Martin
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Irvine
Patten, Rt Hon John
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Pope, Greg
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Rendel, David
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Rooker, Jeff
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Sackville, Tom
Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Sims, Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Soames, Nicholas
Speed, Sir Keith
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Steen, Anthony
Stern, Michael
Strang, Dr. Gavin
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M. (Solihull)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Thurnham, Peter
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