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Sir Ivan Lawrence: That raises other problems and the right hon. Gentleman's comments do not meet the point that I am making. I am making a much simpler point and I need not repeat what I have just said. I am unhappy
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about this, but I understand that it is inevitable. Therefore, I reluctantly go along with the Government's response to the Opposition's suggestion.I should like clarification on two points. First, speaking frankly and openly, we have been worried by the fact that too often solicitors may have told accused people to say nothing when, on many occasions, what they may have said could have been helpful to the defence. I wonder whether the problem of what solicitors shall say, bearing in mind the new caution, has been sorted out by the Law Society and its ethical committee. How far have those considerations progressed with the Law Society? Is it changing its rules and ethical obligations to conform with the changes proposed in the Bill? Secondly, regardless of how the caution works in Northern Ireland, no one can deny that it is quite convoluted. It can be simplified. I wonder whether the proposed caution is set in stone or whether it is open to wider consideration which might produce a shorter and simpler version. Modesty forbids me from suggesting one now, but I will quietly, perhaps in a letter, propose alternatives to my hon. Friend the Minister, and I hope that others will do likewise. It is obviously sensible that we should have as simple and as straightforward a caution as possible, particularly if we are not going to allow legal representation in certain circumstances.
Mr. Peter Hardy (Wentworth): In this brief intervention I want to refer to a constituency case which may be interpreted as suggesting that the right of silence should be expunged, but which I hope will convince the House that it is not that which should attract attention, but the need for common sense in the legal process.
Not very long ago, a man was caught breaking into the house of a constituent of mine. The police responded to a call with enormous speed and the man was caught red-handed burgling my constituent's home. When the police accosted him, he said "I am exercising my right of silence." When the papers went to the public prosecution office, it decided that it could not prosecute because that man was exercising the right of silence. The Minister may recall that I had correspondence with the Home Office on the matter which led, I believe, to its being reviewed.
It is not the existence of the right of silence that was wrong. What was wrong was that the court was denied the opportunity to hear that charge and perhaps ensure that the criminal who was sheltering behind the right of silence secured a rather tougher sentence for wasting public time and causing mayhem than was the case. I suggest that the Minister should advise the Crown Prosecution Service to allow the court to have the opportunity to exercise its judgment rather than remove a freedom which may be of considerable historic importance.
Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 264, Noes 286.
Division No. 307] [7.00 pm
AYES
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Abbott, Ms DianeAdams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
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Allen, GrahamAlton, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
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Armstrong, HilaryAshdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Ashton, Joe
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret
Beith, Rt Hon A. J.
Bell, Stuart
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F.
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blair, Tony
Blunkett, David
Boateng, Paul
Boyes, Roland
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D. N.
Canavan, Dennis
Cann, Jamie
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Church, Judith
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Dunnachie, Jimmy
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eastham, Ken
Enright, Derek
Etherington, Bill
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Fatchett, Derek
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
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Foulkes, GeorgeFyfe, Maria
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Godman, Dr Norman A.
Godsiff, Roger
Golding, Mrs Llin
Graham, Thomas
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hardy, Peter
Harman, Ms Harriet
Harvey, Nick
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Henderson, Doug
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Janner, Greville
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, Tessa
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Litherland, Robert
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
Macdonald, Calum
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclennan, Robert
MacShane, Denis
Madden, Max
Maddock, Diana
Mahon, Alice
Mandelson, Peter
Marek, Dr John
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