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Mr. Hughes: I was not a member of the Standing Committee.

Mr. Malone: As the hon. Gentleman points out, he did not participate in the Committee stage, either.

Mr. Hughes: Why?

Mr. Malone: I shall not go into that, but we missed the presence of the hon. Gentleman's party. I understand that its members were not very excited about making an appearance.

Mr. Hughes: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.] It is a genuine point of order for the Chair. Is it correct for the Minister to assert that members of my party were not represented in the Standing Committee, given that we were not nominated?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris): That is nothing to do with the Chair.

Mr. Malone: I am obliged to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My understanding is that, if members of the hon. Gentleman's party had wished to secure a place on the Committee, they would have been entitled to do so; but they did not take advantage of that entitlement. No doubt the hon. Gentleman can complain to those who manage his party's business affairs, but it is a bit late for him to raise the matter on Report.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have already made it clear that this has nothing to do with either the Chair or the debate.

Mr. Malone: You are quite right, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall speak to the hon. Gentleman privately after the debate, so that he is certain about the position.

I think that we have made it clear that there will be sufficient means of examining the savings generated by the reforms. The information will be available in the normal departmental report, which will be discussed in Parliament. Both new clauses are unnecessary, and if the Opposition choose to press them to a vote, I shall ask the House to reject them.

6.15 pm

Ms Coffey: With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that the Minister has already sat down. Unless the hon. Lady wishes to make a speech--

Ms Coffey: I simply wish to ask, with the House's permission--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady must resume her seat. She may make another speech if she

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wishes to do so, but the Minister has finished his speech, and she therefore cannot intervene. Perhaps she will wait until a bit later. Ms Coffey rose --

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. If the hon. Lady is to speak, she will need the leave of the House.

Hon. Members: No.

Ms Coffey: I rise to speak because--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Did I hear a no? Has the hon. Lady the leave of the House? [Hon. Members:-- "Yes."] I think she has.

Ms Coffey: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairman.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I must be addressed as "Mr. Deputy Speaker", or referred to as the Chair.

Ms Coffey: My apologies, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

In my earlier speech, I asked some specific questions. I asked, for instance, who would inspect and monitor the community programme for the mentally handicapped. That is a serious issue, and I am deeply disappointed that the Minister did not refer to it: given that the RHAs are to be abolished, it is very pertinent.

Question put , That the clause be read a Second time:--

The House divided : Ayes 242, Noes 283.

Division No. 80] [6.17 pm


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Abbott, Ms Diane

Adams, Mrs Irene

Ainger, Nick

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Armstrong, Hilary

Ashton, Joe

Austin-Walker, John

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry

Barron, Kevin

Battle, John

Bayley, Hugh

Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret

Beith, Rt Hon A J

Bell, Stuart

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, Andrew F

Bermingham, Gerald

Berry, Roger

Betts, Clive

Blair, Rt Hon Tony

Blunkett, David

Boateng, Paul

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)

Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Burden, Richard

Byers, Stephen

Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)

Campbell-Savours, D N

Canavan, Dennis

Column 197

Cann, Jamie

Chidgey, David

Chisholm, Malcolm

Church, Judith

Clapham, Michael

Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clelland, David

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Coffey, Ann

Connarty, Michael

Corbett, Robin

Cousins, Jim

Cox, Tom

Cummings, John

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)

Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John

Dalyell, Tam

Darling, Alistair

Davidson, Ian

Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)

Denham, John

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Donohoe, Brian H

Dowd, Jim

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Eagle, Ms Angela

Eastham, Ken

Enright, Derek

Etherington, Bill

Evans, John (St Helens N)

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