House of Commons Hansard Debates for 18 Apr 1995

Mr. Taylor: The great majority of those who represent the people of Scotland in the House do not agree with the Minister about the views of the people of Scotland. If the Minister's commitment to environmental issues is so strong, why does the Scottish agency lack the principal aim to protect and enhance the environment which is given to the English agency?

It is critical that both agencies are given adequate resources to meet the tasks which are ahead of them. The pressure on the new EPA during its start -up will be huge. If the Treasury--a Department which shows less interest in the issue than the Secretary of State claimed for the whole Government-- under-resources the agency during that crucial period, the agency will find it hard to fulfil its role of protecting the environment.

There have been cuts at the National Rivers Authority, but the agency believes that it can live with them. The widespread view among all those involved--including those who support what the Government have been doing-- is that any further cuts in the resources available to the agency would make it simply impossible to see through this further major change.

The Government have much support for what they are doing, but there are real misgivings which have been echoed across the House. The Bill must and should be a success, and it can be a success provided that Ministers--as the Bill progresses through this place--give a constructive response to the real concerns that have been expressed by hon. Members on both sides.

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6.24 pm

Sir Anthony Durant (Reading, West): After listening to the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) and the intervention from my hon. Friend the Minister, I feel like telling the hon. Member for Truro to put a sock in it, as, frankly, he does not know what he is talking about.

I wish to talk about inland waterways. I am the chairman of the all-party group on inland waterways, and I am president and vice-president of a number of waterway organisations. There is widespread concern about the Bill on the subject of navigation. I was delighted that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State mentioned the word "navigation" in his opening speech. That shows that there is at least some recognition of the subject, and that is important. The feeling in the boating and inland waterways industry--including those who use and hire boats and the chandleries--is that, because the National Rivers Authority is being abolished, the concentration on navigation will diminish. There is great anxiety about that. My hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside has issued a paper whose purpose is to review navigation functions. It is an interesting document, which the all-party group is studying, and it gives options about what should be done about navigation. One of the difficulties for inland waterways is that, after years of being in the doldrums, the industry is now going forward. There has been an enormous expansion in the use of the waterways. British Waterways now has 2,000 miles of navigable water, and a large amount of water is available through the Thames and other waterways. All concerned with waterways want some navigation co-ordination. Those involved in waterways all over the country have asked for greater recognition to be given to navigation in clause 6, because nowhere in the Bill does the word "navigation" appear. Now that the Secretary of State has mentioned it, however, perhaps it will appear later in the Bill. I hope that members of the Standing Committee will discuss that subject. It was debated in the other place at some length, where it was said that the subject should be included in the Bill. I wish to press the point that those who use inland waterways want recognition of the subject of navigation in the Bill. 6.27 pm

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Denton and Reddish): I welcome the Bill as far as it goes, but the jury must be out as to whether its epitaph will be "Better late than never" or "Too little, too late". In his opening speech, the Secretary of State said that he had been a late convert to the idea of a protection agency. It is sad that the Government did not listen to the Environment Select Committee in 1986 when it recommended the setting up of one agency. When the Government reorganised the National Rivers Authority in 1989, they insisted on not carrying out the recommendations of the Select Committee, in spite of the fact that the Opposition had, pressed them to set up a single agency.

Having said that, I welcome the fact that the Government presented the Bill originally in consultation form, which allowed the Select Committee to have a series of hearings on the Bill. I also welcome the fact that the Government made concessions in the other place. The

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Government listened, and I hope that they will go on listening. I also hope that, by the time we come back for Third Reading, the Bill will be further improved.

I will particularly press the Government on clause 7 and the question of the extension of the conservation duty of the National Rivers Authority. I received a letter from English Nature--I am sure many other hon. Members received such a letter--which set out the way in which 17 areas of water have benefited from that power. The areas include Bassenthwaite in Cumbria, Malham Tarn, the Wye river, Slapton Ley and the Mere in Cheshire. The letter went on to list a further 50 sites where English Nature believes that a failure to extend the duty of further conservation may hinder and damage conservation. I see no reason why the Government cannot concede the point and put back into clause 7 the duty of further conservation.

The Government were challenged in the other place to provide examples of where they believed there could be a conflict if those words were included. As I understand it, the Government have not been able to come up with any examples, so I hope that they can make that concession in clause 7.

It is important that the Government include in the Bill environmental quality standards, particularly for air. I welcome the proposals on hedgerows, although I believe that the Government are taking very wide powers in statutory instruments. I particularly press the Government to consider the problem that is being created with set-aside land. Clearly, if a farmer sets aside land, he has no reason to maintain the hedgerows between the fields, or the walls for that matter. I hope that the Minister can give us assurances that he will carefully consider introducing some mechanism that will encourage the farmer to continue maintaining the hedgerows and walls between set-aside land.

The hedgerow is important for conservation so long as it is a well- maintained hedge. It ceases to be of much conservation value if the hedge grows out and becomes a clump of trees along the edge of a field. There is a problem here. I hope that, in Committee, we shall be able to pursue with the Government how to prevent stock hedgerows being removed and ensure that they are maintained and laid back every 10 or 15 years, so that they continue to be not only stock-proof boundaries but good habitats for wildlife in general.

I press the Government to consider how they can introduce protection for walls. It worries me that on many occasions I see farmers allow someone to come along with a bulldozer, scoop up a wall and stick it in the back of a lorry. Sooner or later, it ends up being sold off in a garden centre at an exorbitant price as a rock garden wall. That is a deplorable practice. We ought to find some ways in the legislation to stop that happening.

I give a general welcome to the proposals in the Bill on the national parks, but I wish to place a question mark on the proposals that they should take over responsibility for footpaths. The boundaries of the national parks were drawn up carefully to exclude an awful lot of towns and their immediate environment. In Glossop, Buxton and one or two other areas, the footpaths leading out of town suddenly cross a national park boundary. It is important that there should be proper agency arrangements between local authorities, so that we do not have anomalies around some of the towns.

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Although some national parks have a dynamic record, others do not. I should be worried if we handed over footpath powers to them and found that one or two of the newly constituted national parks did not pursue footpaths with vigour. The Countryside Commission has proposed that, by the year 2000, all footpaths should be free from obstructions and signposted where they leave the highway. I wonder whether the Government could insert a clause in the Bill saying that footpath powers will be transferred to the national park provided the national park gets on with the job. They could say that if, by the year 2000, the national park has not carried out its footpaths function with vigour, those powers will revert to the councils. I accept the argument that national park boards ought to include elected representatives, but it is important that most of the Secretary of State's appointments should be consumers, so to speak, from outside the area. There has been a tendency recently to appoint people to national park boards from within the board area. That seems to be a disadvantage. They are not elected, but their neighbours tend to think that they should represent their views. I stress that people who come from within the board area should, wherever possible, be elected but that the Secretary of State should balance that by appointing people who represent the national interest of people in the country at large who come in to use the park.

The Environment Select Committee will publish a report tomorrow on air pollution and volatile organic compounds. I obviously cannot anticipate what will be in the report. The Secretary of State said at the beginning of his speech that he would consider the whole question of air pollution. I hope that that undertaking will be fulfilled as we go through the Committee proceedings, and that we can build some air quality standards into the legislation.

Increasingly, people in Britain think environmentally. The trouble is that they do not act environmentally. It is still important that we turn the rhetoric into practical proposals. I hope that, during the passage of the Bill, we can ensure that it is a practical contribution to fulfilling that vague commitment to sustainable development.

6.35 pm

Mr. Henry Bellingham (Norfolk, North-West): I should start by declaring my interests. I am a parliamentary adviser to the National Association of Waste Disposal Contractors. I am also on the board of two companies that run recycling operations and a member of the National Farmers Union and of Lloyd's. Those organisations may well want to raise points with my hon. Friend the Minister, and I shall not make any detailed comments during the next 10 minutes or so on their behalf.

I welcome the Bill. I particularly welcome the decision to set up an environment protection agency. I was a member of the Environment Select Committee that produced the report under Sir Hugh Rossi in 1989, which recommended that the best way to pursue integrated pollution control was to create a one-stop shop based on an environment protection agency. It is not necessarily a matter of regret that the Government have taken so long to introduce the Bill. They have listened, consulted and taken their time and, as a result, we have an excellent Bill. I only wish that the Government had adopted the same approach when setting up other agencies. They have taken a great deal of time. I believe that they have got it right

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on this occasion. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Minister on the effort that they have put into the Bill.

Concern has been expressed--I know that my hon. Friend the Minister has voiced it himself--that, when a new agency based on a number of existing organisations is set up, there can be a tendency to empire-build, set up new bureaucracies and to build something that is greater than the sum of the different elements. That is one reason why it is welcome that the Government have taken their time. The formula which they have introduced as a result of a great deal of consultation will obviate the need to build something bigger. I welcome the Secretary of State's commitment to create a streamlined organisation which will lead to a considerable element of saving when taken together with the different organisations. He must be held to his word. The danger is that, if we do not follow the agency closely, we shall have a body that wants to expand rather than become a thoroughly streamlined set-up that is readily identifiable to industry, business and the public as a whole.

I want to say a quick word about the existing organisations. Not enough tribute has been paid today to the National Rivers Authority for the excellent work that it has done or to Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution and the various local authorities involved in the waste regulation function.

The NRA has a first-class reputation in East Anglia, especially for the control of watercourses. I very much welcome the fact that the Minister in the other place said in Committee that he would "consider, during the passage of the Bill through Parliament, whether it should be amended to introduce now a duty on water undertakers to promote water conservation."-- [ Official Report, House of Lords , 19 January 1995; Vol. 560, c. 823.]

In Norfolk, we have had a great deal of rain recently, but during the great drought that lasted until about nine months ago, some rivers in my constituency either were reduced to a pathetic trickle or ran dry. At the time, I welcomed the NRA's work and research and its proactive stance. I hope that, under clause 6, the new environment protection agency will have similar powers and influence and a proactive approach and I hope that the Minister will comment briefly on that when he replies.

I also hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will comment on the NRA's recent work on integrated catchment management. I am sure that he read Lady David's speech in another place on Second Reading, when she mentioned the work that has been done in East Anglia on river catchment areas such as those of the Black Bourn, the Thet and the Little Ouse. Much research and a great deal of time has been put into setting up an integrated catchment management policy for that part of Norfolk and Suffolk, and I hope that that excellent work will continue apace.

On contaminated land, one aspect causes me a degree of concern. As I understand it, we are creating a new liability for some landowners, which is a departure from existing liability in common law because, if the person who has caused the problems, the pollution or the contamination cannot be found, the liability will be placed on the landowner, who might not be a farmer or someone who owns an estate but could be a small smallholder, a

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householder, or a person who owns a bit of rough ground outside a village. It is probably a mistake for the press to portray the measure as affecting only the large landowners.

My hon. Friend the Minister and I have corresponded on the matter, and he made it clear that he did not feel that the Government were creating any new liability or laying down a tighter law. I am concerned that some categories of landowner could be faced with an immense liability and with on-going costs. I must declare an interest as a member of Lloyd's the insurers, although I am not affected by any measures in the Bill. Lloyd's has expressed grave concern that the insurance market could well be faced with considerable claims. It has flagged up what has happened in America, where civil fund legislation has led to expensive cases going backwards and forwards across the Atlantic, leading to nothing more than a good day out for the lawyers. Will my hon. Friend the Minister consider that matter carefully?

In the few remaining minutes, I must say something about hedgerows. My neighbour the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Sir R. Howell) and I have had a lot of correspondence with farmers in our constituencies who were obviously concerned that, as the Bill was originally drafted, an unfair onus would be placed on them and too much power would be given to local authorities. They are also concerned that it would provide an opportunity for much meddling and scope for some organisations that might not have the best motives to take an intrusive look at everything going on on people's farms. We must bear in mind the fact that the vast majority of farmers are completely responsible. In Norfolk, more hedgerows have been planted in the past few years than destroyed.

I agree with the hon. Member for Denton and Redditch (Mr. Bennett), that more effort and time need to be put into encouraging farmers to manage hedgerows. He rightly pointed out that as many hedgerows have been lost by lack of management as by removal by a bulldozer. I want the scheme to help farmers to improve hedgerows to be beefed up and made much more effective.

The Bill underpins and underlines the Government's commitment to the environment. It is the fifth in a succession of Bills. The previous four have been enacted since I have been in Parliament, but this is the biggest so far. It is extremely ambitious and is really five Bills rolled into one. It shows the Government's total commitment to improving the environment into the next century. Above all else, it proves that the Government represent the party that believes in the environment. The 1992 election was not about the environment and green issues, because the economy was in recession, but the 1987 election was and the next election will focus on such issues. The Bill will put the Government and the party in a very strong position, which is why I welcome it.

6.44 pm

Mr. Sam Galbraith (Strathkelvin and Bearsden): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Bellingham). The last time we met was during a debate in the Standing Committee on the Natural Heritage (Scotland) Bill, when his main contribution was a suggestion that we reintroduce wild boar and wolves into Scotland. He was not taken too seriously, but it is an idea whose time might come, as it is gaining more popularity as time goes by.

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I shall deal with the Bill only as it affects Scotland, but I do not want people to think that I am dealing with it parochially. I am doing so because of the time limit. I realise that the principles behind these environmental issues do not stop at national borders. The practicalities might alter in different countries, but the principles are inherently the same, so please will hon. Members forgive me for limiting myself to the effects on Scotland? One of the Bill's functions is to set up the Scottish environment protection agency, which will take over the functions of the river purification boards, Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution, the hazardous waste inspectorate and the air pollution and waste management functions of local authorities. I welcome the introduction of that agency. The principle is correct, and it is important to have an over-arching body for areas of the environment and pollution that do not respect any boundary based on catchment areas. Pollution from the River Ayr may arise in one local authority, but it spreads to others, so the principle is correct.

There are some general problems, which have been mentioned, such as the cost duty benefit analysis and the fact that the Bill creates a permissive power to take the environment into account, rather than a statutory duty.

I shall deal with the problems for Scotland, because there are some differences there. First, the Scottish environment protection agency will have no control over extraction from rivers. We do not suffer the problem of rivers drying up, which affects hon. Members down here in England. I have never seen any Scottish river even come close to drying up, so we obviously do not have a similar problem, but there are principles involved- -for example, pollution and the flow rates in rivers--that we may want to consider in Committee to decide whether the Bill should be extended to cover those areas.

The Scottish environment protection agency will not have any control over river catchment areas, which is another deficiency that we might want to consider in Committee, especially as it relates to nutrition enhancement, acidification and so forth.

Flood control has become important in Scotland recently. It may come as a surprise to hon. Members who represent English constituencies that the SEPA will not have any control over flood control, as it will rest with the local authorities. In Scotland, flooding is not the problem that it is in England. Recently, however, the River Kelvin and various tributaries around the Glasgow area flooded and severely affected my constituency and Kirkintilloch. We have had previous flooding around the Inverness area, down through the Beauly firth. We have also had trouble in Tayside. We are told that such floods happen once in a hundred years, although historical records show that, in my area, they happen every 25 years. Every year without fail, the flooding of the Kelvin spreads into the gardens of a number of my constituents.

In recognition of that, the Minister introduced into the Bill some late measures giving the SEPA a statutory planning consultation role. That is important, and I welcome it. For the first time, the SEPA will have control over flood warning systems, but the problem of flood prevention is difficult, and I hope that we shall consider it in Committee.

Local authorities currently have only a permissive power; they have no statutory powers to introduce flood prevention measures. The problem with leaving flood

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prevention to local authorities is that even the River Kelvin, for example, which is just a tributary of the Clyde, runs through three local authorities. We may therefore wish to consider the matter in Committee.

Although I welcome the SEPA, I object to the fact that it is a quango. More than half the Scottish Office budget is disbursed by quangos, and that will happen yet again under the SEPA. I hope that the Minister will consider how we might change the fact that all its members will be appointed, and recognise the need for links with local authorities. Although I do not oppose quangos in principle, there are far too many, and their functions would be greatly enhanced if some of their nominated members came from local authorities by statutory right. In that way, the two areas could work in co-operation rather than in conflict, as has happened in the past. All hon. Members will have noticed that the Bill does not mention national parks in Scotland. The reason is clear: there are no national parks in Scotland, for good historical reasons. When national parks were set up in England, there was great pressure from the conurbations, with people spreading out into areas of scenic beauty, but that was never a problem in Scotland, where scenic areas were vast and often distant from conurbations.

That has now changed, and areas such as Loch Lomond are bursting at the seams, the environment is being eroded and distant wildernesses like the Cairngorms are undergoing great changes. When I was but a lad, one could climb the north face of Ben Nevis on a summer's day and meet nobody else. Now, in a white-out blizzard and avalanche conditions, one can be run over by other people coming down the hill at a great rate, which shows the significant changes that have occurred.

There has been great pressure to have national parks in Scotland. The Countryside Commission brought forward proposals for the Cairngorms, Loch Lomond, Ben Nevis, Glencoe and Wester Ross. It eliminated Knoydart, on the basis that nobody knows where it is. In keeping with that principle, I shall not say where it is, so that no one goes there. In response to that growing pressure, the Government set up their own committees. The problem is that it is a voluntary scheme, and there is a joint committee for the Cairngorms and Loch Lomond.

The importance of the Bill is that it sets a necessary and important template for Scotland, which we can use and judge when establishing our own legislation, as I am sure my party will enable us to do once we are in government, to set up national parks. I shall watch it with great interest as it develops. The Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro), was wrongly accused of not being interested in conservation. He has a long record of interest in conservation measures in Scotland and the UK, but he was wrong to condemn the English national parks for not having worked or solved all the problems.

I hope that legislation on hedgerows will apply also to Scotland and that, when we introduce an amendment to preserve dry stone walls, they will be called "dykes", as they are in Scotland, so that there can be no confusion. Dry stone dykes are important, as they last a long time and provide necessary protection for sheep, particularly during the lambing season, which has just started.

I welcome the Bill and the principles behind it. There are problems in it for Scotland; some are general to the UK, and others are specific to Scotland. I hope that we can deal with them in Committee.

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6.54 pm

Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby): Like the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith), I welcome the Bill. I was encouraged by the speech of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who referred several times to the Bill's holistic approach, which I particularly applaud.

Pollution knows no departmental boundaries or national frontiers. I ask the Government to go further in their holistic approach and encourage greater co-operation between Departments. The Bill raises that matter several times, particularly with regard to the Ministry of Agriculture.

Air pollution, for instance, is an environmental issue that also involves the Department of Transport, the Department of Trade and Industry with responsibility for energy, and the Department of Health; and air pollution from cars involves the Department for Education, because of children being driven to school. I recognise the interdepartmental co-operation that exists, but I trust that the approach in the Bill will be taken further, with interdepartmental discussion and joint action.

I am sure that all hon. Members will recall that my maiden speech was on recycling, although I recognise no hon. Member who was there when I made it. I was pleased, therefore, to see that the Bill contains provisions for a national waste strategy.

Producer responsibility is the route to follow, and that can be done without too much disagreement and with a great deal of common sense, and will benefit us all. The saving in landfill is of great benefit and, besides less energy usage, a national waste strategy will mean less litter and a reduction in the profligate use of our natural resources and in pollution.

I welcomed the landfill tax introduced in the last Budget as an example of interdepartmental co-operation and an holistic approach. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State mentioned VAT on fuel, and a carrot-and-stick approach to energy is essential. Paying more for fuel is a stick, while greater encouragement to save fuel, including such schemes as the home energy efficiency scheme funded by the Government, can be a carrot. Through such schemes, we can encourage a change in attitude.

A change in attitude is also required on air pollution from motor vehicles. Almost all of us use cars. I received a letter today from a Leicestershire cycling group concerned at the police's attitude to a sponsored cycle ride that the group wished to do on lanes around my constituency. The letter from the police suggested that the group cancel the ride because it might interfere with car drivers. Such attitudes need to be changed. If no hon. Member ever used a car when he could walk, cycle or take public transport, that would be a change in attitude. Few of us, I fear, take that attitude-- I am guilty along with everybody else. One of my hon. Friends on the Front Bench recently commented that he would not dream of taking public transport with his red boxes. We are in a position of being able to lead by both example and legislation--by carrot and by stick. Air pollution from motor vehicles could be curbed by further progress on vehicle emission tests. Westminster city council held an exhibition today in the Jubilee Room about its desire to introduce kerbside emission tests. The Government may also examine that matter in the Bill.

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My right hon. Friend discussed energy-- nuclear, wind and coal. The environment agency may be able to influence the use of alternative sources of energy, in which the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) and I share an interest. Combined heat and power currently finds little encouragement from the non- fossil fuel obligation. Moreover, the Energy Saving Trust is not receiving the support it should. We need an holistic approach, so that the left hand and right hand of Government work together.

In common with other hon. Members, I welcome the fact that the provisions of the Bill will help to protect hedgerows. I am also pleased that the importance of close co-operation between the environment agency and the Ministry of Agriculture is recognised in the Bill. The agency should also concentrate some of its work on the common agricultural policy, because it is still encouraging intensive agriculture, which is the greatest threat to our hedges and landscape. Many farmers may disagree about that, but, once again, the carrot and the stick is the best approach.

Conservation grants should be paid towards better hedgerow management, hedgerow conservation and hedge laying, and further legislation should be introduced to protect hedges. To combat the effects of some aspects of the CAP, economic conditions should be created that do not encourage hedge destruction. I believe that the CAP is unreformable, but at least the environment agency may influence the development of the countryside and of agriculture. The Bill will go some way towards that goal.

I hope that the Government's examination of rural policy and the future of the countryside will be tied in closely to the work of the new environment protection agency. Undoubtedly, the NRA will already have made representations about rural policy, so the new agency must work hand in hand with such proposals and not in opposition to them when deciding any future rural policy.

I should like to highlight the importance of wildlife conservation, which is referred to specifically in clauses 6 and 7, as well as elsewhere in the Bill. Although the agency will be responsible for the flora and fauna of the aquatic environment and wildlife habitat, it should be possible for it to adopt an holistic approach. It could consider conducting a research project on the feasibility of eradicating mink, because no one else seems to be responsible for controlling that pest. I recently introduced a Bill to that effect. I have since been told that, in my constituency, which is intensively farmed, one farmer has caught 36 mink in 20 months in one small stream. In the past year, 17 mink have also been caught near the village where I live in a stream over which everyone in the House could jump with ease.

We must further investigate fixed penalties for fishing offences. The organised poaching of salmon and trout is big business, and it may also pose a threat to life and limb, especially for water bailiffs. Such poaching is treated too laxly by some courts. I hope that the introduction of fixed penalties will not reduce such organised major criminal activity to the same status as a parking fine.

I share the concern of some of my constituents at the Government's intention to revoke some mineral extraction permissions. I applaud their decision to consider some provisions that may have been made before the last world war, and I accept that many are wholly inappropriate.

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As a principle, however, the Government should not consider taking assets without some reasonable compensation. If companies or individuals have bought land with mineral extraction permission and invested money in development, research and inquiry, the Government and the House should be wary of taking away such an asset without considering how those individuals and companies should be compensated.

I commend the trends in the Government's environmental policy of recent years--evident from, for example, policy planning guidance note 13 from the Department of the Environment; the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981; the creation of the NFFO; the establishment of the NRA; and the Government's encouragement of cycling. I applaud those steps in the right direction, but we need to go further. The Bill represents another welcome step. I accept that it could be improved still further, and I hope that it will be in Committee, but it is designed to protect our environment through sustainable development, and to preserve our countryside for the future. I commend the Bill.

7.3 pm

Mr. Gareth Wardell (Gower): This is an important Bill. It disturbs me more than a little to see that neither the Secretary of State for Wales nor either of his Ministers has graced the Chamber during the debate on this fundamental measure, not least because it will have a huge impact on the Welsh environment. I hope that a precedent has not been set when a Bill of such importance does not merit the attention of Ministers of the Welsh Office.

I shall confine my comments to four topics into which the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, of which I am the Chairman, has conducted inquiries-- coastal protection, contaminated land, waste disposal and abandoned minewater discharges.

As for the duties and powers that we will invest in the new environment agency for coastal protection, we must concede background information of the past few weeks, which has revealed further supporting evidence of global warming, with a consequent rise in sea levels. To provide the new agency with the flexibility to plan for and cope with that change, I hope that the coastal zone for planning will be extended to 12 miles, as recommended by the Select Committee on the Environment.

The creation of the new agency offers the opportunity to effect that measure, which would enable integrated planning, involving the conflicting interests of land use, flood defences, coastal erosion, fisheries, conservation, aggregate dredging and discharges from ships at sea, which grossly pollute our beaches.

I should like the new agency to have the power to negotiate agreements with local planning authorities for coastal exclusion zones, where no development should take place because of the risk of flooding. Anyone who saw the flooding of Towyn in north Wales will appreciate the need to strengthen existing practices governing coastal development.

I also hope that the agency will be given powers to determine applications for aggregate dredging licences. It seems absolutely ridiculous that the NRA or the new agency could be busy liaising with local authorities to construct flood defences or coastal protection schemes while at the same time Crown Estates can issue licences to dredge sand and gravel, which could cause coastal erosion

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affecting long stretches of coastline and strip beaches of sand. Now is the time to invest powers in an effective agency to deal with those long-standing problems with which, for too long, no one has come to grips.

Thanks to our industrial heritage, contaminated land has long been recognised as problematic in Wales. I hope that certain problems with the relevant proposals in the Bill can be addressed. For instance, Swansea city council has practically cleared land in the Swansea valley that was originally designated as the most contaminated in Britain. As a result, that local authority has acquired considerable expertise. When the new agency takes over responsibility for defining remediation standards for every site, that expertise will be lost to local authorities, but the authorities will be responsible for supervising the site and the works.

The effect of remediation notices served on landowners is not clear. I know that the Association of British Insurers is concerned at the implications of claiming on insurance policies the cost of carrying out remediation works. I am not clear how a potential threat or significant harm will be defined by the agency.

If the threat is large and imminent, there is no problem with the serving of a statutory notice, but what happens about long-standing contamination? At what point does it become a potential threat, posing significant harm and to what? Will it pose a threat to plants, fish, birds or people? It seems that the Bill creates new liabilities. Statutory nuisance is, by definition, confined to effects on human beings, but, under the Bill, that nuisance will apply in respect to harm to any living organism and interference with ecological systems.

The Bill also introduces another new liability, because it expands the present statutory nuisance provisions to contamination that has not migrated off site. That means that first party liability is created. At present, statutory nuisance liability for first party damage is wholly confined to health issues and is exceptionally rare.

I am uncertain what will happen when a large development scheme contains a pocket of contaminated land. It appears to me that, if a remediation notice is served on one owner, there might be a real hindrance to developing the site, especially if a landowner is a man of straw.

I hope that some of those matters will be clarified in Committee. I certainly hope that the new agency will be required to liaise closely with other interested parties, to ensure the most effective remediation on a site specific basis, taking into account the nature of the site and the relevant contaminants.

It is vital that the Government reconsider the rationale in clause 54 for singling out some types of closed landfill sites, when they duplicate provisions requiring long-term care of landfills already enacted in the Environmental Protection Act 1990.

On waste management, the Welsh Affairs Select Committee recommended that the functions of the regulation of sites and the disposal of waste should be operated separately. It is widely believed by professions such as the Institute of Waste Management that that has resulted in raising standards in the industry.

The development of a national waste plan, to be incorporated into clause 61, is long overdue and is to be welcomed. However, I would say two things.

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First, I share the anxiety of the Institute of Waste Management and the National Association of Waste Disposal Contractors that the advisory committees to the agency have no access to a member with direct expertise in waste management. Indeed, I feel that it has been arrogant of the Government not to include NAWDC on the teams established by the Department of the Environment to help plan the basis for the agency. That field is highly technical, and it is vital that the Secretary of State appoints an experienced professional from the industry to the advisory committees and to the board. Secondly, a strategic framework for waste management will only be as solid, as effective and as well considered as local waste management plans will allow it to be. Waste management and disposal can have a profound effect on local communities. There is a distinct need, therefore, for local consultation and for the inclusion of local knowledge and experience in waste management plans. I hope that the final version of the Bill will contain a mechanism for ensuring that the regional advisory committees are responsive to local opinions.

On discharges from abandoned mine workings, I have no hesitation in saying that, if various guarantees or commitments made in the other place will be honoured in the near future, the Government have the opportunity to amend the Bill to ensure that, between now and the end of the century, the coal advisory body will be able to take over responsibility and do far more than is being done at present. If the Government are honest about it, what is happening is that many hundreds of miles of streams contaminated by pollution from abandoned coal mine workings from the past are not being dealt with. In Wales, an experiment is under way regarding reed bed technology on the Pelena and Neath rivers. If the Government are honest, it is only at the very early stages of experimentation.

My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) put his finger on it. The true nature of what is happening is that, because of coal privatisation, the Government did not want to put the onus on British Coal before privatisation to ensure that the policy was in place and the clean- up was occurring on a massive scale. I am grateful for the opportunity to make those few arguments, and I hope very much that the Bill will be amended in Committee and take on board some--

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse): Order.

7.13 pm

Mr. Peter Ainsworth (Surrey, East): This welcome Bill has received a great deal of attention outside the House. To judge from my mailbag, those who by and large represent industry feel that certain provisions are too tough whereas, predictably, those who represent environmental concerns tend to feel that the Bill is too weak in certain parts. That suggests that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who has a well-earned reputation for being adroit, has got matters just about right.

It is not surprising that the Bill has excited a great deal of interest outside the House, from the Confederation of British Industry to Lloyd's, the Royal Society for the

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Protection of Birds, the Council for the Protection of Rural England and so on. Many of their arguments will be carefully considered in Committee.

I say that that is not surprising because protection of the environment is the preserve of no special interest group; it affects us all. It affects the quality of the physical world around us, which can have an enormous effect on us as individuals, as well as on the cultural and spiritual well- being of the nation. It affects land and water, on which we all depend for sustenance, the air that we breathe and the integrity of the earth's atmosphere, on which all forms of life ultimately depend. It also involves something that should touch us deeply, and that raises most debate on environmental protection, way beyond party politics. That is the mighty responsibility that we carry in our generation for the world we shall pass on to our children and to future generations.

Not even the most hardened of agnostics in matters such as global warming can fail to recognise that, although the aspiration to pass on to the future a healthy and beautiful world has been with mankind since time immemorial, in our age the stakes are higher, the pressures greater, the degradation more widespread and profound and the time perhaps shorter than in any previous generation. Because of that, although usually I yield to no one in my enthusiasm for deregulation, I believe that the Government have not only a right but a duty to regulate to protect the environment. That is becoming accepted throughout the developed world. Put bluntly, there is no point in having a thriving, deregulated wealth-creating economy if the price is to make the world in which we live at best squalid, at worst unendurable.

We must recognise, however, that every regulation has a cost. The measures required to enhance and preserve the quality of our environment do not come cheap, and it is not the Government who pay, as some people would like to think. Parliament makes the law and sets down the regulations in the interests of the citizen, but it is the citizen who ultimately will be asked to pay. That is obviously the case at the moment with the enormous clean-up in the water industry that is going on. The CBI estimates that about 2.5 per cent. of gross domestic product is being spent on environmental protection. In order to make that investment--it is an investment that will grow, not least as a result of the Bill, in future years--industry must remain competitive and profitable. It will not do so if it is confronted with unreasonable, excessive demands, the costs of which are subsequently forced on to consumers. I am sure that hon. Members would agree this evening that the last thing that we want to do when trying to make progress in environmental protection is to sew the seeds of consumer resistance. That is why, although it has provoked controversy in some circles and has received some opposition today, clause 37, which requires the new agencies to conduct a cost-benefit analysis before exercising their powers in any individual circumstances, is so important.

It would be unrealistic and irresponsible for the legislation to take account only of the environmental aspects of a specific case without considering the cost of putting matters right. The two are indissolubly joined. After all, no one in his right mind would seriously suggest that the Bill should take account only of the costs and disregard the environmental benefits of a specific measure. However, it will be important for my hon. Friend the Minister to assure the House that clause 37 as

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drafted will not, as has been suggested by some people, permit a substantial loophole in the legislation and lead to a long series of judicial reviews.

There is much to welcome in the bringing of the National Rivers Authority and Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution and waste regulators together into a single organisation. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Bellingham) said about that. That should in itself make for a simpler, less cumbersome, less bureaucratic regime. I particularly welcome the fact that the agencies' principal aim will be to contribute towards attaining the objective of sustainable development.

As a former member of the Select Committee on the Environment, I welcome clause 77, which enables the making of regulations imposing producer responsibility obligations for the promotion of the re-use, recycling and recovery of waste materials on those who, for whatever reason, are not registered under an industry scheme. That is a useful step forward. It is right to pay tribute to the producer responsibility group for the voluntary work that it has carried out towards that important target.

The Government have shown a willingness for action on two matters that are not present in the Bill. I look forward to seeing what is recommended to enact the proposals contained in the policy document "Air Quality: Meeting the Challenge", which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State mentioned earlier. As concern about children with asthma is rising, surely the time has come for a new national air quality standard, for stronger powers in that sphere to be given to local authorities and, in particular, for the air quality implications of road transport to be effectively tackled. In another place, the Government expressed their willingness to review and update the law applying to old minerals development permissions. I part company with my hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) over that subject, as I know from a case that is causing concern in Nutfield marsh in my constituency that old permissions can lie dormant for many years, only to emerge unaltered into an environment that has fundamentally changed and moved on. The law could usefully be changed so that, when such revenant consents awake, they can be properly assessed in the light of contemporary circumstances.

Clause 80 deals with hedgerows. My private Member's Bill to safeguard important hedgerows failed for lack of parliamentary time--to use the official euphemism--nearly two years ago. I said then that I still looked forward to a time when effective laws to protect our most important hedgerows would be forthcoming. Clause 80 brings that time nearer. Since the second world war, we have lost nearly half the hedgerows in our countryside. That has happened mainly through neglect, but a large number of them have been deliberately destroyed. That represents an appalling diminution in our landscape heritage and wildlife habitats. The knock-on effect in terms of biodiversity will be felt for many years.

Latest statistics are more encouraging, but, as has already been said, new hedgerow plantings do not provide the quality and biodiversity of ancient hedgerows. There is a clear case for regulation to protect our most important hedgerows--and only the most important. I speak of those which form ancient parish boundaries, those which form

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