House of Commons Hansard Debates for 24 Apr 1995

Mr. Rowlands: We do not want another half-baked education experiment with vouchers. We want nursery education that will reach many wards and communities in my area, and others, which have no provision of nursery education at all.

Mr. Richards: The only half-baked ideas that I have heard on education in the House have came from the

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Opposition. As for vouchers, we are considering an awful lot of options at the moment. Nothing is ruled in and nothing is ruled out.

Mr. Knapman: Could the benefits of nursery education be made available to Mr. Howard Davies, the new deputy governor of the Bank of England, as surely that is the most bizarre appointment since Caligula made his horse a consul?

Madam Speaker: Order. I had a hunch that the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Knapman) was going to be miles away from the question, and he had a twinkle in his eye. That matter is certainly not relevant to the question. Let us have a sensible question.

Feral Mink

15. Mr. Robathan: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment his Department has undertaken of the effects of feral mink on indigenous wildlife. [18736]

Mr. Gwilym Jones: The impact of feral mink on indigenous wildlife is very difficult to assess, as there are often a number of possible causes for any decrease in the indigenous wildlife population and these may be interrelated. The Living Water project of the Welsh Wildlife Trust was established in 1994 and funded by, among others, the Countryside Council for Wales. It will provide valuable survey data in due course on the status of the otter, water voles and feral mink.

Mr. Robathan: I thank my hon. Friend for that response and am delighted that there is a research project going on into the status of wild mink in Wales, as elsewhere. Does he recognise, however, that feral mink pose one of the greatest dangers to small mammals and bird life in Britain- -in Wales havoc is created as the mink spread along river systems--and that the problem needs to be taken very seriously?

Mr. Jones: Certainly, the matter is being taken seriously; there is no underestimating of the problem. As well as the research which I have already mentioned, there are recommended procedures for cage trapping and humane disposal.

Water Charges

16. Mr. Wigley: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received on proposals to amend the system of charging for water in Wales. [18737]

Mr. Redwood: Welsh Water has written to me seeking an extension to the use of rateable values and the release of council tax data. I receive other representations on water charging from time to time.

Mr. Wigley: Will the Secretary of State give an assurance that he will not follow the advice of Mr. Ian Byatt, Director General of Water Services, that there should be a move towards compulsory water metering? That would be wholly unacceptable in terms of public health and it would also be inordinately expensive, imposing additional costs on the already very high water charges. Will the Secretary of State work in co-operation

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with Welsh Water to achieve a system based on the banding or an amended banding, and avoid the crazy suggestions from the Office of Water Services?

Mr. Redwood: There is a great deal to be said for stability, which I believe can best be achieved by using the current rateable values--while giving people the option, where circumstances permit, to choose meters if they think that that would be advantageous or fairer for them. I shall take the hon. Gentleman's representations fully into account in any further discussions we may have with colleagues in England and with the director general.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

Legal Aid

21. Mr. John Marshall: To ask the Attorney-General how many prosecutions took place in 1994 for fraudulent applications for legal aid. [18742]

The Attorney-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell): Specific statistics are not kept in this form, but I understand that there were three prosecutions for offences involving fraudulent applications for legal aid concluded in the financial year 1994-95.

Mr. Marshall: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that in 1993 there were 1 million applications for legal aid? Does he think that the criminal fraternity suddenly become honest when applying for legal aid? Will he look, in particular, at the application by Mr. Gordon Foxley, who received £160,000 in legal aid despite the fact that he was reputed to be a multi-millionaire who had received many millions of pounds in bribes while working for the Ministry of Defence?

The Attorney-General: It is a matter of record that Mr. Gordon Foxley was imprisoned for four years, having been convicted of 12 offences of corruption. He was ordered to pay £1,503,901.80 under a confiscation order. There are currently civil proceedings against him and others connected with him to recover other assets. It is perfectly clear that he had been concealing what he had been doing.

Mr. John Morris: What consideration is being given to the repayment of legal costs where it is subsequently discovered that assets are available or have been recently transferred to members of a defendant's family? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind the fact that there is grave disquiet about the huge sums that have been made available in some high-profile cases? Very grave concern is felt by, I am sure, both his and my constituents on modest means who are unable to obtain legal aid for civil cases involving personal injury or modest claims of negligence.

The Attorney-General: Yes, I understand the right hon. and learned Gentleman's points. He will know that they are primarily a matter for the Lord Chancellor, who has consulted on the question of legal aid for those who are apparently wealthy. A number of responses have been received and they are being considered.

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The right hon. and learned Gentleman will also know that it is possible to recover legal aid from assets that are, for example, recovered during the course of litigation. Indeed, if it is subsequently discovered that assets have been concealed, action can and should be taken.

Mr. David Nicholson: Will my right hon. and learned Friend take seriously the representations made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) and, indeed, by the right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) because widespread concern exists that the legal aid system is not helping people who should be helped and that aid is misdirected, whether through fraud or otherwise, to people who have assets of their own and who do not merit that assistance?

The Attorney-General: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. There are a number of investigations, and there have already been charges in one case in relation to alleged widespread defrauding of the legal aid system. I shall take careful note of my hon. Friend's comments, and I know that my right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Chancellor will also do so.

Crown Prosecution Service

22. Mr. Rooker: To ask the Attorney-General in how many instances in 1994 the Crown Prosecution Service offered no evidence when a case came to trial. [18743]

The Attorney-General: During 1994, the Crown Prosecution Service brought cases to a conclusion by offering no evidence in 2.7 per cent. of cases before the magistrates court and 7.3 per cent. of cases before the Crown court. These figures do not include other methods of discontinuance.

Mr. Rooker: Does the Attorney-General accept that one of those cases before the Crown court involved my constituent, Mr. "D", who had to put up with a two-year nightmare for him and his family, facing six charges, some of which involved forgery, and on all of which no evidence was offered and Judge Cole declared that a not guilty verdict be ordered? Will the Attorney -General ask the appropriate authorities to re-examine my constituent's case from start to finish, with a view to ascertaining whether his former employers, ADT Auctions plc, were not involved in a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, as the case was started at that company's instigation?

The Attorney-General: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me notice that he was going to raise a particular case of concern to his constituents. That case was reviewed. The House will take an interest in the fact that it is the Crown Prosecution Service's duty to keep a case under review at all stages. That duty is sometimes criticised, but it was exercised in the case of his constituent. As a result, no evidence was offered. I make it clear that that means that the gentleman left the court without a stain on his character. I shall invite the CPS to have another look at the matter in so far as that is appropriate.

Mr. Waterson: Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that figures are actually falling in other categories of reasons for discontinuance of trials? Should not that obvious trend be warmly welcomed?

The Attorney-General: My hon. Friend is right. Some two or three years ago, the discontinuance level caused

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concern to the House. Since then, the proportion of cases that are discontinued in the magistrates courts has fallen from 13.3 per cent. in 1992, to 12.8 per cent. in 1993 and to 11.7 per cent. in 1994.

War Crimes

24. Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement on the Government's latest position on war crimes in respect of (a) the second world war and (b) Rwanda. [18745]

The Attorney-General: With regard to second world war crimes, having carefully considered the initial advice from senior Treasury counsel, further inquiries are in hand in relation to certain potential defendants.

With regard to Rwanda, the United Kingdom was a co-sponsor of United Nations Security Council resolution 955, which has established the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. Investigations and the conduct of any prosecutions will be in the hands of the appointed prosecutor, Mr. Richard Goldstone.

Mr. Cunningham: On Rwanda, given the events of the weekend, particularly in relation to massacres, will the Attorney-General say what discussions he has had with the Foreign Secretary with a view to talking to the Rwandan Government through the UN to bring the perpetrators to book?

Is the Attorney-General aware that many people in this country, especially war veterans, are extremely concerned about the lack of progress made in bringing people guilty of war crimes in the second world war to book? Is he equally aware that serious concern also exists among the vast majority of the public about people who deserted the German army during the war and refused to fight against this country not being allowed to receive pensions?

The Attorney-General: Although the hon. Gentleman raises a matter of concern, he will not expect me to answer the final point in relation to pensions. Although the House will be keeping a careful watch on the tragic events in Rwanda, I must say that these are primarily matters for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, and they will no doubt arise in Overseas Development questions which are to follow.

In relation to the investigation of war crimes during the second world war, I can tell the House, as I did five weeks ago, that these matters are being examined with great care and with no delay or hanging about. None the less, they have to be investigated extremely carefully and in detail before any decisions can be taken.

Mr. Jacques Arnold: Will my right hon. and learned Friend note that bringing such people to justice for their crimes during the second world war has been hanging about for 50 years? Could he please ask the Director of Public Prosecutions to get on with it?

The Attorney-General: I understand my hon. Friend's point, but the House reached its own determination only four and a bit years ago. Investigations have been carried out extremely carefully by the police who, earlier this year, provided a detailed report to the Director of Public Prosecutions, who has obtained the advice prepared by senior Treasury counsel, and matters are now being

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examined in great detail. I understand my hon. Friend's point, but one does not rush carelessly to justice in such matters--one examines the issue very closely.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Mine Clearance

27. Mr. Robathan: To ask the Secretary of Statefor Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance his Department gives to mine clearance around the world. [18752]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Tony Baldry): We have provided £10.9 million of bilateral aid over the past four financial years for land mines clearance.

Mr. Robathan: The House will welcome the Government's positive action in clearing up these dreadful weapons which maim civilians, and children in particular, around the world, but will my hon. Friend join me in regretting the fact that some hon. Members attempt to make political mischief out of this issue? Instead of recognising the benefits of the Government's positive action, they try to blame the Government in some way for the mines laid in trouble spots around the world such as Cambodia, Afghanistan, Mozambique and Angola whereas, in fact, none of the mines there originated in the United Kingdom, nor were they laid with this Government's assistance.

Mr. Baldry: My hon. Friend makes a sound point. We are not exporting or laying land mines, but we are funding mine clearance. The United Kingdom is one of the leading donor countries supporting humanitarian mine clearance programmes in some of the most seriously affected parts of the world, such as Afghanistan, Angola, Cambodia, northern Iraq and Mozambique, through the Mines Advisory Group and the Halo Trust, which comprise brave and resolute men doing dangerous and difficult work. I am sure that we are all proud of the work that they are doing.

Mrs. Roche: Although I appreciate the contribution that Britain makes to the clearing of mines--of course,I also pay tribute to the men and women who undertake such dangerous and hazardous work--could not Britain be doing much more in terms of international agreements to ensure that such appalling weapons of war, which attack not soldiers but innocent men, women and children, are not exported?

Mr. Baldry: Let me make it clear that we have not exported any anti- personnel land mines for well over a decade. We want to put an end to any trade anywhere in the world of the types of anti-personnel land mines that are most dangerous to civilians. We want a complete ban throughout the world of non-detectable anti-personnel land mines. We want a strengthening of the United Nations weaponry convention and a significant extension of it to cover not only international conflicts but civil wars and other internal conflicts. I think that the hon. Lady will find that, wherever international action has been taken on mines, the United Kingdom has been in the lead.

Mr. Jopling: Does my hon. Friend agree that there would be fewer greater contributions that we could make than improving the archaic and dangerous method currently used for finding mines which involves sticking

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pieces of steel into the ground to feel them? Is he aware of the encouraging research being done here, in the United States and elsewhere into the use of, among other things, radar, infra-red techniques or the detection of gamma rays which would revolutionise the detection of mines? Will he pay close attention to this research and see whether we can make a contribution to hurrying it along so that these weapons, which cause so many casualties, can be eliminated?

Mr. Baldry: The Halo Trust and the Mines Advisory Group are probably among the leaders in terms of expertise on mine clearance in the world. If they ask us to support the sort of research that my right hon. Friend suggests, we shall gladly look at that suggestion.

Bilateral Aid

28. Ms Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of United Kingdom bilateral aid is targeted towards meeting basic needs. [18753]

Mr. Baldry: All our aid policies are focused on helping countries poorer than ourselves to achieve sustainable social and economic development.

Ms Jackson: Does the Minister agree that a basic need for all children is the right to education? In the light of increasing evidence of the brutal use, in many instances, of child labour, culminating last week in the report of the dreadful murder in Pakistan of a young boy, allegedly because he was attempting to improve the working conditions of his colleagues in a carpet-weaving factory, what precisely are the Government doing to ensure that children in the third world are carrying a burden appropriate to the size of their shoulders?

Mr. Baldry: As the hon. Lady will know, we are supporting basic education programmes in Pakistan. Our aid programme throughout the world is targeted at assisting poorer countries to achieve sustainable economic development, in many instances by supporting basic education. The whole House will share the hon. Lady's concern that child labour should not be exploited as it was in the instance she cites. When we discuss our bilateral aid programmes with countries, we obviously draw to their attention concerns that young people should be at school and that they should not be exploited in that way.

Mr. Ottaway: When considering bilateral aid to Rwanda, will my hon. Friend recognise that the dispute there is primarily a territorial dispute brought about by overcrowding, as a result of excessive population growth? Will he recognise that the stork is the bird of war? Will he take every step to implement the Cairo plan of action which will do something about that?

Mr. Baldry: The causes of unrest in Rwanda are complex and many. However, as my hon. Friend will know, because he was at the United Nations conference on population and development in Cairo, the United Kingdom Government have been taking a leading role in supporting projects to ensure that parents can have children by choice and not by chance.

Miss Lestor: Bearing in mind what the Minister has just said about his belief in education for children, does he agree--this was confirmed by my recent travels in parts of

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Africa--that structural adjustment has undermined many education programmes and that many families are now having to pay for education rather than having it free?

Even allowing for some changes, which the Minister has pointed out, in the definition of low-income countries, the British Government now spend a lower percentage of our bilateral aid budget on the poorest countries. According to Overseas Development Administration figures, 80 per cent. was spent in 1992-93, whereas the figure for 1993-94 was 69 per cent. Will the Minister enlarge a little on the answer he gave a few moments ago? What plans does he have to ensure that aid is more focused on low-income countries and, in particular, on the poorest people in those countries?

Mr. Baldry: First, on structural adjustment, I remind the hon. Lady of what the Zambian Minister of Finance said, Zambia being a country to which we give sizeable bilateral aid. He said:

"We have all heard the many arguments both for, and against, structural adjustment. In Zambia, the argument is very clear. Our history has shown that the costs of not adjusting have been very much higher than the costs of adjusting."

The Zambian Government have said that the results of structural adjustment are impressive, that their economy is stable, that consumer and business confidence has revived and that growth is evident in several areas. Countries that have undertaken structural adjustment are beginning to see their economies strengthen. Secondly, on basic needs, part of the problem is that the UN definition of a basic need is completely meaningless. For example, emergency assistance to refugees is excluded, as are the ODA's joint funding for British non-governmental organisations, support for Voluntary Service Overseas and any projects to encourage sustainable forestry or better water management. The definition is totally meaningless. The hon. Lady talks about the support that we are giving for basic needs. All our aid programme--all of our development programme--is intended to help poorer countries and to ensure that countries poorer than ourselves can achieve better social and economic systems through sustainable development.

Burundi and Tanzania

29. Mr. Sutcliffe: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what immediate plans he has to increase humanitarian aid to Burundi and Tanzania. [18754]

Mr. Baldry: The United Kingdom has committed £89 million to the region during the past year. Specifically, we have provided around £3 million of bilateral and emergency aid for Burundi since November 1993 and £6 million for Tanzania since the start of the Rwandan crisis. In addition, around £13 million has been provided in support of United Nations agencies for humanitarian assistance to refugees in the region, which includes those in Burundi and Tanzania.

Mr. Sutcliffe: I am sure that the Minister will acknowledge the shock, horror and disgust of many people in Britain at the events of the weekend and that what we need is not only continued humanitarian support but a political solution to the problems of Rwanda. Could the Minister use his influence with the United Nations and other countries in the region to find a political solution to

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the problem by holding a regional conference in the area, to try to get the regional countries, together with the Organisation of African Unity, to start out on the tortuous road to a solution? If that does not happen, I fear that the problem will continue and it will be an indictment of humanity.

Mr. Baldry: We are deeply concerned at the loss of life in the camp at Kibeho. Of course it is a tragic setback for the internationally backed effort for national reconciliation in Rwanda. We still need to establish the full facts. There seems to be no doubt that armed elements have been operating within the camps. Equally it appears that elements of the Rwanda Patriotic Army have overreacted, with severe loss of life, including those of unarmed women and children, which is totally

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unforgivable. Together with European Union and UN Security Council partners, we are taking the matter up urgently with the Government of Rwanda. We want an urgent inquiry into the events and firm action taken against those responsible.

It is essential that those who have been displaced from that and other camps are brought to safety, to their own communities or rehoused pending a settlement. We are urging the Government of Rwanda to give free access to and co-operate fully with the UN agencies and non-governmental organisations. As the hon. Gentleman and the House can imagine, we have been in touch over the weekend with NGO partners and made clear our support for their efforts. Funds are being provided in response to their direct requests. In most cases, materials, medicines and foods are available, but we are providing extra supplies as requested.

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