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House of Commons
Thursday 27 April 1995
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
City of Westminster Bill
[Lords] ( By Order ) Order for consideration, as amended, read.
To be considered on Thursday 4 May.
Oral Answers to Questions
NORTHERN IRELAND
Pig Industry
1. Ms Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to visit a pig farm in Northern Ireland to discuss the future of the pig industry. [19607]
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Michael Ancram): My right hon. and learned Friend discussed the position of the pig sector with the Ulster Farmers Union at a meeting on 31 March, when he invited the president to arrange for him a day of representative visits.
Ms Hoey: I thank the Minister and I urge him to visit one or two smaller rural pig farms in Northern Ireland, where I am sure he will be very welcome. Is he aware of the concern among Northern Ireland pig farmers about the cost of the EC directive for Aujeszky's disease among pigs? The cost per pig is being borne by individual farmers. The pig industry and individual farmers have to bear those costs, yet the dairy industry does not have to pay for the vaccination of individual cows. Is the Minister also aware that the Republic of Ireland claims that its pig industry cannot afford to implement the regulations? Will he do something to help the small pig farmer in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Ancram: I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will discuss those matters when he meets pig farmers and the National Farmers Union in Ulster. In respect of Aujeszky's disease, as I am sure the hon. Lady is aware, the Department of Agriculture introduced the eradication scheme on 1 September last year, following extensive consultation with the industry, particularly the Ulster Farmers Union. Implementation of the scheme is progressing satisfactorily and it is clearly important to pig producers.
Mr. William Ross: Does the Minister really understand the great importance of the pig industry to Northern Ireland, whose high-quality animals and semen are exported all over the world? Does he not realise that
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a tremendous industry is in great danger of collapsing, as farmers have just experienced about 18 months of the worst returns anyone can remember?Mr. Ancram: I fully appreciate the hon. Member's points, not least the importance of the pig industry to Northern Ireland. I am sure that, given his own agricultural knowledge, he will appreciate that pig production suffers, and will suffer, from cyclical trends. I am sure that he is also aware that there has been a recent improvement in producer returns, which I hope will be a benefit. In particular, prices have risen from 92p per kilo at the beginning of the year to 107p per kilo--an increase of 10 per cent. I hope that that will be reflected in increased confidence within the industry.
Punishment Beatings
2. Lady Olga Maitland: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress has been made to counter punishment beatings carried out by terrorist organisations. [19608]
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Sir John Wheeler): Punishment beatings are criminal conspiracies; all such criminal attacks are very serious crimes. The Royal Ulster Constabulary makes every effort to prevent those atrocious crimes and bring offenders to justice.
Lady Olga Maitland: I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Is he aware of just how extremely serious punishment beatings are and that 90 have been reported since the ceasefire? Of that number, 51 were inflicted by republicans and 39 by loyalists. Such savagery is unacceptable. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the topic must be put on the agenda in forthcoming talks with both sides?
Sir John Wheeler: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for all that she says. I assure her and the House that Ministers treat those appalling attacks with the greatest seriousness. They are totally unacceptable; they are a denial of human rights and an affront to the concepts of democracy. During the exploratory talks, my right hon. and learned Friend emphasises his condemnation of the attacks and urges all with any influence in the matter to bring them to an end.
Mr. A. Cecil Walker: I am sure that the Minister is aware that my constituency suffers more than most from punishment beatings. Has he considered establishing some form of confidential, covert operation with the assistance of victims, to combat that scourge in our community?
Sir John Wheeler: The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the plight of victims. The Royal Ulster Constabulary will best be effective in diminishing or reducing such unlawful acts if the public help by giving the police information. They can do so in confidence, and the RUC is innovative in looking for the best ways of working with the community to ensure that persons who commit such crimes are arrested and taken before the courts.
Mr. Barnes: In addition to and allied with the savage beatings, there is the expulsion from Northern Ireland by terrorist groups of many Catholics and Protestants, who are not allowed to return; it is a form of exclusion order. Many organisations, especially Families Against Intimidation and
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Terror, fight against both savage beatings and expulsions. Would it not be useful to provide such organisations with extra funding for their valuable work?Sir John Wheeler: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that there is widespread condemnation of such evil acts within Northern Ireland and without. I hope that all who have influence on the persons who perpetuate such acts will use their voices to urge that those acts should end. Voluntary organisations do much good work in the community, often bravely. The organisation to which the hon. Gentleman referred already receives some public money, and I met its representatives recently to advise how it might attract further funding. Such organisations do a worthwhile job, and I am always willing to consider how they might reasonably be assisted to continue their work.
Terrorism
3. Mr. Molyneaux: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will report progress on dismantling the apparatus of terrorism. [19609]
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Sir Patrick Mayhew): Despite the welcome cessation of violence, I can report no evident dismantling of the apparatus of terrorism. How that may be achieved is rightly for discussion in exploratory dialogue with parties closely associated with paramilitary organisations.
Mr. Molyneaux: Given that terrorism will be a continuing and permanent scourge of civilisation, will the Secretary of State enter discussions with the Clinton Administration with a view to designing measures to extricate all terrorists, including those posing as members of political parties, and removing from their hands all instruments of terror and destruction?
Sir Patrick Mayhew: I noted, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman did, that some time ago President Clinton described the need for a worldwide campaign against terrorism. I do not doubt for one minute that recent tragic events have reinforced that opinion, which we certainly share.
Mr. Hunter: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that what is important is not only the dismantling of the apparatus of terrorism but maintaining the momentum in political developments? Was not my right hon. and learned Friend's recent invitation to the constitutional parties to take part in bilateral talks a significant and timely step? Will he make encouraging such discussions with and between the constitutional parties of Northern Ireland a priority?
Sir Patrick Mayhew: I much agree with my hon. Friend that political progress is an important component in protecting people against the scourge of terrorism, and I look forward to beginning the talks to which he referred. This is a single-track process--not a dual-track process, as I sometimes see alleged--to substantive political talks. That single track is open to all parties with a substantial electoral mandate that establish a commitment to exclusively peaceful methods and show that they abide by democratic means.
Mr. Mallon: The Secretary of State will be aware how difficult have been the past eight months. Nevertheless, does it come as a surprise when I tell the right hon. and learned Gentleman that public perception of the
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Government's handling of the peace process of late has been one of vacillation, clumsiness and a lack of any defined strategy? Would he be even more surprised to learn that at times the Government look uncertain, if not foolish, in some of their utterances?Given the centrality of this issue to the lives of the people in the north of Ireland, will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to tell the House how he intends to move from the present point to the round table negotiations, the only context within which the fundamental questions about an absence of violence and the principle of consent can be put to those parties and answers irrevocably gained?
Sir Patrick Mayhew: I very much agree with the importance of proceeding to round table talks, resuming after an interval of some two or more years. I think it extremely important, and I believe that the people of Northern Ireland think it very important, that their politicians should be talking to see whether we can achieve that overall political accommodation which was our objective two or three years ago.
I heard what the hon. Gentleman said at the beginning of his question. I am quite used to a variety of criticisms being made. I should be surprised if this is the one area in Northern Ireland politics in which there is the total agreement that he suggests; but I do my best, with my right hon. and hon. Friends, to secure the maintenance of the important principles, one of which, and only one of which, is that we do not sit down and negotiate the political structures on the future of Northern Ireland with people who, by implication, reserve the right to resort once again to violence.
Ms Mowlam: The Labour party welcomes the exploratory dialogue between Sinn Fein and Ministers, and we also welcome the statement, which I think the Secretary of State just made, that no political party can expect to participate in full-scale talks about the future of Northern Ireland while it retains, by inference or implication--if I understood what the Secretary of State was saying--the use of violence.
Will the Secretary of State confirm to the House the statement that he just made--that he does not see inclusive talks happening in under two years? I think that that is what he said. I think that there was some confusion among Opposition Members and it might be useful if the Secretary of State clarified that matter at this point.
Sir Patrick Mayhew: I am very glad to clarify that. I referred to talks that concluded two or more years ago. I certainly hope that round table discussions will resume very much sooner than that. I welcome the hon. Lady's confirmation of the principle that I described a moment or two ago. It is essential not only that we do all that we can to get those talks resumed but that we maintain the principle which I have described. If we do not, we send a signal that we are prepared to sit down with people who, if they do not get what they want in democratic discussion, are prepared to go outside and resort once again, or support the use once again, of armaments. That is fatal to democracy and to the interests of those who have submitted themselves to the disciplines of constitutional government.
Mr. Robathan: Notwithstanding what was said by the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), may I pay tribute to my right hon. and learned Friend's and
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his hon. Friends' skilful handling of the peace process so far? Does my right hon. and learned Friend not think that the time has come for some tangible evidence of good faith from terrorist organisations, particularly the major terrorist organisation--the IRA, linked with Sinn Fein? When does he think that we might see some movement towards it actually handing in some of its huge stockpile of arms?Sir Patrick Mayhew: I thank my hon. Friend for what he said at the beginning. Of course, he is right to say that this is the time for some tangible evidence of good faith. He will recall that the Government have consistently said that, in order to make the transition from exploratory dialogue to participation in the substantive political talks, a willingness to support the principle of decommissioning has to be declared. In addition, some substantial progress has to be made, including tangible decommissioning of arms, sufficient to signify the beginning of a process-- which must be on-going--and the good faith of which my hon. Friend spoke.
Schools and Colleges
4. Mr. Beggs: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps are being taken by the Department of Education in Northern Ireland to determine the total amount of public expenditure required at this time, to bring schools and colleges to an acceptable level of maintenance, to enable schools and colleges to comply with health and safety regulations and the demands of the national curriculum. [19610]
Mr. Ancram: My Department regularly reviews the capital needs of the education estate in consultation with the education and library boards, individual schools and voluntary authorities. Each year, my Department assesses the priorities within which decisions are then reached, subject to available resources.
Mr. Beggs: I thank the Minister for that response. Is he aware that in the North Eastern education and library board area about £30 million is urgently needed to deal effectively with the backlog of maintenance, to comply with health and safety regulations and to meet the needs of either new or refurbished facilities for science, information technology, art and design, home economics and, indeed, technology itself? Is not at least another £60 million needed for new build and major capital development? If the position is similar across the five boards in Northern Ireland, about £500 million is urgently needed.
I urge the Minister to obtain that level of funding from any peace dividend and to bring our schools and colleges up to date. Above all, we need to create employment and provide hope for those who are unemployed. We also need to revitalise our construction industry.
Mr. Ancram: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern, which I share to the extent that I appreciate that there is a greater need for capital spending than there are funds available within the budget each year, for which I have to decide the spending priorities. As he knows, last year was a very hard year and decisions effectively had to be between spending on capital new starts and classroom provision. I took the view, I think rightly at that stage, that classroom provision was the priority and that it should be given the advantage over capital spending.
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This year, partly because of money that has become available because of the changed security position in Northern Ireland, I have been able to restore a capital programme of £63 million. Inevitably, within that I have to make decisions because the need is greater than that sum. However, when the hon. Gentleman studies my announcements on capital starts, I hope that he will appreciate that not only did I devote a great deal of time to deciding the priorities but I tried, wherever possible, to visit the schools so that I was personally informed.Mr. Worthington: Will the Minister confirm two points about the capital building programme? First, are there not more than 3,000 temporary classrooms in Northern Ireland which, at the present rate of replacement, it will take almost 50 years to replace? What does the hon. Gentleman mean by "temporary"?
Secondly, the Minister will be aware that the Prime Minister has said that nursery education is a priority for the Government. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in this year's allocation of capital there appears to be no money for nursery education programmes? How can he square that with the Prime Minister's promise?
Mr. Ancram: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new Front-Bench role. He and I used to cross swords in previous political incarnations. I am sure that we will now wish to work together for the good of education in Northern Ireland. I certainly welcome him to what I am sure he will find a fascinating portfolio.
The question of temporary classrooms is not unique to Northern Ireland. It is very much a matter for concern when I am trying to decide priorities in evaluating the needs of each school that applies for capital--the state of the temporary classrooms is obviously one of the factors that I take into account. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that some temporary classrooms are in much better condition than others, which must also be taken into account. On the hon. Gentleman's point about nursery education, he knows that the Government are considering the best way to advance the undertakings given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. We will wish to take full account of those decisions in relation to Northern Ireland in due course.
Unemployment
5. Mr. John Marshall: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the latest unemployment rate; and what the figure was in December 1992. [19611]
Mr. Ancram: The seasonally adjusted unemployment rate in March 1995 was 11.9 per cent., which compares with 14 per cent. in December 1992.
Mr. Marshall: I am sure that everyone will welcome that reduction of one seventh in the number of people unemployed since December 1992, which is due to this Government's policies. However, does my hon. Friend accept that that is nothing compared with the peace dividend to which the people of Northern Ireland can look forward? Will not peace lead to substantial inward investment in the Province?
Mr. Ancram: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes a good point. We all welcome the consistent reduction in the unemployment figures which has taken
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place in Northern Ireland. Of course they remain too high for any of us to be complacent, and we want them to be reduced. He makes an important point when he says that peace will itself bring a jobs dividend. I would go further and say that peace, underpinned by a political settlement that brought political stability, would increase inward investment even faster, and would benefit the jobs position in Northern Ireland significantly.Peace Process
6. Mr. Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the latest developments in the peace process in Northern Ireland. [19612]
Sir Patrick Mayhew: Following intensive exchanges with Sinn Fein, we have told it that we believe that a sufficient basis now exists for ministerial entry into exploratory dialogue. Arrangements are being made for a meeting at which the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), will lead the Government team.
Mr. Winnick: That is most welcome. Has not the peace process that has been in operation for the past seven months been a tremendous relief to the people of Northern Ireland, after sustained terror and destruction over 25 years? Although I fully accept what the Secretary of State has already told the House about the decommissioning of weapons, and that Sinn Fein should certainly repudiate all forms of terrorist violence, is not the last thing we want in Britain, Northern Ireland or the Irish Republic a sort of breakaway group, repudiating what Sinn Fein may or may not do and, once again, as in 1970, starting the cycle of terrorist violence?
Sir Patrick Mayhew: Naturally, we want to avoid that. There is no place for violence in any democracy. I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman, who takes an interest in these matters, supports what I have said and, for that matter, what the Taoiseach, Mr. Bruton, has very recently said in the Dail about the impossibility of entering into substantive talks while an implication remains that the use of violence is on the cards. That is very important.
It is essential that the Government continue to maintain their long- established and consistently held position that a proper place exists at the conference table for all parties that are democratically mandated to any substantial extent, that have made it absolutely clear that they are committed to a democratic means of approaching political purposes and that have set aside any connection with the use of violence.
Mr. Hume: Does the Secretary of State agree that the basis of order, which is the basis of stability in any society, has never existed in Northern Ireland since its foundation, that that is based on agreement on how people are governed and that its absence has created the terrible symptoms, such as 50 years of discrimination, violence and killing in every decade, and the terrible 25 years that we have just been through? Does he now agree that the past eight months have given, as the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) said, the greatest hope that our people have ever had? Would the Secretary of State please advise his Back Benchers to keep their negative mouths shut, because all they are doing is undermining that great new atmosphere among the people? May I
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appeal to his Government, whom I consistently praise for putting this problem at the top of their agenda, where it belongs--I thank him totally for that--to move swiftly now to get all parties to that table to create the basis of order and stability: agreement on how we are governed?Sir Patrick Mayhew: I accept what the hon. Gentleman has said about agreement being the basis for stability and for order. That is so not just in Northern Ireland; it is so in every civilised and democratic society. That is the first point.
The second is that I acknowledge that the basis of the division of the community in Northern Ireland is one that denies--that has denied in the past--a necessary element of agreement; I accept that. That is why I welcome the part that the hon. Gentleman and all the other leaders of the constitutional parties have played in recognising the need to sit down together and to fashion a new beginning in relationships that will yield greater agreement.
I was sorry that the hon. Gentleman made those allusions to negative attitudes among Conservative Back Benchers. I would have thought that there was a very unwelcome and uncharacteristically negative contribution by his hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) a minute or two ago. We have been working for exactly what the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) describes. I am glad that that has achieved what I hope and believe is the understanding that I mentioned a few moments ago.
Investment
9. Dr. Goodson-Wickes: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent assessment has been made of trends in investment inquiries in Northern Ireland since the ceasefire brokered by the Government. [19616]
Mr. Ancram: There has been a significant increase in the number of inward investment inquiries received at the Industrial Development Board's headquarters in Belfast and by its eight overseas offices, especially those in London and in the United States, since the cessation of violence last autumn.
Dr. Goodson-Wickes: Does my hon. Friend agree that the transformation in Northern Ireland since the ceasefire has been remarkable, especially to those of us who served there in the early 1970s? Is that not an enormous tribute to the Prime Minister and his ministerial colleagues? But does my hon. Friend accept that peace can be built upon only if there are even further incentives to investment in Northern Ireland to reassure those who, rightly, still have strong doubts about the future?
Mr. Ancram: I thank my hon. Friend for those comments and for the way in which he has used his question. It is indeed evident that the coming of peace has had a substantial effect on inward investment in Northern Ireland. It is interesting that, in the six-month period from 1 September 1994 to 31 March this year, the IDB received 743 investment inquiries, whereas in the corresponding period for the previous year it received 189. Of course we shall always look for ways in which to attract inward investment to Northern Ireland, but I repeat what I said earlier--that the best incentive is peace underpinned by political stability.
Mr. Clifford Forsythe: The Minister will be aware that inward investment requires development, and that
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development helps the construction industry. Is he aware of the allegations of increased interference from racketeers on certain construction sites in Northern Ireland, which in some cases is serious enough for the sites to be closed? Will he consult his colleagues with a view to giving extra powers to C1(3) to help to stamp out the grave extortion that is taking place?Mr. Ancram: Such allegations are matters for great concern, and if there is evidence of any such thing I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members will make it available to the Government. Certainly, my colleagues with more ministerial responsibility in that area than I have will have heard what the hon. Gentleman said. However, when we consider inward investment and attracting industry it is important to show the best side of Northern Ireland and not to allow the worst side to gain the upper hand.
Mr. Bellingham: Does the Minister agree that, although inward investment is clearly valuable, the small firms sector is also crucial? What is he doing to encourage small businesses and entrepreneurial activity in the Province?
Mr. Ancram: Several agencies, including the Local Enterprise Development Unit, are trying to give encouragement to such businesses. Certainly, they are of great importance to Baroness Denton, who is responsible for that aspect of the Northern Ireland Office. When we talk about rather dry facts concerning inward investment, it is worth recalling that over the past two days there has been significant inward investment. First, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Londonderry, East (Mr. Ross), Seagate announced yesterday a £60 million expansion that will bring 300 new jobs to a company that already employs many people in that area. Secondly, Dae Ryung industries announced an £18 million investment in Craigavon that will bring 500 jobs by the end of 1997. Those are two significant announcements of inward investment, and I suspect that they have much to do with the new situation in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Spellar: We welcome the new inward investment, especially yesterday's announcement on Seagate. I urge the Minister to consider the Government's role in providing infrastructure, as there is a worrying decline in the fortunes of the construction industry. Is he aware that recent surveys by the chartered surveyors, and by the construction employers only yesterday, demonstrate a quite substantial decline in the fortunes of the industry? Is he aware of the substantial need of schools, of housing and of roads for infrastructure and new investment in Northern Ireland? Will he ensure that the peace dividend does not turn into a peace deficit for the extremely important construction industry?
Mr. Ancram: This question would have been dealt with more successfully had the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers), who had tabled the previous question, on the construction industry, been present to ask it. Obviously, the matter does not fall within my ministerial responsibility, but I understand that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has asked all his sections of the Department to report back to him on how the construction industry may best be assisted over the coming year and whether expenditure on construction remains the same as previously.
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Arms and Explosives
11. Mr. Cyril D. Townsend: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress is being made over the removal of arms and explosives from illegal organisations. [19618]
Sir Patrick Mayhew: The security forces continue to recover illegally held weapons and munitions. The most recent example was a find on 4 April of a substantial quantity of weapons, weapon parts, ammunition and weapon-making equipment in a house in Holywood, County Down, and the subsequent recovery of a substantial quantity of arms in a house in Chester -le-Street in County Durham. The RUC will continue to seek out terrorist weaponry with the utmost vigour.
Mr. Townsend: I warmly welcome that news. Will my right hon. and learned Friend assure the House that that topic remains right at the top of the agenda? Does he agree that any talks between various groups in Northern Ireland which fail to address that subject could be fatally flawed? Does he believe that organisations, such as the United Nations, and individual countries have a part to play in helping with the removal and destruction of illegal arms and bombs in Northern Ireland?
Sir Patrick Mayhew: I agree with my hon. Friend. I reckon that the people of Northern Ireland and the people of the whole island of Ireland are sick to the back teeth of weapons being used for political purposes and of those who justify such use. I agree with what he said about the importance of addressing that matter in talks as well as with what he said in his concluding question.
Mr. Trimble: The Secretary of State, in reply tothe previous question and to earlier questions, tried to state the circumstances and requirements for the decommissioning, as it is now called, of terrorist arsenals. May I tell him that he did so in extremely uncertain and opaque language, which people outside will find difficult to understand, that the vague and uncertain criteria stated by the Northern Ireland Office provide an opportunity for the ill-intentioned criticism of the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), from which he suffered earlier, and that such language also opens the door to the sort of slippage of the Government's position that has happened so often over the past few months? The only sensible thing to do is to state the clear requirements of decommissioning and the surrender of weapons and to stick to them.
Sir Patrick Mayhew: The Government have stuck, throughout the whole of this period, to the conditions that they have described. It has been perfectly clearly stated that to make a transition from exploratory dialogue to main political talks, in which I trust that the hon. Gentleman's party will soon be taking part, there has to be substantial progress on the decommissioning of arms. I have been asked what is meant by that. I described it in Washington as a declared willingness in principle to disarm progressively, a common practical understanding of what decommissioning would entail, the decommissioning of some arms as a tangible, confidence-building measure to test practical arrangements and to demonstrate good faith and a signal of the start of a
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process. The hon. Gentleman waves his arms as though he cannot understand that, but it is very easy to understand and it makes very good sense.Mr. Shore: In the talks on the decommissioning of terrorist weapons, should not the surrender of Semtex explosives have the highest priority since those particular weapons are clearly in use only for aggressive rather than defensive purposes?
Sir Patrick Mayhew: Nobody would disagree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I am sometimes told that there is a long tradition of hiding the pike in the thatch when violence has come to an end. That cannot possibly be prayed in aid in favour of those who retain Semtex, given the appalling capacity of even a few pounds in weight of that material.
Peace Process
12. Mr. Canavan: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had about furthering the peace process; and if he will make a statement. [19619]
Sir Patrick Mayhew: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I gave the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) earlier today.
Mr. Canavan: I welcome the decision, however belated, to initiate dialogue with Sinn Fein at ministerial level, but can we have an assurance that, from now on, the talks will be as inclusive as possible and the agenda of the talks will be as comprehensive as possible, including constitutional matters as well as the decommissioning of arms? Do the Government now accept that they have no excuse whatsoever for excluding any party, or not fully including it in the talks, on the ground that it is allegedly not constitutional?
Sir Patrick Mayhew: The hon. Gentleman has run together two stages. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), the Minister of State, will be participating in the exploratory talks, and if our understandings prove to be correct, there is no relevant matter that cannot be discussed. As to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, whether Sinn Fein enters the substantive political talks depends on whether it divests itself of what has disqualified it from joining. I have repeated in answers to several questions today what it is necessary for it to do.
Mr. Dykes: As these various complicated processes are gathering pace in a most encouraging way, will my right hon. and learned Friend examine the way in which parliamentarians and Ministers can together persuade the Ulster Unionists to join the British-Irish parliamentary body at long last?
Sir Patrick Mayhew: I am glad that my hon. Friend finds the process encouraging--I think that it is--but, if it is going to continue to be, there has to be the most steadfast adherence to principle and we have to play matters coolly and resolutely, as well as in a sensible and imaginative way. As to what the Ulster Unionists do in regard to the body that my hon. Friend mentioned, that is a matter entirely for that party, led by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux).
Dr. Hendron: When the Secretary of State is considering ways of furthering the peace process, will he
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at the same time consider prisoners, both republican and loyalist, bearing it in mind that many of the young men from both communities who are in prison were not responsible for the extremely adverse environments in which they spent their formative years? Will he please look sympathetically, therefore, at the whole question of prisoners? At the same time, does he accept that the time must surely have come when Irish prisoners in England should be brought to Northern Ireland, so that their friends and loved ones can visit them there?Sir Patrick Mayhew: The hon. Gentleman invites me to look sympathetically at the question of prisoners, but he will know that such sympathy cannot exclude, for example, sympathy with the feelings of the relatives of those who have been murdered. There are no political prisoners in Northern Ireland. Those in prison are there only by reason of having been convicted of offences such as murder, conspiracy, the possession of arms and so forth. Accordingly, those who have been sentenced by the courts will have to serve their sentences in accordance with the law. It is very important that the hon. Gentleman, whose constituency has suffered much from these hideous crimes, should not give weight to the idea that those were somehow political crimes--they were not, they were murders and crimes of great evil and malice, done to people whom he represents, along with others.
Mr. Bernie Grant: Will the Secretary of State clarify whether the Irish National Liberation Army has declared a ceasefire? If so, is the right hon. and learned Gentleman prepared to have talks with it?
Sir Patrick Mayhew: I have no knowledge of any ceasefire having been declared by INLA.
Manufacturing Investment
13. Mr. William Ross: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what further incentives he intends to provide to encourage inward investment in manufacturing industry in Northern Ireland. [19620]
Mr. Ancram: A competitive package of incentives is already available, which has resulted in a number of major inward projects in recent years. There are no plans to introduce changes at present, but the competitiveness of the package is kept continuously under review.
Mr. Ross: Does the Minister agree that one of the great disincentives to investment is the high cost of electricity in Northern Ireland, which is due in part to the high rate of VAT on heavy fuel oil, which affects Northern Ireland unduly? Will he take up that matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
Mr. Ancram: I shall certainly pass on that comment to my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor. As I have said before, when we consider inward investment to Northern Ireland, it is important that we not only look at some of the difficulties, but that we continue to point out that Northern Ireland is now an excellent place in which to invest. In that way, we can attract overseas investment, which will bring jobs to the constituencies of hon. Members representing Northern Ireland, including that of the hon. Gentleman.
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PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mr. John Greenway: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday27 April. [19637]
The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major): This morning, I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
Mr. Greenway: Would my right hon. Friend care to comment on the council tax levels set by the district councils in my area for middle-range band D houses? Labour York is charging £101, a 21 per cent. increase; Liberal Democrat Ryedale is charging £78, a massive 57 per cent. increase; while in neighbouring Conservative Hambleton, householders are getting a £32 refund. Does that not show that Labour remains the high- tax party, that a protest vote for the Liberal Democrats can prove very expensive and that people are better off under the Tories?
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