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the courts all the information that they need to proceed with the case without seeing that licence. Indeed, as my hon. Friend the Minister for also said, the print-out is often more accurate than the licence, giving details of convictions which were never endorsed on the licence because it could not be produced or was not produced--wilfully probably.Of course, if the courts do not get hold of the licence physically, they cannot send it to the Secretary of State and he cannot revoke it. So we need, so to speak, a metaphysical or theoretical equivalent of sending a licence back. The courts simply notify the Secretary of State of the circumstances of the case, sending the licence, if they have it, so that it does not return to the offender. Even if the courts did not have the licence to send, the Secretary of State may revoke it and also has the right to get it back from the offender. That is not really putting a new burden on the courts because they have to send such information to the Secretary of State in any case, whenever they endorse a licence.
That seemed a simple enough change, but it required a large number of amendments, partly because there were several different references in the Bill to sending a licence and partly because, with more than one kind of notification, we need to be more explicit in our use of terminology. That large batch of amendments was duly voted into the Bill, mainly into clauses 2 and 3, which are the heart and soul of the Bill, but also into clause 9, which deals with interpretation and schedule 1, on which I shall say more in a moment.
As a result, it is now possible for the Secretary of State to revoke a licence even without it coming into his possession, although no doubt the DVLA will do its best to get hold of it, even if it has to require the help of the police, as I believe quite often happens at present in cases of disqualifications and so on. More importantly, the changes mean that an offender cannot avoid the licence being revoked simply by pretending that he or she has lost it or by not producing it when asked. That means that we have closed what could have been quite a serious loophole.
Mr. Quentin Davies (Stamford and Spalding): I thank my hon. Friend for giving way while he is on that precise point. His Bill refers not merely to licences issued in this country but to those issued in other countries, especially other European Union countries with which we have reciprocal arrangements, which means that such licences are valid in this country. Clearly such licences can be endorsed, but will he explain how they can be revoked? Will he explain whether there is an alternative? Perhaps we may use the same system. Will he explain the procedure followed when someone with a licence issued by another EU country says that he cannot find it, that he has lost it and that therefore it cannot be sent to the issuing authority to be revoked? Is there an equivalent of the print- out from the DVLA to which we refer in this country and are procedures in place to enable courts in this country to receive documentation from the relevant continental authorities in the country in which the licence was issued?
Dr. Clark: My hon. Friend asked a lot of questions, but I shall do my best to answer them. Let us take them one at a time. First, various licences are completely exchangeable for UK licences--those from, among other places, the Isle of Man, the Channel Isles and Gibraltar.
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If they are exchanged for a British licence, the date on which the test was passed is shown and therefore a probationary two-year period may be identified. My hon. Friend need have no concern on that score. Other countries in the European Union and European Economic Area have an understanding that licences can be exchanged. More importantly, on 1 July 1996, a European directive will be implemented to provide a common format for all licences in the European Union and in the economic area. It will include the date on which the holder passed his or her driving test and will therefore identify the 24-month probationary period. That licence will fit nicely with my Bill's provisions.My hon. Friend asked also about a person with a European licence who wilfully or forgetfully does not produce his licence in court. I am a little less certain of my ground in that regard. The situation may be difficult between now and July 1996, but when the European model licence is introduced--even countries outside the orbit of the European Union are adopting it as the ideal model--the same provision should exist for notifying the central licence agencies in European countries that a licence has been endorsed, so that endorsement would be effective. I will conclude my replies to my hon. Friend, because I believe that my hon. Friend the Minister wants to be helpful.
The Minister for Transport in London (Mr. Steve Norris): It is slightly unusual to intervene at this stage in the debate, but my hon. Friend the Member for Stamford and Spalding (Mr. Davies) makes an important point. At a time when licences are increasingly used in various European Union countries, it seems sensible to apply UK law to someone who holds a French licence. At present, that is not easy to do. The French presidency expressed interest in harmonising European law so that there could be common understanding of offences for which a licence could be withdrawn. It is not for the British Government to withdraw a French licence. The French Government would withdraw the licence of a French licence holder, but acknowledging that an offence had been committed in Britain of a type agreed to be commonly regarded as dangerous. The British Government have been generally supportive, while recognising the great disparity of views throughout the EU of what constitutes an offence and of the treatment of offences. We cannot move immediately to a concrete proposal, but there is room to thrash out the concept of a Europe-wide scheme.
Dr. Clark: I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Stamford and Spalding (Mr. Davies) feels that 95 per cent. of his points have been answered. He leaves 5 per cent. doubt in our mind, and we must take account of that cautionary note. My hon. Friend's intervention was timely because I had just finished my first main point.
The second main issue is of marginally more importance than the first, but in terms of amendments it caused us much more trouble in Committee. It concerns a group of drivers that I had rather overlooked when the Bill was drafted. The main part of the Bill deals with the straightforward case of a qualified driver who has passed his driving test and has exchanged his provisional licence and driving test certificate for a full licence, on which he is now driving.
Schedule 1 originally modified those provisions to deal with the case of a qualified driver who has not yet exchanged his test certificate and still holds a provisional
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licence, so taking advantage of the two- year period of grace allowed in section 89 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, whereby a test certificate retains its validity and can still be exchanged. However, the original schedule 1 did not cover drivers who have passed the test in one class of vehicle and obtained their full licence, but have later passed a test in another class of vehicle and have not exchanged their pass certificate for the second test. There could be two or three tests if people have taken tests in two or three categories.When we first considered that issue, those drivers did not appear to be so much of a problem as the ones with provisional licences only. At least they would have a full licence, with a date of entitlement on it, to show the court or fixed penalty clerk that they continued to be in their probationary period--or not, as the case may be. However, it gradually transpired that, if those drivers held an extra test certificate, there was the danger that they could abuse the system.
Let us take as an example the case of a person who obtained a full motor cycle licence and then passed a car test, but did not exchange the test certificate. Let us suppose that that driver has his licence revoked as a result of receiving six penalty points. The court returns the licence to the Secretary of State, but, as the Bill was originally drafted, the driver would not be obliged to produce the test certificate to the court. Indeed, the court would have no reason to know that he had one.
The driver then obtains a provisional licence under the Bill, because the full licence for the motor cycle was revoked. However, let us suppose that, by that time, he is not interested in driving motor cycles any more; he has had his period of driving motor cycles and he is far more interested in driving a motor car.
So the driver has lost his full motor cycle licence; it has been turned back into a provisional licence. However, he then has in his hands a provisional licence that comes from his downgrading of the motor cycle licence, plus the test certificate that he received for passing his motor car test. He realises that he continues to have the unexchanged certificate for passing his car test, so he sends that off, with his provisional licence, to apply for a full car licence. As the Bill was originally drafted, the agency would arguably have had no option but to give the driver a full car licence, or at least would have had no right to refuse him one, so he neatly could have avoided being retested, as long as he did not take up motor cycling again.
Obviously, that was not right, so I had some amendments drafted. However, I had not anticipated that that involved rewriting almost all of schedule 1, which now appears very different from the original schedule 1. The difference in real terms is not great. It is simply that a new set of circumstances are catered for as well as the original set. However, the result is that we now have a most impressive-looking schedule 1 in five parts.
Hon. Members who have a copy of the Bill will notice that the five parts are as follows. Part I is a general part. Part II imposes a duty to provide a test certificate. Part III concerns newly qualified drivers with provisional licence and test certificate. Part IV concerns newly qualified drivers with full and provisional entitlements and a test certificate. Part V contains some of the supplementary
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explanations and provisions of the schedule. It has become quite a different schedule as different categories of drivers have become subsections of that schedule.The third set of amendments, on which I shall not detain the House long, concerns the procedure that is used when the person threatened with revocation of his licence has a temporary stay of execution, if I may call it that, while an appeal is pending against the court decision that led to his receiving six penalty points, or when he receives a permanent reprieve by having his points reduced or eliminated on appeal--in other words, when the appeal is successful. All those matters are dealt with in clause 5, and the amendments that were moved by my hon. Friend the Minister were about matters of detail, to adapt the powers better to current practice. They make no fundamental change to the principle. One or two small drafting amendments were made in Committee to clarify matters that might have been a trifle ambiguous. I shall not dwell on them as they are not of consequence, but have tidied and improved the Bill, which now reads better.
The important thing is that we had a successful Committee stage; the Bill returns to the House much improved as a result of the detailed scrutiny given to it by the hard-working members of the Committee. I am grateful to all members of the Committee, on both sides, for their patience and assistance. I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Hill), who chaired the Committee so admirably.
1.4 pm
Mr. Piers Merchant (Beckenham): I shall not speak for long as I had the opportunity to speak on Second Reading and served on the Committee that considered the Bill.
I think that the House knows that I give my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford (Dr. Clark) my full support, both for the theory behind the Bill and its practice. The House also knows of my admiration for the way in which my hon. Friend introduced it and piloted it through to this stage.
I shall sum up my main reasons for supporting the measure. Its main purpose is to help to avoid accidents. It is a road-safety measure, primarily aimed at cutting the carnage on our roads. It must be viewed in the context of accidents and what causes them. There are many reasons for accidents, some of which are impossible to categorise, but accidents can fall into three main causative areas: drink, speed and inexperience.
Other measures have, to a large extent, tackled the problems caused by drink driving. Today, while it still remains a problem, it is much less of a problem than 10 or 20 years ago. That shows that legislation, when carefully targeted to deal with a cause of accidents, can reduce the accident toll.
The second main causative factor is speed. Steps have been taken to resolve that problem, but I hope that in future the House will take further action to deal with the horrendous problems that can be caused by irresponsible drivers who regularly exceed the speed limit. Anyone who drives on our roads can see the risk, the threat and, ultimately, the disasters that can be caused by excessive speed.
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The third causative factor, which the Bill principally seeks to deal with, is the risk posed by inexperienced drivers. That is not to say that all newly qualified drivers are a risk; many prove to be careful, responsible drivers who do not have accidents. But a large proportion of accidents happen where a newly qualified driver--a driver with only two years' experience following the passing of his or her test-- is either the cause of the accident or in some way involved.The Bill ably seeks to minimise that problem, but it must be viewed alongside other measures that have recently been taken and will be taken in forthcoming years to deal with the specific problem. It must be viewed alongside greater education, tighter testing and the introduction of the theory test, which is imminent.
The next question that must be asked is: does the Bill successfully answer the tests that I have just set? The theory would suggest that it would meet those tests because theory is bound to lead one to conclude that any driver who has only recently qualified is bound to pose a risk as he is bound not to be as experienced as a driver who has driven on the roads for many years. That theory is also true in practice. To quote just one of the many statistics on the subject, one quarter of all fatalities result from accidents involving a new driver.
Statistics show that young drivers pose specific risks, but my views on the subject differ somewhat from those of several hon. Friends and I shall deal with the issue later in my speech.
Mr. Norris: I take the opportunity to point out to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant) that, ironically, it is 25 per cent. of young drivers, rather than new drivers, who are likely to be involved in fatal accidents. It is important to make that distinction and I am interested to hear what my hon. Friend will say on the subject.
Mr. Merchant: I accept what my hon. Friend the Minister says; I should have been more specific in my comments.
It is difficult to distinguish whether those accidents are caused by inexperience or youth because, by definition, a young driver will be newly qualified because one cannot get a licence before age 17. I will return to that point later in my speech.
The Bill deals not only with accidents--I sometimes wonder whether "accident" is the right word to use, because there is always a clear cause and disaster may be avoided--but with bad driving. Therefore, it will make our roads safer while making the experience of driving more pleasant. All drivers would agree that good driving practices would lessen the physical danger to life and limb associated with that activity as well as make driving more pleasurable, relaxing and acceptable. One realises how stressful and unacceptable driving can be when one drives in other countries where bad driving seems to be endemic.
A second benefit of the Bill is that it will make driving in this country more enjoyable, which I think should please all drivers and pedestrians.
The Bill will take reasonably newly qualified drivers who demonstrate poor driving practices off the roads as solo drivers. They will return to learner status and, when they do drive, they must be accompanied by an experienced driver. That practical effect of the Bill will prove extremely beneficial. The accumulation of six
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penalty points will demonstrate that, in one way or another, a driver is not behaving appropriately when in control of a vehicle on our roads.Unfortunately, to that extent, the Bill will have the effect of locking the door after the horse has bolted as its provisions will apply only after a person has demonstrated that he or she is a bad driver--indeed, an accident may have already occurred.
More important, I believe that the Bill will act as a deterrent. It will become absolutely clear to all newly qualified drivers that they must exercise great caution because they face an additional penalty that does not apply to more experienced drivers--the loss of the ability to drive alone. I think that that deterrent is the more important of the Bill's effects.
Dr. Michael Clark: I am very interested in my hon. Friend's remarks. Does he agree that part of the deterrent to which he refers is the humbling of the macho male who will be forced to return to L-plates and ask auntie to sit beside him when driving?
Mr. Merchant: My hon. Friend has anticipated the third point that I was about to make. He is absolutely correct: that is an extremely important effect. Both of those effects will act as deterrents to bad driving and our principal aim must be to prevent accidents from occurring. By creating a probationary period--a significant new introduction--for newly qualified drivers, we are also telling them very clearly that they are not the same as fully qualified and experienced drivers. We are creating a third, in- between category of driver.
There would be, on the one hand, the learner driver who is protected--or rather, from whom the rest of the public is protected--by virtue of the specific requirements of being a learner driver, including having an experienced driver sitting next to him or her. The second category, which also already exists, would be that of the fully qualified driver, but we would insert between those two a third category of probationary drivers-- those who are allowed to drive alone on the road but who must do so bearing in mind the fact that they will be treated differently by the law if they go wrong.
The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford is absolutely valid. The sort of people who previously felt the sudden thrill and exhilaration of being free after they had passed their test would know that they were not entirely free, but were being watched by the law and kept in that slightly controlled status. They could not behave as if they were unencumbered, as they would be able to once they had passed through their two-year probationary period. I do not want to make heavy weather of the issue, but I shall return briefly to the question of experience and age. I do not for one moment challenge the assumption, which is no doubt valid, that young drivers, by virtue of being young, pose specific forms of risk. We have rehearsed that argument at previous stages, and I do not propose to go through it again.
Nevertheless, I must sound a note of caution. The Bill is not specifically about imposing probationary periods on young drivers. A Bill could have been drawn up to achieve that effect, which could have been in the title and the clauses could have proposed specified age brackets. The Bill does not do that; it is about newly qualified drivers.
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I accept that, by definition, most young drivers will be newly qualified, especially the under-20s, just because of the age limit for first qualification, so there is bound to be a close link between the two. However, I do not accept that the risk lies only among young drivers.I wonder what the situation on the roads would be if most newly qualified drivers were over 50. One can envisage a different era in which that might be so. I suspect that we should still find that in the first two years of driving people would pose a much greater risk on the roads than they would after they had gained experience, because experience is so important in driving a motor car. That is why it is right that the Bill deals with experience, and with a period of time after first qualification, rather than purely with age. It is important that when the Bill comes into practice people bear that fact in mind, and do not think that it is aimed only against young drivers. That would be both inaccurate and, I believe, wrong.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford spoke at some length about foreign licences, and I do not therefore propose to repeat any of his comments, except to say that the subject posed some severe problems in Committee and has not been entirely resolved because of the changing nature of international law in that regard. The mere fact that the House is aware of that small potential problem means that it can be ably dealt with in future.
Another suggestion made in Committee, which must form an important part of the consideration of the Bill, is that it should go further and that some form of mandatory training should be imposed on those who fall foul of the two-year probationary period. In Committee it was decided that that was not appropriate, and I strongly endorse that opinion. It would be wrong to go further at this stage, because I believe that the Bill strikes the right balance.
There is a need for further measures in other areas of traffic law, but not in that respect at this stage, although, as always with the law, as the years progress and the impact of the new Act is felt, it may indeed be considered necessary to strengthen it in one respect or another.
I throw out one idea, merely as a suggestion at this point, that at some future date it may be desirable to consider some outward mark on the vehicles of probationary drivers to show their status. That system applies in some countries.
Finally, I believe that the Bill will be strengthened when there is greater enforcement of general road traffic law. Certainly the Bill will act as a deterrent, but its practical impact will depend on enforcement of the law. People have to acquire six points on their licences before triggering the measures in this Bill, and that will require the enforcement of existing road traffic legislation. Here I enter a plea to the Minister for more effective measures to enforce road traffic law. My constituents repeatedly make it clear to me that many of our good driving laws--laws against speeding and others--are often honoured more in the breach than the observance. Modern techniques such as speed cameras can make enforcement much more effective and cheaper, and can ensure safer and better standards of driving. That is why I hope, for the sake of this Bill, that further action will be taken.
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I strongly support the Bill; I am pleased to be here to see it reach this stage. I often think that if as many people as are injured or killed on the roads suffered the same fate in any other area of life, there would be a tremendous outcry. We would not be here today to talk about this important, if limited, measure. There would be emergency sittings of Parliament to pass major laws if as many as 5, 000 people died each year in rail accidents or air crashes--or in the construction industry or in the North sea. Imagine the fuss there would be, yet for some reason over the years we have become inured to high numbers of deaths on the roads.The Minister and his predecessors have made huge strides in the past few years to tackle the problem. The death rate has consistently fallen even though traffic on our roads has increased. Year after year, ever more effective measures have been introduced as we have come to understand the causes of accidents and how they can be dealt with--drink-driving legislation is but one example of that. I commend the Government's work, but today above all I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford for introducing the Bill, because it is so significant in this regard. It is part of a pattern of legislation that has successfully helped to reduce the number of road accidents. For me, the Act cannot come quickly enough. The sooner it is on the statute book and in force, the better.
1.22 pm
Mr. Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar): It is a great pleasure to follow that thoughtful speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant), and to lend my support to my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford (Dr. Clark). I apologise for not being here for the Second Reading debate.
I have a great interest in this subject. I see my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) on the Treasury Bench today. I recall that he introduced an analogous measure in respect of displaying learner plates during a probationary period, but I am sure that he would agree that this Bill approaches the subject in a better way.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford said that we had had to wait a number of years before seeing his first Bill. The wait has been well worth it. It is an important piece of social legislation which will make an enormous difference to British society and the way in which we drive. Perhaps hon. Members who preach social policies should bear it in mind that the way to change things is to apply a common-sense approach to everyday issues. Even though my hon. Friend, in Committee, had to watch his Bill being amended in a number of technical areas by my hon. Friends, it remains essentially simple and it will have a considerable effect.
The car is a great liberator. It has made an enormous change to the way in which we go about our everyday lives. Essex is the home of the motor car. It is where production of the first cars took place in this country. Cars are endemic in our society. With the growth of prosperity, two-car households are not the exception or the novelty that they were when I was growing up. They give people--particularly young people--a great deal of mobility and their first opportunity of independent travel.
I can remember when I was in the sixth form that a student who had a car was a novelty, but now we see car parks being extended in schools to accommodate pupils'
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cars. We know that the cars that those young people drive tend to be older than the current production models. We know that one of the factors in the great reduction in the number of car fatalities has been the improvement in standards of motor vehicle construction. Last year, I was involved in a fatal car accident as a passenger. I know that I would not be here today had it not been for an air bag and for the safety that is integral to a new car. I walked away with superficial injuries, whereas 10 years ago I would undoubtedly have died.We see young people with slightly older cars experiencing that first taste of freedom. The Bill seeks to ensure that that does not turn into a nightmare. I deliberately used the words "young people" because I want to take issue with my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham. I think that there is a distinction. I have a relative, my auntie Marjorie, who--I am sure that she will not mind me saying this--was in her mid 60s when she passed her test. She took the test following the untimely death of my uncle and passed first time. She is a very safe driver. Having travelled with her from the beginning, I can see an enormous difference. She has gained experience, but she knew from day one what her limitations were. That is the distinction. She realised that she was not as competent a driver as someone of her age who had been driving all their life, and was cautious in her approach. I think that the residents of my old home town benefited from that. I would be quite confident to travel any distance with my auntie Marjorie, who is a formidable woman.
I know that P. G. Wodehouse had views on aunts. Undoubtedly he would have approved of my auntie Marjorie.
Mr. Peter Atkinson (Hexham): Does she have a Ferrari?
Mr. Pickles: No, she does not have a Ferrari, but I am sure that she would handle one with great aplomb if she did.
My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham was quite right about one point, and I commend it to the House: if the level of deaths that we are talking about, even though there has been a reduction, took place on one day in one place, there would be an outcry. Although there has been a considerable reduction--I believe that it is 37 per cent.--in car accidents since 1987--
Mr. Pickles: My hon. Friend is quite right; I meant to say fatalities.
Although there has been a considerable reduction, we are talking in terms of about 80 fatalities a week. I have seen grief counselling up close. I can remember that, after the Bradford stadium fire, full resources were brought to bear on a community that was grieving, but road disasters take place in all our constituencies every week. The community is not geared up to offer the same help and counselling as we offer after major accidents. Family life is shattered by road fatalities. People never recover. I am sure that we have all seen in our constituencies the grieving parents of a young child whose life has been cut short, either as a pedestrian or as a newly qualified driver.
No doubt you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, are a frequent traveller on motorways; no doubt, on occasion, you stop at motorway service stations. One feature of them is that
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they often contain a section with video games, and popular among those games is the opportunity to sit in a racing car or on a motor bike and attempt to go round a circuit. Another is to sit in the cockpit of a starfighter. I am sometimes amazed at the reactions of young people and their ability to drive a pretend car around a circuit with great skill: I could not do that.However, there is a great difference between playing a video game and actually being behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. It is then that people learn that to avoid an accident they do not need the reactions necessary to fly a star fighter; they need the experience not to get into circumstances that make such reactions necessary. Good driving is courteous driving--it is knowing when to slow down; it is knowing not to travel too fast in snow, fog or rain. That knowledge comes only with experience.
I live close to the A12, near what is described as the Billericay shuffle. I am not referring to my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman), but to a roundabout just off the A12, close to my house. It is an unusual roundabout, but the major turn-off is not signposted until half a mile before it is reached. All too often, we see a car in the outside lane, sometimes with its lights on, travelling at speeds well above the permitted limit. The driver suddenly finds that he has to get on to the roundabout to go to Billericay. Accidents are avoided only because I and other drivers put a foot on the brake and allow the driver to get in. Quite often, that driver is a young person; sometimes he is not.
I cannot help but feel that such incidents would not happen so often if drivers had had the discipline over two years of knowing that if they did not obey the speed limits and show basic courtesy to others, they would lose their licences. The Bill will change behaviour because two years of having to drive in a certain way will create a habit that will stick with people for the rest of their lives.
My hon. Friend the Minister has the Chigwell motorway police control centre in his constituency. I had the opportunity to go out in a patrol car along a stretch of the M25 and the M11. Quite frankly, what I saw in just a couple of hours changed my view of how safe it was to drive on motorways. I saw inconsiderate driving, people exceeding the speed limit and people using mobile phones in a reckless manner, despite the fact that we were in a fully marked police car.
What brought it all home to me was what the police said when I asked what was the difference between travelling at 95 to 100 mph and obeying the speed limit. They told me to imagine that I was following a car that suddenly stopped, that I had to slam on my brakes at 75 mph and that I had managed to stop within an inch of the back of the other car. They said that if I attempted that from the same distance, but when travelling at 95 to 100 mph, when I was one inch from the back of the other car I would still be travelling at 75 mph. That is the sort of experience and understanding that my hon. Friend is dealing with.
I said that I thought that my hon. Friend was dealing with social change. As my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham said, the proposal is on the same level as the breathalyser. I think that I started driving in 1967. I can recall people at public houses drinking far too much and taking their car on to the road. I remember the old song by Frank Sinatra in which he sang, "One for my baby and
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one more for the road". It was regarded as a sign of manhood to swill back six or seven pints and still to take a lethal machine on to the road.Such behaviour is now socially unacceptable. Although we will still find people prepared to drink and drive, their number is diminishing. Friends and acquaintances who have been convicted of drunken driving have one thing in common: they feel a deep sense of shame. That is what I mean by the change in social attitude.
We need to ensure that, if newly qualified drivers fail within the specified period, they feel shame and embarrassment at having someone next to them. We must also recognise, however, that they might live a lot longer because of that. If, having passed a test, people knock up six points within the short period of two years, they need to reassess the way in which they drive.
Those people will face something else that will change social attitudes: premiums on insurance. I am certain that a person whose licence is taken away and who must sit a new test will pay not only by feeling shame, humiliation and inconvenience, but by feeling it in their pockets, probably for the rest of their lives. I say to them, however, that it is better to feel it in their pockets for the rest of their lives than to hold their head in shame because they have killed someone through inexperience.
I have absolutely no doubt that because of the Bill there are people who will enjoy a full life who otherwise would not have done so. When the Bill reaches the statute book, it will be something in which he can rightly take considerable pride.
1.37 pm
Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East): The hon. Member for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant) said that the Bill applies not only to young people but to older people, a point that I raised on Second Reading. The Bill's sponsor, the hon. Member for Rochford (Dr. Clark), said: "The hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes) pointed out that he is a non -driver and, were the Bill to come into law, he--a man of mature years-- would be caught within its provisions if he were to apply for a licence. Despite that, he welcomed the Bill."--[ Official Report, Standing Committee C , 3 February 1995; c. 1356.] I welcome the Bill, but I do not welcome the methods by which it has been pursued. After I had been lucky in the ballot for private Members' Bills, I received a letter from the Minister. It asked me to introduce the Bill and stated:
"The attached papers describe a Bill designed to improve the safety of new drivers by requiring those who offend to re-take their test."
It ended:
"If you are interested in taking this up, please telephone my Private Secretary".
I responded by saying that I was broadly in sympathy with the Bill but that I would be introducing other measures. I thought that, if the Government would only arrange the business of the House better, they would not need to seek the assistance of left-wing Back Benchers in pursuing their measures. I am a bit unhappy that, although this private Member's Bill is entirely in order--I am by no means challenging the procedures of the House--it is a pseudo-private Member's Bill because it is a Government Bill in disguise.
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Perhaps the Minister can also tell me why it took the Committee one hour and 40 minutes to deal with clause 1, when the promoter of the Bill has pointed out--Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris): Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying from Third Reading. A Third Reading takes place after the Committee, so he cannot debate any element of those Committee proceedings.
Mr. Barnes: I am in favour of the Bill and I do not believe that anyone will speak against it. We could easily vote for Third Reading now-- in fact, that could have happened earlier in the day. After all, the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. French) said that he did not intend to clog up the proceedings, so that the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Bill could advance.
I am concerned that the debates on clauses 2 and 3 of the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Bill, which were considered its the heart and soul, were dominated by entirely unrelated matters.
Although the Bill completed its Committee stage a week last Wednesday, it has reached the Floor of the House only today. It would have been technically possible--had the promoter so decided--to consider it last Friday. If he had done so, that would have left space for items--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We cannot debate now matters that affect the running of the House and the relative merits of one Bill versus another. The House is charged this afternoon with the Third Reading of the Bill and other hon. Members still wish to catch my eye to speak. I would be grateful, therefore, if the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes) addressed just the Third Reading and nothing else.
Mr. Barnes: I intend to sit down shortly to enable other hon. Members to speak. My speech would have been shorter if I had not fallen foul of your rulings, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Although I cannot say anything else about our procedural arrangements, they have caused such feeling that they have prompted a disability march this morning to the House from the home of the hon. Member for Rochford. I have been involved in that, which is why I have been going in and out of the Chamber.
Dr. Michael Clark: I hope that you might show me the same indulgence, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as you have shown the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes), because I should like to explain that had my Bill reached the Floor of the House one week earlier, there would have been grave danger that the Carers (Recognition and Services) Bill could have been disrupted. No one wanted that.
Mr. Barnes: I am a firm supporter of that Bill, but I believe that if the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Bill had been considered last Friday, arrangements could have been made--
Mr. Barnes rose --
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