House of Commons Hansard Debates for 28 Apr 1995

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman heard my ruling: either he will address the Third Reading of the Bill or resume his seat.

Mr. Barnes: Professor Oakshott, the theorist of Conservatism, wrote a book entitled "Rationalism in

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Politics" in which he said that Conservatives did not feel the necessity to speak. It is unfortunate that, on this occasion and on related ones, they have not adhered to that principle.

1.44 pm

Mr. Peter Atkinson (Hexham): I must disabuse the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes), who haunts Fridays like a spectre at the feast. He claimed that his Bill, the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill, had not had proper time. I assure him that not all Conservative Members are in favour of the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Bill. I do not want to spoil the consensus in the Chamber today, but I must tell hon. Members that I have some serious reservations about the Bill. The hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East, who has offended many of us by prompting demonstrations at the House by people who are persuaded that they will thus gain publicity, should consider that--

Mr. Barnes: Is that in order?

Mr. Atkinson: If I am out of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall return sharply to order. The Bill has laudable intentions; there is a real problem with inexperienced and especially with young drivers. However, there is a sense that the Bill comes out of the mould of "Something must be done. This is something so let's do it." That worries me. We often debate such Bills on a Friday. We run the danger of introducing complicated and unnecessary regulation which, at the end of the day, may not achieve the desired result--which is, of course, an improvement in road safety, and especially an improvement in the driving habits, of young drivers. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford (Dr. Clark), whom I compliment on steering through the Bill--he deserves great credit--could not have dreamt that it would be so complicated or that it would require no fewer than 50 amendments. However, at the end of the day, will the Bill achieve its objectives?

We have the salutary warning of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, which was passed because there was perceived to be a particular problem. It was pushed through the House to deal with the outcry in the press. As a consequence, we are left with a legislative muddle which will shortly have to be put right. I hope that the same will not apply to this Bill. I was surprised, therefore, that the Automobile Association and the Royal Automobile Club leant their support to the Bill. Those organisations are there to defend drivers from unnecessary regulation, yet they are underwriting a Bill that will impose on them unjustified regulation.

My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant) touched on a flaw in the Bill, which is that we are dealing with a question of youth, but also a question of experience, which is the particular difficulty. I give an example from my constituency, which is an agricultural one. Young men and some young women have driven all-terrain vehicles and tractors from an early age and they are fairly competent drivers when they take their driving test at 17 and upwards. There is no doubt that many young people are extremely dextrous and competent when doing the kind of driving required to pass the current test and I have no doubt that those young people will pass the future improved test. It is not difficult for them. Driving tests cannot be a test of maturity; they can be only a snapshot of the driver's competence on the day.

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Here is the rub. Macho young men--let us be blunt and admit that that is what we are talking about--will not be put off by the idea that they may have to sit a driving test again. They will not see that as an awful insult to their manhood, but will simply book another test. In my part of the world, where the test centres do an excellent job, one can obtain a test within three weeks to a month if one is lucky. Within three weeks or a month of having to return their licence, these young men can sit the test once more and pass it with flying colours. When these young men drive cars, they may be reckless and irresponsible, as young men often are, but they are not incompetent; most are extremely competent drivers. We have, therefore, the problem that the Bill will not produce the desired result. I was not a member of the Standing Committee, but I have read the reports and I note that some interesting research was carried out on the subject at Southampton university. It showed that the vast majority of the young male drivers studied rated their driving skills and driving safety as considerably above the average for their age group. This is the problem; they think that they are good drivers. My hon. Friend the Minister talked about his experience as a 17-year-old driver. When I passed my test, I was probably an extremely unsafe driver. I had a sporty car and I thought that I drove it extremely well. I have absolutely no doubt that I drove extremely recklessly, cornering at the limit of the car's ability and travelling far too fast, but it was in the nature of the young man. Therefore, I do not think that having to take my driving test again would be a distraction at all.

Dr. Michael Clark: While I am interested in hearing some of my hon. Friend's exploits as a young driver and his cornering on the limits of the car's safety, perhaps he should consider that someone who has fallen foul of the Bill's provisions and has to revert to being a learner driver would have Aunt Marjorie, the aunt of my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles), in the car with him. I am sure that Aunt Marjorie would ensure that he respects the other road users and the limitations of his motor car and that he would not, for the few months during which he is once again a learner driver, be testing the patience of other roads users to the same extent as he otherwise would have been.

Mr. Atkinson: I heard exactly what my hon. Friend said, but I also heard the sedentary intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar, which perhaps the House did not hear. He said that when I started driving they had to have red flags in front of the car. I must deny that. Red flags had been abolished a few years previously. At the time, I would not have been a very good driver and I hope that I am very much better now.

I shall move on to another point, which causes me some agony: foreign drivers. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Stamford and Spalding (Mr. Davies) intervened on the subject, but some questions are still up in the air. Perhaps I did not understand the answer of my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford or that of my hon. Friend the Minister. If, as an Irish citizen, I arrived in this country with an Irish driving licence--an EC driving licence--issued by the Irish Ministry of Transport, with which I was perfectly entitled to drive, and was called on by a British court to surrender that licence, would my

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right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who is the recipient of such licences, have the power to revoke that licence? I find that difficult to understand.

Mr. Norris: The position is very clear. A visitor to this country using a foreign driving licence would not be susceptible to the actions of the British courts. The Secretary of State has no jurisdiction over the issuing or re-issuing of Irish driving licences. My hon. Friend must remember that a person who is resident in this country is required either to take a test and acquire a licence, or to exchange their licence if it is exchangeable. He will know from the previous proceedings that even if a person has not yet exchanged their licence but commits an offence for which points can be endorsed, those points will be registered on the DVLA computer and can be added to the exchanged licence the minute that it is exchanged. Very few people indeed will fall outside the scope of the Bill, especially bearing in mind the fact that it applies only during the first two years in which someone acquires a valid licence.

Mr. Atkinson: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's clarification. I understand the matter slightly more clearly. What attracted my attention was that clause 1(3) specifically deals with Liechtenstein, which I find a rather curious legal anomaly. Since Liechtenstein does not appear to be part of the agreement, its citizens who are resident in this country and who commit an offence having passed their driving test more than two years previously will undoubtedly escape the provisions of my hon. Friend's Bill.

I took the trouble to go to the Library, and discovered that 27,000 people are resident in Liechtenstein; as most of it is mountainous, I do not think that that anomaly will pose a great threat to road safety in this country. One other interesting point about Liechtenstein, which I accept is totally out of order, is that it is one of the few states which has not--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. If the hon. Gentleman accepts that the point is out of order--he is not allowing me to make a judgment--I hope that he is not even going to raise it.

Mr. Atkinson: I shall return to order. I am sorry to have to deprive the House of a little nugget of information that may have amused hon. Members, but I abide by your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to be able to contribute to the debate.

I am not a great supporter of my hon. Friend's Bill, and I have concerns about particular aspects. Perhaps they will be raised in the other place. However, as my hon. Friend has worked hard on his Bill, I hope that it receives a fair wind in the other place. If it were shown over time that the Bill's provisions were not having the intended impact, the legislation could be presented to the excellent Select Committee on Deregulation of which I am a member, which could remove it from the statute book.

1.54 pm

Ms Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North): I will be brief because I am aware that the Minister has yet to comment and that the hon. Member for Rochford (Dr. Clark) will want to reply.

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This is my first opportunity to congratulate the hon. Member for Rochford on his Bill, which has our full support. It is important that any measure to improve road safety and to reduce the number of casualties, particularly among young drivers, reaches the statute book.

The lottery of private Members' Bills greatly concerns the Labour party. Road safety proposals should be presented to the House in an integrated way, and the Third Reading of this Bill should be part of such a framework. I do not want to stray out of order, but time after time on Fridays it is not possible fully to deal with Bills of the sort introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes).

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Lady may not want to stray but she is doing so. I urge her to return to the Third Reading of the Bill before the House.

Ms Walley: I will endeavour to keep in order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but making time available to deal properly with Friday Bills is a matter of concern.

The hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) spoke about alcohol, speed and inexperience. Great progress has been made in dealing with drink- driving, but there is no increasing concern about the effect of speed. It is important to get rid of the macho image and to instil in young people in particular the importance of safe driving. I am all in favour of that being done in schools' road safety education and as part of the probationary licence procedure. I regret that the Bill is being presented piecemeal rather than as part of an integrated approach. Its value has been amply demonstrated by the hon. Member for Rochford and by the Automobile Association, which perhaps played a large part in its drafting. The AA, as a representative of drivers' interests, should play a role, and I recognise its contribution to the Bill. I acknowledge also the support given by the parliamentary advisory committee on transport safety. It is concerned that the re-test should be a different sort of test. Perhaps we may consider that at a later stage.

Hon. Members who served on the Committee demonstrated the value of the Bill, which is appreciated by the general public, our constituents and anyone who has been involved in a terrible tragedy caused by irresponsible driving.

The need for the Bill has been demonstrated by statistics. I shall now introduce a controversial aspect into the debate because I notice that, on Second Reading, the Minister justified the support for the Bill on the grounds of the results of important research that had been carried out by the Transport Research Laboratory.

I bring to the Minister's attention the fact that, on the day that he made those comments--3 February 1995--in the same edition of Hansard as the Second Reading debate there was a reply to a parliamentary question that I had tabled, which stated that the Government are making considerable cuts in the number of people employed at the Transport Research Laboratory to do that very important research work.

All hon. Members know that that invaluable organisation, the Transport Research Laboratory, is in the process of being privatised. Where would we be if its important research had not been carried out? I have grave anxieties for the future as a result of that idiotic privatisation proposal, with which the Government are proceeding.

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It would be wrong of me not to refer to the sterling work that has been done in another place by Baroness Barbara Castle, who set up the Transport Research Laboratory. Her foresight has given us so much anxiety about the extent of road accidents and so on, and it is important that we support her campaign to retain the Transport Research Laboratory.

Many important issues were mentioned in Committee to which I wish to refer on Third Reading, one of which is the theory test. I should be grateful if, when the Minister replies, he would enlighten us about the most recent position regarding the theory test. Some time ago, the then Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. MacGregor), promised new proposals that would harmonise us with Europe in respect of the proposed theory test. I am still not sure what the theory test will be. I am not sure when it will be introduced and when we shall have an opportunity to debate it.

That subject is relevant to the present debate, because we are discussing driving licences. I hope that the Minister will enlighten us about that and deny categorically that there is any truth in newspaper reports that the Government are backtracking on a new theory test.

I should mention the argument made to me by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) about motorway driving. We must carefully consider the way in which new drivers and young drivers are properly prepared to drive on our motorways and the scope that exists in the current test, or in the retesting that will take place, to ensure that people are capable of motorway driving and properly prepared to undertake it.

Other issues were mentioned in Committee. There was discussion about whether two years was the right probationary period and whether it should be longer or shorter. The issue of whether we are concerned with new drivers or young drivers also arose, and has been amply covered in the debate that we have just had.

Another issue that was mentioned in Committee was the form that our driving licence should take. I refer specifically to the debate that took place with my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) about licences and counterpart licences. We shall need to return to that subject, and it would have been better if we had had an integrated measure so that we could clear all the anomalies in respect of future European harmonisation now, rather than later.

Finally, there is the issue of the way in which people are prepared for driving tests. I bring to the attention of the House further replies that I have received to my parliamentary questions, which show that a very large number of days is lost as a result of sickness of examiners employed by the Driving Standards Agency. In 1994, about 29,965 days were lost as a result of examiner sickness. That is an important statistic because it has a great bearing on the way in which we prepare people for driving tests and then ensure that, having passed their test, they are able to drive vehicles safely. With those few comments I should like to repeat that we support the Bill. However, I regret that we do not have an integrated framework to address the serious issue of road safety.

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2.4 pm

The Minister for Transport in London (Mr. Steve Norris): I shall first pick up on the last point made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley), who leads for the Opposition on these important matters. She advanced an astonishing proposition. She is critical of the Bill on the basis that it is a piecemeal, not an integrated, measure. In my experience words such as "integrated" are among the most dangerous in the English language. I know that an integrated transport policy means any transport policy other than the one being practised by the Government of the day.

I shall pass over that matter and merely record that when the hon. Lady talks about the measure being piecemeal and not integrated, it is clear that she does not have the vaguest idea what she is talking about. She referred to the desirability of incorporating legislation on counterpart licences. In Committee, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) referred to that subject while relying on the patience of the Chairman. There were those of us who, in our untutored way, thought that those observations might be well out of order, but my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Hill) is a generous man and he allowed the debate to continue.

I make that point merely to observe, in parenthesis, that the notion that any delay on the Bill was brought about by Conservative Members is exploded once one realises that in the last few seconds of the Committee stage, at about quarter to one, the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) popped up, having deigned to visit us for a few seconds--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. As I have already said, we cannot discuss today what happened in Committee. We must get on to the subject of Third Reading, however tempting it may be to reflect on the Bill's Committee stage.

Mr. Norris: I beg your pardon, Mr. Deputy Speaker. When one hears nonsense such as that spoken by the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes), it is intolerably difficult to restrain oneself. However, I understand that I cannot respond except to say how much of the responsibility for the Committee proceedings lay with Opposition Members.

I shall return to the subject of counterpart licences. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North is effectively saying that we should never legislate. The hon. Lady describes as piecemeal the current process whereby measures that will improve road safety and save lives can be brought before the House. The excellent measure introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford (Dr. Clark) has been taken so far through the House, but the hon. Lady says that we should not proceed with it until we are ready to proceed on counterpart licences, which is likely to be years away. If that is what the hon. Lady means by integrated, I should like to be the first Transport Minister to say that, in that respect at least, I do not want an integrated policy. I want very little of what the Opposition have to offer on Transport, but I certainly do not want that definition of an integrated transport policy.

The hon Lady's reference to an integrated transport policy was about as relevant as her remarks on the Transport Research Laboratory. Even before you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, invite me not to do so, I shall not proceed to debate the merits of privatising the Transport Research

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Laboratory. Even if the hon. Lady's comments had been relevant, which they were not, they were utterly outwith the scope of the Bill. That laboratory is an excellent organisation and will no doubt continue to do excellent research, much of which will be funded by the Department.

The hon. Lady made a number of points about the theory test--about its adequacy and about announcements. I can confirm that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport will be making an announcement about the theory tests, which is an important one of the four planks of our policy for new drivers--

Ms Walley: When?

Mr. Norris: We shall shortly be able to do that. If the hon. Lady imagines that it is a matter of no consequence that can be disposed of in a few minutes, that shows how unfitted she and her hon. Friends are for office.

I have searched the Bill and found not the slightest reference to theory testing. On that basis, it seems that it is an alleyway down which I should not proceed. It would be equally inappropriate for me to debate Driving Standards Agency absenteeism. It has come to a pretty pass when speakers who should address such matters as retesting new drivers attempt to tie in such concepts as absenteeism among DSA staff. That shows massive generosity on your part, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Ms Walley: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Will he inform the House when he intends to introduce new measures about theory tests for drivers?

Mr. Norris: As I have said, my right hon. Friend will make an announcement about the theory test in due course. I am aware of the hon. Lady's propensity for making trouble and for spreading despondency when none is justified, so I make it quite clear that theory testing remains an important part of our armoury of measures in relation to new drivers. In any event, it is a requirement of the second European Community driver licence directive, as she should appreciate. We will bring forward our proposals in due course; we will certainly not be rushed into doing so by the hon. Member Stoke-on-Trent, North or by any of her hon. Friends.

I say to the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East that perhaps it is best to view legislation of this sort from the perspective of a left-wing non- driver, which is how he described himself. I am not entirely sure whether "left-wing" relates to the fact that we drive on the left-hand side of the road in this country or whether it has political connotations. The implications of his statement have escaped me on previous occasions and they do so again today. It is the hon. Gentleman's practice in such matters never to be confused by the facts and, if possible, to talk from a position of total inexperience, because in that way he may indulge in the greatest flights of fancy.

The Department of Transport has welcomed the concept of the Bill. The Government are constrained in the amount of time available to introduce Bills of this sort, so we are very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford for his initiative and for the work that he has done in introducing the legislation. Its passage has not been easy--as he said, there have been a large number of amendments.

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In addressing the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson), I suggest that there is no danger of the Bill meeting the fate that might have been accorded to the excellent Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. As former parliamentary private secretary to the then Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker), who performed excellently in that role, I have yet to be persuaded that that is not extremely useful legislation. More to the point, this legislation was agreed throughout the Committee stage. Furthermore, and more importantly, it is not likely to be drawn to my hon. Friend's attention as a deregulatory measure. My hon. Friend should understand that, to the Government, deregulation has never meant any reduction in safety standards or in standards of consumer protection. Labour Members often allege that, when we deregulate, we automatically reduce safety standards. The Government have always made it clear that safety is one of our most important priorities.

I suggest to my hon. Friend that we are not performing the role of a good deregulator--that is, removing unnecessary legislation; eliminating unnecessary burdens on business is the principal function of deregulation-- but are putting on the statute book legislation that will save lives. As an innate deregulator, I have no difficulty with that concept.

Mr. Peter Atkinson: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I remain concerned that the legislation will not achieve its objective. If it fails to influence the behaviour of young and inexperienced drivers, my point is that it must then be removed from the statute book.

Mr. Norris: I have no objection to the concept that if the Bill proves ineffective--I stress the fact that in my view and in the view of every professional organisation involved, that is extraordinarily unlikely- -the first to want it removed would be my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford. Nobody is in the business of clogging up the shelves with additional legislation that has proved ineffective. However, it is true that my hon. Friend's point goes to the heart of the Bill.

My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant), in a thoughtful and helpful speech characteristic of his approach throughout our proceedings on the Bill, drew attention to the essential difference between an experienced new driver and a young driver. He said that there were two types of new driver--inexperienced drivers who, like Aunt Marjorie, the aunt of my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles), are no longer young, although they may be still in their first flush, and those who are both young and inexperienced.

We should not detain ourselves long on the issue, because, throughout the debate, the essential points have been made. My hon. Friend is right that the hallmark of inexperienced but mature drivers is an awareness of their own limitations. Because such drivers are more responsible, they tend to drive within those limitations. I agree that, statistically, they represent a significantly lower risk than young drivers in terms of their propensity to cause accidents. My hon. Friend also made a point that has emerged throughout our proceedings--that young people are extraordinarily adept. Their reactions are fast and they are good at handling the vehicle itself. That is precisely what

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my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham said, but what is wrong with that category of driver is often the attitude, not the technical competence.

Often, part of young drivers' attitude is a belief that they can drive on water, that they are utterly immune from any propensity to have an accident and that they know everything that there is to know about driving, despite the fact that they have held a licence for only five minutes. They tend to believe that they can control their vehicle in all circumstances, whereas the more one drives, the more one realises that that is never true, even with a car that one knows extremely well.

I suspect that the Bill was principally aimed at that distinction. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford decided to call it the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Bill, and I have no difficulty with his definition, but its important feature with regard to young drivers is that it talks in terms of attitude. The AA has introduced a questionnaire for new young drivers designed to make them confront their attitudes and to try to ensure that they approach driving as a serious business.

My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham referred to the concept of the macho young driver, and it was the deliberate intention of the Bill that young people should face the consequences if they build up unnecessary points. They will have to go back to first base, sit next to someone else when they want to go out, display L-plates and put up with their friends sniggering behind their hands. I suspect that most young people would consider that a fairly serious consequence. I must make one thing clear, however. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford wanted to avoid looking as if he was merely applying unreasonable pressure to young people. He could have drafted a Bill which said, for example, that if a young driver had accumulated any points in the first two years he or she should go back for a new test. He could have attempted to introduce a three-year term, but one with a lower number of penalty points--for example, six or even nine points in three years. He did not do that. Instead, he quite properly decided that this measure will have limited application, to a number of new drivers. It will be a useful deterrent in the context--it is crucial--of changing people's attitudes.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham, a noted cynic, appears to be equally cynical about the effectiveness of the Bill. I am prepared to give it a fair go. It may be of interest to him to know that many countries in Europe and beyond place restrictions on new drivers. Some countries hold such powers in reserve as long as those drivers generally behave themselves. That is what we intend to do here. Other countries again make use of probationary plates. Regardless of whether the new driver has committed an offence, he has to carry a plate denoting his lack of experience. The theory is that that helps other road users.

We have looked at the one place in the United Kingdom where the idea is already in force: Northern Ireland. There, people have to use an R-plate-- it stands for "restricted"--meaning that the driver is subject to a speed limit. It has been in force already for about 25 years. We are evaluating research done by Queen's university, Belfast on whether the idea would benefit the rest of the United Kingdom. There are difficulties with establishing what the status quo ante was, because the number of

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accidents then was not in the minds of those who introduced the legislation in the first place. However, the Government's mind is not closed to the proposition.

Almost everyone involved in road safety issues recognises that it is vital to deal with new and inexperienced drivers. This Bill is only one of four measures or ideas that we intend to introduce. First, there is the theory test, to which the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North, like us, attaches a great deal of importance. Then there is the Pass Plus idea, designed to help newly qualified drivers to obtain better experience--and, incidentally, lower their insurance premiums. Thirdly, there is the 16-plus pack, available in schools for young people who are about to become drivers. Those three positive measures are to be allied to this one--which is the stick that accompanies the carrot, and which suggests that it may be necessary on occasion to invoke the notion that there is a price to be paid if a young driver is given to a little recklessness. There should be no doubts about who will be covered by the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham made the perfectly valid point that one or two people--the numbers are very small--might not be covered. I do not want at this point to investigate the status of Liechtenstein, interesting and unusual though it is, because we had a technical debate about that in Committee. The Bill applies only to the first two years of a driver's full licence. Secondly, even if a person residing in this country holds a licence from another Community country, he will exchange it for a British licence while residing here in Britain. So the only category of person not covered will be a visitor. And visitors, rightly or wrongly, are exempt from most of the provisions of the road traffic legislation. There is little point in prosecuting and going through the rigmarole of awarding penalty points to someone if, after enjoying his holiday here, he returns to a far distant country. In all those circumstances, we have accepted that the present arrangements are satisfactory for the overwhelming number of young people who qualify in this country, live in this country and will go on to be drivers in this country.

The most telling point was that made by one of my hon. Friends--forgive me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I cannot remember precisely which one--who said that what we are doing is establishing in the minds of young drivers an attitude towards driving, which, we hope, will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

Mr. Pickles: It was me.

Mr. Norris: It was indeed my hon. Friend--my good friend and parliamentary neighbour--the Member for Brentwood and Ongar who made that point.

This is an excellent measure. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford for the way in which he has piloted it through the House, despite the tremendous interest, which was equal on both sides of the House, and the complexity of the amendments that were tabled. I commend the Bill to the House.

2.25 pm

Dr. Michael Clark: With the leave of the House and with your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall say a few words.

I thank everyone in the House for taking part in the debate. I would like to say a special word to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley), who,

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because of another commitment, has had to leave the House. I was very pleased indeed to have the hon. Lady's support for the Bill throughout all its stages. I know that she was absent on Second Reading due to circumstances beyond her control, but I know that she cares passionately about road safety matters. She spoke about the second test probably being more difficult than the first, but said that it is something that we should have. That is a matter to which we can return.

I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for Transport in London for all his help throughout and for his support this morning. I am sure that such help is invaluable to a private Member's Bill.

If I may, I shall say a few words to my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson). Of course the AA and the RAC are organisations that want to protect motorists and their freedom, but they want to protect the freedom of the 95 per cent.--if not the 98 per cent.--of motorists who drive responsibly, and not that of the irresponsible 2 or 3 per cent. who drive badly. He asked several probing questions that were useful. I hope that he has received answers.

I now come to the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Barnes). I shall paraphrase--it is only fair that I do--a letter from a young disabled man in Sheffield who wrote to me. He noted that my name had come up recently due to my private Member's Bill. He told me that he looks forward to any legislation from the Government that will assist him as a disabled person. He told me that, as he became disabled as a result of a road traffic accident in 1988, he must encourage me and my Bill at every stage. He told me that if anyone writes to ask me to drop my Bill, I should put their letters in the waste paper basket. That is another side of various arguments. I am delighted to see my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) in his place and not hurt overmuch by the terrible road accident that I know that he had. We all have family, friends or neighbours who have been hurt or killed in road accidents. It is important that we consider this as a road safety measure. I am sure that my hon. Friend was right when he said that people who are penalised under the provisions of the Bill will have their insurance premiums loaded. It is quite right and proper that they should. Finally, I come to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant), who has been so helpful throughout every stage of the Bill. I have just a minute to mention him. If I say nothing more, I thank my hon. Friend. He has taken an interest in road safety matters, and pointed out three aspects of road safety that are so important: alcohol, speed and inexperience. As he rightly said, the Bill will assist in preventing people with reckless inexperience from staying on the roads with a full licence. Some Bills are not a deterrent. My Bill is a deterrent. I commend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to .

Bill read the Third time, and passed .

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Remaining Private Members' Bills

REFERENDUM BILL

Order for Second Reading read .

Question, That the Bill be now read a Second time, put and negatived.

TAMPONS (SAFETY) BILL

Order for Second Reading read .

Hon. Members: Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday 14 July .

WAR CRIMES (SUPPLEMENTARY PROVISIONS) BILL [ LORDS ] Order for Second Reading read .

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris): Second Reading what day? No day named.

SCHOOL TRANSPORT SAFETY BILL

Order for Second Reading read .

Hon. Members: Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday 14 July .

ANIMAL HEALTH (EUROPEAN LAW) BILL

Order for Second Reading read .

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Second Reading what day? No day named.

REGULATION OF DIET INDUSTRY BILL

Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Second Reading [ 31 March ].

Hon. Members: Object.

Debate further adjourned till Friday 14 July .

BREAST CANCER (NATIONAL PLAN) BILL

Order for Second Reading read .

Hon. Members: Object.

Second Reading deferred till Friday 14 July .

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