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Clause 49
Initial investigation by the Principal Reporter
Amendments made: No. 24, in page 35, line 30, leave out from `Reporter' to end and insert
`thinks, or the local authority think, fit.'.
No. 25, in page 35, line 36, leave out
`he may, if he considers it appropriate'.
No. 26, in page 35, line 38, after `(a)' insert `he shall'. No. 27, in page 35, line 41, after `(b)' insert
`he may, if he considers it appropriate'.--[ Lord James Douglas- Hamilton. ]
Clause 50
Child protection orders
Amendments made: No. 28, in page 36, line 18, leave out `the' and insert `a'.
No. 29, in page 36, line 31, leave out `the' and insert `a'. No. 30, in page 36, line 46, at end insert `and'.
No. 36, in page 37, line 12, leave out `prevent' and insert `authorise the prevention of'.
No. 31, in page 37, line 15, at end insert
`or class of person specified in the order.'.
No. 32, in page 37, line 16, after `given' insert
`forthwith by the applicant to the local authority in whose area the child resides (where that authority is not the applicant) and'. No. 33, in page 37, line 18, leave out `The Secretary of State' and insert `Rules'.
No. 34, in page 37, line 22, at end insert `and'.
No. 35, in page 37, line 24, leave out paragraph (c).
No. 37, in page 37, line 35, leave out subsection (9).--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. ]
Clause 51
Directions in relation to contact and exercise of parental responsibilities and parental rights
Amendments made: No. 38, in page 37, line 41, leave out `rights' and insert `responsibilities'.
No. 39, in page 37, line 42, leave out `named' and insert `specified'.
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No. 40, in page 38, line 10, after `order' insert`under section 50(1) or (2) of this Act'.--[ Lord James Douglas- Hamilton. ]
Clause 52
Initial hearing of case of child subject to child protection order
Amendment made: No. 41, in page 38, line 35, leave out `granted' and insert `made'.--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. ]
Clause 53
Duration, recall or variation of child protection order Amendments made: No. 42, in page 39, line 25, leave out `be enforceable' and insert `have effect'.
No. 163, in page 39, line 30, leave out from `be' to end of line 35 and insert `--
(a) kept in a place of safety under; or
(b) prevented from being removed from any place by,
a child protection order where the Principal Reporter, having regard to the welfare of the child, considers that, whether as a result of a change in the circumstances of the case or of further information relating to the case having been received by the Principal Reporter, the conditions for the making of a child protection order in respect of the child are no longer satisfied and notifies the person who implemented the order that he so considers. (3A) The Principal Reporter shall not give notice under subsection (3) above where--
(a) proceedings before a children's hearing arranged under section 52(2) of this Act in relation to the child who is subject to the child protection order have commenced; or
(b) the hearing of an application made under subsection (5) of this section has begun.
(3B) Where the Principal Reporter has given notice under subsection (3) above, he shall also, in such manner as may be prescribed, notify the sheriff who made the order .'.--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. ]
Mr. Galbraith: I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 40, line 6, at end insert `; or
(f) any person or class of persons affected by the provisions of section 51(1)(c) above.'.
Madam Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 2, in clause 57, page 43, line 39, after `person', insert
`or any person or class of persons who may be affected by the provisions of section 61(5)(b) below.'.
No. 3, in clause 64, page 50, line 15, after `person', insert `or any person or class of persons affected by the provisions of section 61(5)(b) above.'.
Mr. Galbraith: These amendments have become known as my granny amendments. The Minister is aware of the arguments, so there is no need to reiterate them. I am concerned that a third party suspected of being involved in a child abuse case can have that suspicion laid against him with no provision in the legal process--children's panel, reporter or sheriff court--to entitle that person to any right to be heard or to put his case. The charge can be found against him without his ever having the right to question it. That is an infringement of our civil liberties. Although it is right that the child's interests
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must be paramount, we cannot allow that to infringe the civil liberty of others. That is the reason behind my granny amendments.Mr. Wallace: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. My amendment No. 98, which is scheduled to be debated further down the list, in fact deals with almost exactly the same point as the amendment moved by the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith). It might help the House if we also dealt with my amendment now.
Madam Speaker: That is a commonsense suggestion. Therefore, we shall also discuss amendment No. 98, in clause 59, page 45, line 30, at end insert--
`(3A) Where one of the grounds of referral to which an application relates is a condition referred to in section 45(2)(d) or (e) or (f) or (g)--
(a) the Principal Reporter shall, at the same time as making an application to the sheriff under section 57(6) of this Act, intimate the application to any person named in the grounds of referral, or in respect of whom the Principal Reporter intends to lead evidence before the sheriff, alleging that such person has committed an offence to which the conditions in section 45(2)(d) to (g) relate; and
(b) any person to whom intimation is made in terms of this subsection shall be entitled to be represented at the hearing of the application, and the sheriff may permit representations to be made by the such person, or on his behalf.'.
Mr. Wallace: I echo what has been said by the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden. In the Orkney case, there were allegations involving a third party. Even if the matter had gone to proof before the sheriff, that third party would have had no locus to appear. Even if the allegations do not receive publicity, they still very much affect the individual concerned. There should be some ability for that person to be given the opportunity to clear his or her name. Under the proposals in my amendment, if an allegation relates to offences, which by their very nature are sexual offences--relating to conditions referred to in clause 45(2)(d) or (e) or (f) or (g)--and there is a dispute about the grounds of referral and they go to the sheriff for proof, that person should at least have intimation of that dispute and have the right to be represented and, subject to the sheriff's discretion, an opportunity to be heard.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: There are technical reasons why the amendments are flawed. What is more important is the principle, which the hon. Members for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) and for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) have raised in relation to third parties being unfairly accused. Hon. Members may wish to be aware that amendments Nos. 186 and 187 extend an unqualified right of attendance at a children's hearing to any person who has a parental responsibility in respect of the child and to any person who ordinarily has charge of or control over the child. Those amendments will ensure that those persons, having a legal right of contact or actual care, can be heard by the children's hearing and will have subsequent rights.
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I shall look at the points that the hon. Members have raised, especially in relation to the amendments, and I shall consider them further.Mr. Galbraith: Amendments Nos. 186 and 187 would not include provision for grandmothers, unless they had parental rights. Is that correct?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: It would be fair to say that if the parents were unable to look after the child, parental responsibility could transfer to the grandparents. I shall look, however, at the point raised by the hon. Gentleman, especially in relation to the amendment.
Mr. Galbraith: It is clear from what the Minister has said that amendments Nos. 186 and 187 do not cover the provisions proposed in my amendment and therefore do not deal with the granny problem. It is not a question of whether parents have lost their ability to look after the child. My amendment deals with cases in which parents still have rights and responsibilities but when a third person--a granny--is involved. Having heard, however, the Minister say that he is willing to look at the subject again and--perhaps--table amendments in another place, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Wallace: In the case that I cited, the amendments do not apply. We are talking about a third party in circumstances where there would not be any question of the person having parental rights or care and control of the child. The amendments that the Minister mentioned are helpful as far as they go, but they clearly do not cover the kind of circumstances to which the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) and I have referred. Nevertheless, the Minister has indicated a willingness to look at the problem so I do not think that it would be helpful to press my amendment and I beg to ask leave to withdraw it.
Madam Speaker: I have to put the Question on amendment No. 1 moved by the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) because the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) spoke afterwards. Therefore if the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland does not wish to proceed with his amendment it will have to be negatived. Amendment negatived.
Clause 53
Duration, recall or variation of child protection order Amendments made : No. 43, in page 40, line 17, leave out `(5)(a)' and insert `(5)'.
No. 44, in page 40, line 19, leave out `the Secretary of State' and insert `rules'.
No. 45, in page 40, line 32, after `application' insert
`and, if he wishes to make representations, the Principal Reporter'.--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. ]
Clause 54
Emergency protection of children where child protection order not available
Amendment made : No. 46, in page 41, line 6, leave out `grant' and insert `making'.--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. ]
Amendment proposed : No. 164, in page 41, line 8, leave out `any such order' and insert
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`it is probable that any such order, if made,'.--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. ]Mrs. Fyfe: I would like to ask a question about amendment No. 166. Is training for justices of the peace envisaged and is it intended that an assessor will sit with a JP? The amendment was to be tabled, according to the Government in Committee, because there was supposed to be such a dearth of sheriffs. Yet we have heard since from people who are familiar with the role of sheriffs that there is clearly no need to bring in JPs at all and that sheriffs ought to be available in sufficient numbers to obviate the need for calling on JPs. When I was a councillor, I was also a justice of the peace. I knew nothing at all about such matters. I spent my time as a JP signing people's forms from pawnbrokers because they had lost their pawnbrokers' slips or signing applications for passports. That hardly seemed adequate training to take a decision on an issue like this.
Mr. Wallace: I need to crave your indulgence, Madam Speaker, to some extent. I tabled an amendment which, because we are making such fast progress, I was unable to refer to. It related to the use of justices of the peace in areas where they do not sit in district courts. The amendment that I had tabled attempted to deal with that point and I hope that the Minister will explain how he will attempt to deal with it. In an earlier group of amendments, there was reference to justices of the peace not having training to deal with the very sensitive matters which such orders raise.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: Training will be provided for justices of the peace as the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe) requested. In relation to making justices of the peace available rather than sheriffs where sheriffs are not available, the amendment arose from representations from the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace). In the remoter islands of Scotland, there could be circumstances in which a sheriff might not be readily available in an emergency. The proposal relates not to circumstances in Glasgow or to centres of population, but to the remoter areas of Scotland. It is a safeguard which we think sensible to put in place. Amendment agreed to .
Amendments made: No. 165, in page 41, line 1, leave from `circumstances' to end of line 11 and insert
`for an application for such an order to be made to or for the sheriff to consider such an application'.
No. 166, in page 41, line 12, at end insert--
`(1A) Where on the application of a local authority a justice of the peace is satisfied--
(a) both that the conditions laid down for the making of a child protection order in section 50(2) of this Act are satisfied and that it is probable that any such order, if made, would contain an authorisation in terms of paragraph (b) or (c) of subsection (4) of that section; but
(b) that it is not practicable in the circumstances for an application for such an order to be made to the sheriff or for the sheriff to consider such an application,
he may grant an authorisation under this section.'.
No. 47, in page 41, line 21, leave out
`if not implemented by the applicant,'.
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No. 48, in page 41, line 22, leave out `granted' and insert-- `made, if within that time--(i) arrangements have not been made to prevent the child's removal from any place specified in the authorisation; or
(ii) he has not been, or is not being, taken to a place of safety'.
No. 49, in page 41, line 23, leave out from `where' to `when' in line 25 and insert--
`such arrangements have been made or he has been so taken,'. No. 167, in page 41, line 33, leave out from `him' to `and' in line 34 and insert
`to make an application for such an order to the sheriff or for the sheriff to consider such an application;'.
No. 50, in page 41, line 41, leave out from `time' to end and insert
`when the child is so removed.'.
No. 51, in page 42, line 1, after `be' insert `--
(a)'.
No. 52, in page 42, line 1, after `safety' insert `; or (b) prevented from being removed from any place,'.
No. 168, in page 42, line 3, after `(1)' insert `or (1A)'. No. 53, in page 42, line 6, leave out subsection (8).--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. ]
Clause 55
Regulations in respect of emergency child protection measures
Amendment made: No. 54, in page 42, line 8, leave out subsection (1).--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.]
Clause 56
Business meeting preparatory to children's hearing
Amendments made: No. 55, in page 42, line 24, leave out from `hearing' to `, the'.
No. 56, in page 42, line 25, leave out first `the'.
No. 57, in page 42, line 26, leave out `who will form' and insert `from which'.
No. 58, in page 42, line 26, after `hearing' insert `is to be'. No. 59, in page 42, line 30, leave out from `whom' to `and' in line 31 and insert
`the proceedings are to be commenced'.
No. 60, in page 42, line 39, after `meeting' insert
`, subject to subsection (4) below'.
No. 61, in page 42, line 43, leave out
`subject to subsection (4) below'.--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. ]
Clause 57
Referral to, and proceedings at, children's hearings
Amendments made: No. 62, in page 43, line 13, after `that' insert `--
(a) compulsory measures of supervision are necessary, and (b)'.
No. 169, in page 43, line 18, leave out `, or' and insert `and the order is'.
No. 170, in page 43, line 20, leave out from `place' to `implemented' in line 21 and insert
`on the eighth working day after that order was'.--[ Lord James Douglas- Hamilton. ]
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Clause 58
Warrant to keep child where children's hearing unable to dispose of case
Amendments made: No. 63, in page 44, line 16, leave out from `hearing' to `unable' in line 21 and insert `--
(a) arranged to consider a child's case under--
(i) section 57(1); or
(ii) section 64(7),
of this Act; and
(b)'.
No. 64, in page 45, line 8, at end insert--
`(5A) Where a children's hearing grant a warrant under subsection (1) above or continues such a warrant under subsection (4) above, they may order that the place of safety at which the child is to be kept shall not be disclosed to any person or class of persons specified in the order.'.--[ Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. ]
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