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Mr. Redmond: I thank the Minister for giving way. I draw his attention to a Conservative Lord Chancellor's remarks to me when I wrote to him quoting from a newspaper. He said, "Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers, as it sometimes rots the mind." I advise the Minister not to do any long-term newspaper reading.

Mr. Freeman: I find it hard to discover, either from the newspapers or from past statements by Opposition Front- Bench spokespersons, precisely what Labour party policy is. The Times of 2 March stated:

"David Clark, the Shadow Defence Secretary, said the review" to which I have just referred

"would remove the uncertainty from the Armed Forces".

The Labour party does not have a defence policy, other than the one regarding homosexuality in the armed forces to which I referred earlier. The hon. Member for South Shields has made his party's position clear in that regard, but he has referred to no other policies except the review. The review would cause instability and uncertainty, and it would damage the morale of the armed forces.

Dr. David Clark: On that very narrow point, it is worth while informing the Minister--I know that he is a very


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reasonable man--that the Labour party has established a policy commission to examine foreign affairs and defence issues. It has held meetings, and has received papers from many experts. We are evolving a policy that we will present to the British public at the next election. I am certain that it will be endorsed, and that there will be a Labour Government.

Mr. Freeman: The whole House has heard the hon. Gentleman's message that work is in hand. I think that our reply is, "Hurrah!" We look forward to hearing about the Labour party's policies, but we will not know this afternoon precisely what they are. I have spelt out the Government's policies concerning the Royal Air Force, and I hope that the House will endorse them.

4.51 pm

Mr. Eric Martlew (Carlisle): I feel sure that Opposition Members would wish to be associated with the remarks of the Minister of State for Defence Procurement about the dedication, professionalism and sacrifice of past generations in the Royal Air Force, as well as of our present serving personnel. That does not apply only to the RAF; it applies throughout our armed forces. We are well served by the people who choose to defend this country.

In the run-up to the VE day celebrations, we are delighted that the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, the grandson of our second world war Prime Minister, Sir Winston Churchill, will wind up the debate today from the Conservative Front Bench. I am sure that Sir Winston, who had a great sense of history, would have been extremely proud that the Minister should be replying to the debate on behalf of the Government. However, I am certain that both Churchill and the Minister would agree that victory in Europe 50 years ago was not the achievement of only one man; it resulted from the collective leadership of the wartime coalition Government, the courage and the immense sacrifice on the part of our armed forces and the fact that the people of this country had a single-minded determination to defend freedom and democracy.

It was with the 50th anniversary of VE day in mind that I recently visited the RAF museum at Hendon. I recommend a visit to that museum to any hon. Member who has not already visited it. It is a credit to the RAF and to the museum curator and the staff. The Minister of State for Defence Procurement said that very few present Front-Bench Members were alive during the war or immediately after it. As a schoolboy, I remember the legends and the stories about the famous wartime aircraft. I recalled those stories when I visited the museum and saw the Hurricanes and Spitfires and the Halifax, Wellington and Lancaster bombers.

The visit brought home to me the immensity of the industrial war machine that we developed to defeat the Nazis. We needed not only quality but quantity of aircraft, and we managed to provide it. Although we no longer supply that quantity of aircraft in this country, there is no doubt that we still build some of the finest military aircraft in the world. We should all be very proud of that fact.

The museum collection also contains portraits of the RAF leaders during the war--Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding and the Marshal of the Air Force, Sir Arthur Harris. In recent years, it has become popular to denigrate their achievements. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but


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the reality is that we were in the middle of a major war, we had suffered terrible bombing by the Germans and I think that those RAF leaders took the right decisions for that time. I wish that people would look at the issues from that perspective instead of constantly criticising the leaders' achievements.

The one statistic we should never forget is that more than 70,000 air crew were listed as either killed or missing during the five and a half years of world war two. More than 50 per cent. of that number were from Bomber Command. They made that sacrifice to protect freedom and democracy-- something that we should never take for granted. The RAF still protects freedom and democracy. In the former Yugoslavia, the Jaguars and Tornados are helping to police the no-fly zone. Every day, Hercules air crews risk their lives delivering medical supplies and food to the beleaguered people of the besieged city of Sarajevo. We do not perform those duties only in Bosnia. The RAF served with distinction during the Gulf war and RAF forces are still stationed in that area today. Harriers operating from Turkey police Iraqi Kurdistan. Under the United Nations mandate, Tornado bombers fly out of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to protect the marsh Arabs in the southern Iraqi marshlands. If it were not for their presence, the genocidal regime of Saddam Hussein would reap a terrible harvest among that civilian population. The people of those areas believe in the RAF.

Without the help of the RAF, the security forces in Northern Ireland would not have been able to cope during the 25 years of the troubles. I recently had the pleasure--if that is the word--of being flown from Derry to Belfast airport by the RAF during a force eight gale. The crew members were very good, and I was very frightened and glad to get off the plane. Their professionalism shone through. I think that there is a feeling in some circles--it is referred to in the defence estimates report--that the troubles are over. Following yesterday's incident in Northern Ireland, we must not take too much for granted. We must be very careful when it comes to cutting the size of our forces on that basis.

The people of Britain are very grateful for the search and rescue role performed by the RAF using the Sea King helicopters. At this point, I must express some concern about the search and rescue review that took place in 1992. That review left this country with what I can only describe as a minimal service.

The decision to rationalise was based on the fact that the Sea King had replaced the Wessex. In my opinion, that cost-cutting exercise could cost lives in future. That was realised by the Select Committee on Transport, which recommended that RAF Manston and RAF Brawdy in Wales should remain open. The Government ignored that advice. The reallocation of search and rescue has been criticised by many local communities as response times have increased because of the changes. The change of cover implemented in the North sea, the Dover straits and St. George's channel no longer meets the criteria set out by the helicopter coverage group. Although those areas are not large, they are intensively used, especially by ferries to the continent. If we are not careful, there will be a major disaster and we will not have adequate helicopter coverage to respond in sufficient time, resulting in the loss of lives.


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There is no doubt that the replacement of the Wessex by the Sea King was welcome, but no matter how modern and speedy a helicopter is, it cannot be in two places at once. The number of helicopters has been reduced, when there is an increased demand on the search and rescue service from mountain rescue teams who, for health and safety reasons, increasingly call on that service.

In my constituency, where there are no mountains but there are fells, the mountain rescue service regularly uses helicopters to get injured people to hospital quickly and to safeguard members of the mountain rescue team who have to descend through difficult terrain. I am sorry that the Government have left the search and rescue service severely overstretched. I call on them to take action to redress the position immediately before there is unnecessary loss of life.

Mr. Phil Gallie (Ayr): Can the hon. Gentleman report any incident this year when a helicopter has been requested by the mountain rescue service and not provided, except in very bad weather conditions?

Mr. Martlew: I understand that there was an incident in the channel and a Belgian helicopter got there first.

Mr. Gallie: I was asking about mountain rescue.

Mr. Martlew: The hon. Gentleman is playing with words; he hears only what he wants to hear. There is no doubt that response times have deteriorated and there is increased concern. I am putting it on record before there is a disaster, as the Government need to be warned.

Mr. Bill Walker: Perhaps I can help the hon. Gentleman. The search and rescue capability that used to be at RAF Leuchars in my constituency is sadly missed. There have been incidents when people were unable to get a helicopter when one was required and that is rather sad.

Mr. Martlew: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point. If we keep closing RAF base after RAF base, the Government will need to consider whether alternatives should be used. The RAF would not like that because it considers it to be valuable training, but we have to make sure that lives are not lost.

Mrs. Ewing: We all agree that search and rescue services are an important part of the work of the RAF. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is no need to accept arguments that are often propounded by other hon. Members that the capability represents a cost to the taxpayer, because all the RAF stations involved in mountain search and rescue services regard it as part and parcel of their general training, therefore it is a commitment rather than a cost to the taxpayer?

Mr. Martlew: I understand that there is a cost to the taxpayer, but it is one worth paying. The hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) suggested that local authorities should pay towards it. That is not the case. If there are any grounds whatsoever for that argument, perhaps the money should come out of the Department of Transport budget. I see that the Secretary of State agrees. I am concerned about overstretching of the search and rescue capability and generally in the RAF. We now have 50 aircraft flying on behalf of the United Nations in Iraq and Bosnia.


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Lady Olga Maitland: The hon. Gentleman seems to be advocating that we should spend more rather than less on the RAF. How does he square that with six consecutive Labour party conference motions suggesting that we should cut our defence spending by £6 billion?

Mr. Martlew: I find that difficult to accept from the hon. Lady, whose party has cut defence by 30 per cent. in recent years. According to the defence estimates, the Government plan to make cuts of £1.5 billion in future, so that they can give back the tax before the next general election. I do not accept that argument from the hon. Lady.

Mr. Freeman: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is not seeking to mislead the House on this point, but from 1 April this financial year and for the next three years, our defence expenditure is stable.

Mr. Martlew: The Minister should read the defence estimates.

The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind): I wrote them.

Mr. Martlew: The Secretary of State may have written them, but he obviously was not reading what he had written. On page 136 there is a commitment to cut £1.5 billion. If that is not the case, why did he announce that there would have to be compulsory redundancies in the armed forces in future? It is because the Government are cutting defence. It is wrong for the Government to attempt to mislead the House. I hope that we shall debate the defence estimates before the recess, rather than afterwards, in order to discuss the matter more fully.

The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) has already expressed concern about overstretch, which puts great pressure on the aircraft, pilots and support teams. Current operations are placing particular strain on certain sectors. I understand that the Hercules fleet is facing real problems. We have NATO bases in Turkey and Italy, but the Hercules fleet has to carry out more than regular flights to service those bases. When the Select Committee was considering the matter, it stated that defence policy was being decided

"by the availability of scarce resources rather than the dictates of national interest or international obligations."

The only possible conclusion is that the Government have cut the RAF too far.

I am not totally negative about the Government, as I am a very fair man.

The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Nicholas Soames): In the forthcoming Labour defence review, should it ever happen, will the hon. Gentleman clarify for the House what changes he would be likely to make to the RAF and whether he thinks it would get bigger or smaller?

Mr. Martlew: I remember the Minister saying that he considered his time in the Army as a career break between Eton and the Cabinet. If he carries on asking such questions, it could be a very long career break. The defence review will tell us the answer.

I shall not be totally negative about the Government's downsizing of the RAF. We congratulate the decision of the Secretary of State to remove unilaterally the nuclear deterrent role of the RAF. That role began in the 1950s and continued through Labour Governments, but the


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Secretary of State had the courage to decide to remove it. I only wish that he had the courage to take credit for it. Time and again he comes to the Dispatch Box foaming at the mouth with artificial indignation about Labour Members who are long-lapsed members of CND, when he has done more to reduce the number of nuclear weapons than anybody else in British history.

The Secretary of State came to the Dispatch Box frothing and foaming on the day he announced the cancellation of the tactical air-to-surface missile-- TASM--the RAF nuclear missile. The same thing happened when he announced that the United Kingdom would have 21 per cent. fewer nuclear warheads than in the 1970s. Then it was announced that the Government would withdraw the RAF's nuclear bomb, the WE177. I understand that it is to be withdrawn by 1998, when originally it was intended that it would be in service until the next century. Earlier in the week, the Secretary of State fumed, huffed and puffed at the Dispatch Box about the CND. That was followed by a statement which, on analysis, suggested that we shall have fewer nuclear warheads on Trident than ever before. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has reduced the number of nuclear warheads by 21 per cent. and reduced their explosive power by 59 per cent. Those are the comparisons to be drawn with the levels of the 1970s when we had a Labour Government.

Mr. Rifkind: As I have not been the Secretary of State for Defence since the early 1970s, I can hardly claim credit for comparisons with the 1970s. The hon. Gentleman is correct to say that there has been a reduction in the number of warheads and the explosive yield of our nuclear force, comparing today with the early 1970s and the coming into effect of the non- proliferation treaty. As the hon. Gentleman has been so kind as to be complimentary about the reductions in nuclear weapons for which I have been responsible, will he accept, given that background, that the Labour party's current proposal to insist that Trident should carry only the same number of warheads as was carried by Polaris is based on a clear and fundamental misunderstanding of the respective systems? It is a simplistic approach and the outcome would be very much against the UK's interests. The policy is not compatible with our requirement to ensure the same deterrent effect with Trident as with Polaris.

Mr. Martlew: I would give more credence to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's views if he had not responded as he did to my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) when he asked him to scrap TASM. The right hon. and learned Gentleman gave a similar answer on that occasion. We think of him as carrying on his good work. Perhaps in future he will be known as Malcolm the Disarmer.

Mr. Rifkind: I much appreciate the hon. Gentleman's generosity in giving way. Perhaps he will be good enough to consult the record on my views about TASM since first being asked about it. He might recall that I said that the matter was under review, and that was exactly the position. We concluded that, because we could achieve the same sub-strategic deterrent with the use of Trident at virtually no additional cost to the defence budget, the TASM approach was infinitely preferable to financing at well over £1 billion a new sub-strategic system to be carried by the Royal Air Force. As we could maintain the same sub-strategic capability with a much smaller burden on the defence budget, it made sense to go in that direction.


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Mr. Martlew: I am not criticising the Secretary of State. If, however, he had taken the Opposition's advice on TASM two years earlier, development costs could have been saved.

I must praise the Secretary of State for all that he has done in the context of nuclear weapons. I understand that his honorary membership of the CND is in the post.

The Labour party has always taken the view that we should provide our armed forces with the best available equipment. At the same time, we need to ensure value for money. Wherever possible the equipment should be produced entirely or partly within the United Kingdom. When that is impossible, the maximum offset should be obtained. Against that background, it is no surprise that since the mid-1980s the Labour party has been a supporter of the purchase of the Westland helicopter known as the EH101.

To that extent, the Opposition welcome the Ministry of Defence's decision in March to purchase 22 of those helicopters. We remain critical, however, that there was an eight-year delay in the placement of the order. There is no doubt that that delay lost us valuable export orders. I think especially of the Dutch contract for the Dutch forces. It might be that our Minister with procurement responsibilities had a word in the ear of his Dutch counterpart and thereafter the Dutch bought the French equivalent. There is no doubt that Westland is important if we are to retain a helicopter industry in the United Kingdom and that the industry must be kept at Yeovil. The Minister has talked about the Hercules replacement. The Labour party was of the opinion that the future large aircraft project should be given an opportunity to enter the market. It therefore welcomes the decision that was announced in January by the Government that they will rejoin the FLA project after the completion of the feasibility studies. That means in reality, however, that the Government are admitting that they were wrong to pull out in the first instance.

These criticisms are nothing compared with our condemnation of the Government's handling of the Eurofighter 2000 and the Tornado mid-life update contracts. The Labour party has supported the Eurofighter project since its inception, and it will continue to do so. Unfortunately, there has been a sorry tale of delay and overspend. The EF is now two years behind schedule and remains dogged by difficulties. In February, it was estimated that the total cost of the aircraft would be £14.9 billion. In real terms, the cost of development has increased by a projected £2.2 billion. If the cost of the aircraft increases when it is in production, overall costs will be even higher. We could buy many district general hospitals for £2.2 billion. With that amount, the RAF hospital could be kept open for about 1,000 years, or longer. I am much involved with the west coast main railway line. We could upgrade that line from Carlisle to Glasgow and back again--not that there would be any need to go back--for £2.2 billion. There has been a waste of £2.2 billion because the Government cannot control costs.

Mr. Bill Walker: The hon. Gentleman said earlier that the RAF had been cut too much and that more money needed to be spent on it. Anyone reading a report of what he has just said would have the impression that a future Labour Government, if one were ever to exist, would not pursue the Eurofighter 2000 purchase.


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Mr. Martlew: I am sorry if I did not explain myself sufficiently clearly. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not listening attentively. Spending on the RAF would not have needed to be cut if there had not been excess expenditure of £2.2 billion. As I have said, the Labour party has supported the Eurofighter since its inception. It does not, however, support the extravagance that is now to be seen.

Lady Olga Maitland: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Martlew: I am sorry, no. I have already given way to the hon. Lady.

The Eurofighter is two years behind schedule and it is already £2.2 billion over budget, and that figure is likely to increase. At least the aircraft flew in April 1994, which we welcomed. This is a key year for the Eurofighter because the development phase is largely completed and the four nations involved in the consortium must now sign an production agreement.

The aircraft has come under particular criticism by the Germans. There have been problems between the contractors and the German Government. I hope that they have been resolved. As I have said, we are coming to the point when the contract must be signed for the production run.

It was argued initially that the industries involved would obtain work on a percentage of the aeroplanes built. The Germans decided originally that they wanted 250. They have now decided that they want only 140. The Italians have reduced their take of new aeroplanes from 165 to 120, and the Spanish from 100 to 87. Meanwhile, we have maintained our commitment--I do not object to this--to 250. Those figures should allow British industry to undertake 40 per cent. of the production work on the Eurofighter. I am sure that nobody would disagree with that.

I read in the Financial Times last month, however, that the Government of Germany were threatening to pull out of the scheme if they did not get 33 per cent. of the production work. I hope that in his winding-up speech the Minister will say that the British Government will stick with the original agreement. If the German Government want more work, they must order more aeroplanes. We should stick with the 40 per cent. for which we originally signed. I do not think that Ministers can take any credit for such a fiasco, although I accept that neither the Minister of State for Defence Procurement nor the Minister of State for the Armed Forces were in post when most of the money was wasted.

The Tornado mid-life update is yet another example of the Government's failure to extract value for money or, indeed, get projects delivered on time. The National Audit Office subjected the project to severe criticism and pointed out that the original in-service date for the aircraft was 1993 and that the estimated cost was £540 million. The Minister of State for Defence Procurement said that it was a great project costing £700 million. It should not have cost that. It should have cost only £540 million. Indeed, many of us suspect that there will be at least a £270 million overspend on the project and that it will be five years late. It is another example of how the Government have wasted money in the MOD. No wonder the Ministry of Defence is known throughout the Government and the country as the Ministry of waste.


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As I said, present Ministers cannot take all the credit. The former Minister of State for Defence Procurement, the right hon. Member for Thanet, South (Mr. Aitken), has been promoted to the Cabinet as Chief Secretary to the Treasury. The man responsible for the highest overspend in any project is now second in command at the Treasury. It beggars belief.

I accept that the Royal Air Force had to reorganise after the cold war-- perhaps the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam does not, but most of us accept that there had to be some change. The reorganisation under "Options for Change" reduced the strength of the RAF from 90, 000 personnel--what it should have been--to 75,000 by this year. It meant that we lost 14 squadrons and our front-line jet combat strength was reduced by a third. Overall, the number of air bases in the United Kingdom and Germany was reduced by 23. Then, in July 1993, the Government panicked. They needed to save £750 million and they therefore cut another Tornado squadron. The defence costs study means that by the end of the decade, RAF personnel numbers will have dropped from about 90,000 to about 50,000--nearly a cut of 50 per cent.

Lady Olga Maitland: I thank the hon. Gentleman for finally giving way. Perhaps it is even more appropriate for him to give way now than it was earlier. We are hearing of the concern about so-called cuts; what I would call value for money. Will he explain a little how he equates his concern about the size of our armed forces with a statement made by his hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) to the Royal United Services Institute? I have a copy of the hon. Gentleman's speech, in which he said that he welcomed an opportunity to reduce defence spending. How does that equate with the hon. Gentleman's concern about the size of our armed forces?

Mr. Martlew: I do not think that my hon. Friend quoted a figure of 30 per cent., as has the Minister, who welcomed the opportunity. When I asked the hon. Lady in a recent debate whether she would increase spending in the armed forces, she said that she would only if there were growth in the economy. Despite that answer and the growth in the economy, she is going to vote for the defence estimates and for the slashing of the defence budget by £1.5 billion. Her arguments are not credible at all.

Numbers in the RAF have been cut by almost a half. Such decline is not easy to manage, and we accept that, but the crass way in which in the Government have done it is beyond belief. The repercussions of the decision to issue compulsory redundancy notices to service personnel who were on active service went way beyond the individuals concerned. Whenever I go to a base or an Army camp, I am reminded that the Government sent redundancy notices to people on active service in Northern Ireland and Bosnia.

The other drastic blow to morale, especially of the RAF, came when the Secretary of State--I am sorry that he is not in his place--demanded, in essence, the resignation of Sir Sandy Wilson, the second most senior officer in the Royal Air Force. That demand followed allegations of unauthorised spending on official residences. We in Parliament cannot tell whether that action was justified. A report was produced by KPMG Peat Marwick--it cost us £100,000 and we were only


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investigating an overspend of £380,000- -but the Government censored it; they would not make it public to Members of Parliament or anyone else. No official announcement was made.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) accused the Secretary of State of fleeing the capital on the day that the news came out. Not only did the Secretary of State flee the capital that day but the following week he fled the country and went to Poland. It was a disgrace that the character of one of our finest officers was besmirched in such a way without the Secretary of State coming to the Dispatch Box to explain why.

Mr. Hardy: Does my hon. Friend agree that the record was put a little straight, because, a few days after the Secretary of State had expressed no confidence in Air Chief Marshal Sir Sandy Wilson, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, in reply to a debate secured by his hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Clifton-Brown), paid a deserved and full tribute to Sir Sandy? The record needs to be further clarified, so I hope that my hon. Friend's questions will be answered in full.

Mr. Martlew: I attended that debate and I agree with my hon. Friend. It is a pity that the MOD seemed to keep on leaking to the press the information that the Secretary of State had no confidence in Sir Sandy--

Mr. Soames rose --

Mr. Martlew: In a minute.

Mr. Soames: On that point.

Mr. Martlew: I wish to finish this point.

Mr. Soames: We had a very serious--

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris): Order. The hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Martlew) is not giving way. The Minister should wait until the hon. Member gives way.

Mr. Martlew: I am sorry for that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. When the Minister replies to that point--he will have the chance to reply at the end of the debate--will he tell us who was the major budget holder for that official residence? Was it Sir Sandy? We understand that it was not. I do not wish to go into the matter any further because I understand that hon. Members of all parties will be touching on the issue.

There has been rapid change in the RAF. Morale is low, yet rapid change is to continue. The Minister announced that there will be compulsory redundancies, and we know that that will also affect morale. I must touch on one report, "Managing People in Tomorrow's Armed Forces", which was published in March, following discussions chaired by Mr. Michael Bett. The Bett report contained many good things. I used to be interested in personnel, so I read the report thoroughly and it contains ideas which would improve the efficiency and morale of the forces. However, one item is generating tremendous opposition, if not disbelief, in the forces--the proposal to introduce performance-related pay. That proposal is nonsense. It cuts across the ethos of our armed forces of teamwork, comradeship and sacrifice. That ethos has served our armed forces, and therefore our country, well over the centuries.


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How can we measure performance when it is a matter of life and death? Will our pilots be braver or better in combat if they think that they are going to receive a bonus? Do the Government really believe that, in this country at the present time, the love of money is greater than the love of country?

The chief constable of Hampshire recently highlighted the point, and his comments could apply to any of the uniformed forces, when he said:

"I joined the force out of a sense of public service . . . recognising the financial disadvantage. Had I wanted the principles of the market-place, I would not have made that decision . . . The notion that I will work harder or more effectively because of performance related pay is absurd and objectionable, if not insulting."

My advice to the Minister is to cherry-pick the Bett report. I am aware that the chairman of the report said that it should not be cherry-picked, but that was arrogance on his behalf. I would leave the particular cherry of performance-related pay to rot on the tree. Please do not try to run our armed forces like Barings bank. The Labour party is committed to the strong defence of the nation. Where this Government pursue a policy on strong defence, the Labour party will support them. However, when we do not support them, we will be constructively critical, as we have been today. I am sure that Conservatives will take the same line when there is a Labour Government in the not-too-distant future.

We do not wish to play politics with the defence of this nation or with our armed forces. It is in that spirit that we remember the sacrifices that were made 50 years ago. People in England and Wales today are taking the opportunity to vote. That option would have been denied them if we had lost the war and had lost to fascism. I hope that those who are eligible to vote will do so. Even those who do not take that opportunity have it because of the sacrifices made 50 years ago.

5.32 pm

Sir John Cope (Northavon): I want to make two points about the RAF-- a large point and a small point.

First, it is appropriate to support the tribute paid by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement to the RAF for its service during the second world war. My right hon. Friend said that 55 was an important age in that respect. I happen to be rather above that age. I was about eight when the war ended so I have no first-hand reminiscences of horror or fighting, but I remember sleeping in a shelter and the fact that the string on one's gas mask pulled into one's shoulder on the way to school. I recall the occasional thrill of seeing aircraft passing overhead with the three yellow bands which were on them at the time.

My right hon. Friend the Minister was right to pay a great tribute to the RAF for its part in the second world war and in a series of actions since. I was particularly pleased that the hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Martlew) mentioned Northern Ireland, of which I have particular experience and where the RAF has been extremely valuable. I strongly support the remarks that my right hon. Friend the Minister made at the end of his speech about the defence industrial base. He made a welcome statement and some very good points that back up what he and his colleagues have done recently in the Ministry of Defence.


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Strong defence industries are just as important to the defence of our country and our freedoms as strong armed forces. My constituency interest is in the airframes, aero-engines and missiles of British Aerospace and Rolls-Royce. I think of the defence industries mainly with regard to RAF procurement rather than that of the Army or Navy, although my point is not a single service one.

I do not mean simply that it is a good idea to have one's own reliable domestic suppliers in times of war. There are clearly times when that is of the greatest importance, and the incident with Belgian ammunition not so long ago reminded us that gratitude for past services cannot always be relied on. I served in a Territorial Army regiment that had collectively been awarded the Belgian Croix de Guerre during the liberation of Brussels, but I shall let that pass. It is important that our great companies flourish and many of our most important exporting companies are in defence and related areas, including those to which I have referred. They are profoundly affected by MOD procurement decisions. That is why I welcome Defence Ministers' renewed emphasis on industrial arguments when taking procurement decisions. In particular, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister of State on showing appreciation of the importance of the defence industrial base in the future large aircraft decision last December and his attitude to the FLA since, which he expressed again earlier. I also congratulate him on the support helicopter decision, which was taken more recently. It is very important that our industrial interests are taken into account for economic and employment reasons. Expressed crudely, if we cannot compete in the world marketplace with our industries and great companies, we will not be able to defend ourselves. Poor countries are bullied and lose wars. That is a very important aspect of this part of the debate.

Every important project is now international, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of State said. United Kingdom Government procurement is not enough to provide the basis for modern aircraft. That is why our defence industrial base depends on exports as well as on sales to the MOD.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of State referred to the Defence and Trade and Industry Select Committees, which are considering the issue at the moment. I welcome the involvement of the DTI as well as the MOD in defence procurement decisions. I hope that as a result of the Select Committee reports and of what flows from them we shall see increased and earlier involvement of the DTI in major defence procurement decisions.

I am sorry to see a reduction of the funding percentage for technology demonstrators. Like the Public Accounts Committee, I believe that technology demonstrators can save money. The Government should take that into account. They should also involve suppliers earlier and more deeply in procurement decisions so as to reduce costs, just as major companies are doing with their suppliers. The Japanese have taught us a lot about how to treat one's suppliers and how to get the best value for money by involving suppliers early. The MOD needs to apply those lessons, just as the great companies are applying them.

The defence industrial base is an important part of our economy and that, in itself, is vital for our freedom. I realise that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State knows all this and that he said it in his speech. In a sense,


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I am directing my comments not to him but to ensuring that everyone in the MOD and the armed forces appreciates the strong emphasis that my right hon. Friend and his colleagues have placed on their defence procurement decisions. After all, the 1939-45 war--especially in Europe but also in the far east--was a struggle that was measured not only by the undoubted bravery of the armed forces on all sides but by the industrial might of Germany on the one hand and the allies on the other. In a sense, that is part of the lesson of that war, as of many wars in the past.

I said that I wanted to make two points and the small one relates to the university air squadrons. My right hon. Friend the Minister paid tribute to both university air squadrons and, in the same sentence, to the Air Cadet Force which, I know, is also supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker). However, I make a clear distinction between the two.

The Air Cadet Force is extremely important and I agree with what was said about it but, as they are organised at present--I emphasise the latter two words--the university air squadrons, and especially their flying training arrangements, are a shocking waste of money. I realise that, in RAF terms, it is not a great deal of money. We have been talking about billions of pounds but the cost of the university air squadrons is not in that bracket. However, that is no excuse for waste.

My attention was drawn to the matter when Bristol university air squadron moved into Colerne airfield in my part of the country without warning my constituents, but that was because of an error. The airfield is in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wiltshire, North (Mr. Needham), our excellent Minister for Trade, but the airfield boundary is also the constituency boundary and the aircraft take off over some of my constituents and an important international school that is located there. The airfield was disused for many years and was supposed to be safeguarded for future use. The local authority did not know that, but that is a different matter. In fact, the issue will probably finish up in court, but I shall not dwell on that aspect.

Such events made me look carefully at the university air squadrons and their financing. They are said to have cost £11.9 million in 1993-94 and much the same in 1994-95. I doubt whether that includes the capital and other costs of keeping airfields such as Colerne open for their use. Colerne covers an enormous acreage with substantial buildings. It was previously disused and presumably could have been sold. I shall deal, however, only with the £11.9 million. The total establishment of the university air squadrons across the country is said to be 725 students, although a parliamentary answer last week stated that there were 801 students at present. Using the higher figure, the cost per student per year is about £15,000.

Mr. Bill Walker: As a former Treasury Minister, my right hon. Friend will understand that some of the costs charged to the university air squadrons cover the amortised cost of, for example, instructors. The instructors are carrying out Royal Air Force duties while instructing, and it is essential that they keep in current instructional flying practice. In other words, some of the costs would have to be transferred elsewhere.


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