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Mr. Atkins: Indeed, I cannot forbear to take note of the Central Council of Physical Recreation in view of my former incarnation. Both organisations expressed sensible views.

Mr. Morley: I am sure that the Minister will accept that many people who live and work in national parks support this form of wording, but will he get to the crux of the matter and confirm, for the benefit of the House, that the wording of the Bill gives national park authorities no new powers or rights and that the existing laws will remain? Despite all the talk about legal opinion and going to lawyers, there is no difference between what the wording of the Bill allows and what people may or may not do now.

Mr. Atkins: In essence, the hon. Gentleman is right, but we are concerned about the fact that there are potentially some people or organisations that would choose to go to law because they want to prevent those who live and work in the national parks doing certain things. I am sorry, but I am not prepared to accept that, and nor are my right hon. and hon. Friends. I emphasise again that there was originally consensus about what was attempted, but the concept was not capable of precise

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definition in a way that would have proved acceptable to some of the organisations that my colleagues and I mentioned.

We have had an interesting debate, but I do not think that we can logically proceed much further.

Mr. Ainger: Will the Minister accept that the wording of amendment No. 267 would prevent the zealots, or whatever one calls them, from asking the park authorities to prosecute individuals?

Mr. Atkins: There are some frightfully clever and very important people in another place, across the political divide, who are experts in constitutional law and who understand about land owning and its management, as well as living in and understanding the national parks. Their view was that this amendment, which the Opposition have taken over, did not adequately define what "quiet" meant. To return to my final point, the word "quiet" is not capable of a definition that is acceptable to people who live and work in the park and to some of the organisations that represent them. That is why, even at the last minute, I tabled this amendment, and I know that my right hon. and hon. Friends will support me.

Question put, That the amendment be made :--

The House divided Ayes 266, Noes 221.

Division No. 183] [9.24 pm

AYES

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Column 991

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan

Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)

Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

Amess, David

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Ashby, David

Atkins, Rt Hon Robert

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)

Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)

Baldry, Tony

Banks, Matthew (Southport)

Bates, Michael

Batiste, Spencer

Bellingham, Henry

Bendall, Vivian

Beresford, Sir Paul

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia

Bowis, John

Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes

Brandreth, Gyles

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Sir Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Browning, Mrs Angela

Budgen, Nicholas

Burt, Alistair

Butcher, John

Butler, Peter

Butterfill, John

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)

Carlisle, John (Luton North)

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Column 991

Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Cash, William

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chapman, Sydney

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coe, Sebastian

Colvin, Michael

Congdon, David

Conway, Derek

Cormack, Sir Patrick

Couchman, James

Cran, James

Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)

Davies, Quentin (Stamford)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Deva, Nirj Joseph

Devlin, Tim

Dicks, Terry

Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Duncan-Smith, Iain

Dunn, Bob

Dykes, Hugh

Eggar, Rt Hon Tim

Elletson, Harold

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Evennett, David

Faber, David

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Fishburn, Dudley

Forman, Nigel

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Column 992

Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

Freeman, Rt Hon Roger

French, Douglas

Gale, Roger

Gallie, Phil

Gardiner, Sir George

Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan

Garnier, Edward

Gillan, Cheryl

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs)

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

Hague, William

Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hampson, Dr Keith

Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy

Hannam, Sir John

Hargreaves, Andrew

Haselhurst, Sir Alan

Hawkins, Nick

Hawksley, Warren

Hayes, Jerry

Heald, Oliver

Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hendry, Charles

Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence

Hill, James (Southampton Test)

Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)

Horam, John

Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Howard, Rt Hon Michael

Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)

Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)

Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)

Hunter, Andrew

Jack, Michael

Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

Jenkin, Bernard

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Key, Robert

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

Knight, Greg (Derby N)

Knox, Sir David

Kynoch, George (Kincardine)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

Lang, Rt Hon Ian

Legg, Barry

Leigh, Edward

Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark

Lidington, David

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Lord, Michael

Luff, Peter

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

MacKay, Andrew

Maclean, Rt Hon David

McLoughlin, Patrick

McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick

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