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Sir Paul Beresford: I am old enough to remember the tensions between what is now a unitary authority and the previous Greater London council, so I appreciate the concerns. However, we are aware of the excellent work carried out by many county councils. Kent is an example of a county that has done a great deal in the way of air quality management.
The provisions in clause 85 will ensure that that role is preserved and strengthened. We expect that county councils will be fully involved in all aspects of local air quality management. We have already said that we shall consult the local authorities on the implementation of our air quality strategy. If there is any need to clarify that further, we shall be able to do so within the context of future direction and guidance.
With great respect, I am sure that the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr. Tipping) will agree that the amendments serve only to confuse the important roles of both tiers of local authorities. We do not feel that it is enough to say that the local authorities should act jointly and then leave it to them to sort matters out. The Government amendments have sought to give a clearer legal framework to the important contribution that both district and county councils will make.
Mr. Tipping: I am grateful to the Minister for that response. It acknowledges the strategic role of county councils and the fact that they have an important role to play. I note that guidance is to be issued and I hope that the voice of the county councils is heard during discussions on that guidance. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn .
Clause 86
Regulations for the purposes of Part IV
Amendment made: No. 196, in page 107, line 46, at end insert-- `(5A) Nothing in regulations under this Part shall authorise any person other than a constable in uniform to stop a vehicle on any road.'.-- [Mr. Atkins.]
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Clause 90
Interpretation of Part IV
Amendment made: No. 48, in page 109, line 38, at end insert-- `(2) Any reference in this Part to it appearing that any air quality standards or objectives are not likely within the relevant period to be achieved includes a reference to it appearing that those standards or objectives are likely within that period not to be achieved.'.-- [Mr. Atkins.]
Clause 92
Producer responsibility: general
Mr. William O'Brien (Normanton): I beg to move amendment No. 19, in page 115, line 44, after `unless', insert--
`(a) a document containing proposals for the regulations in the form of a draft of the regulations has been laid before Parliament for a period of sixty days during which the Secretary of State shall have regard to any representations made by any Committee of either House; and
(b) after those sixty days,'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 49 to 53.
Mr. O'Brien: This matter is relevant to the business before the House, because in Committee we were advised that the Department of the Environment had issued a consultation document about the responsibility of waste packaging, to which the packaging industry should respond. The Department made six suggestions in that document about how the industry could consider the control of waste and the way in which packaging could be recycled so that, collectively, we could reduce the amount of waste from food packaging and other consumer durables.
This is the last opportunity for the House to discuss the Bill's implications. Also, observations on the Government's consultation document are not due to be returned until the middle of August. Given both those facts, the industry's views could be submitted to the Secretary of State and he could make a decision about what he considers to be best for the industry without hon. Members, particularly those who served on the Committee, being able to consider the proposals. Yet under the legislation we are asked to consider the proposals. Against that background I, with the support of my colleagues, tabled the amendment.
When the Secretary of State receives the responses from the industry to the consultation document that he has issued--no one objects or criticises him for issuing it--and wants to introduce a scheme for recycling or for reducing waste, it is only right and proper that he should come to the House and advise and guide us on what he is proposing. We should have the opportunity to say yea or nay to his proposals.
My concern is heightened because the people in the business say that the Secretary of State's six proposals do not conform with what the industry wants to do to minimise waste. They have their own proposals, so we should have the opportunity to consider them. That is another reason why the Minister should accept my amendment, which would be a way of proving that we want to have the best arrangements for minimising waste and ensuring that the polluter pays.
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However, where there is a collective group, perhaps it would be better that the payment by the polluter should be made on a collective basis. Is the Minister aware of the views of the Food and Drink Federation? I am sure that he has been made aware of its proposal, which refers to shared producer responsibility for packaging waste. The federation says that collectively--Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We cannot have a wide debate on packaging, the Food and Drink Federation, Inkpen and all the other contributors to that discussion. We are debating the amendment, which is fairly clear and specific, and the hon. Gentleman should stick to that. He can make the other points on Third Reading if he wishes.
Mr. O'Brien: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am referring to the document containing the proposals in the amendment. It was produced by Valpak, which represents the collective response of the industry. I was referring to that document and to the response of the Food and Drink Federation. I was saying that the document entitled "Shared Producer Responsibility For Packaging Waste" is the document in the amendment. I am sure that the Minister is aware of the fact that the Valpak scheme is the alternative to the six proposals of the Department of the Environment.
The document to which I refer in the amendment is that suggested by the Food and Drink Federation and by the Pro Carton association. Those are the people who recommend the document that the amendment suggests.
I can accept Government amendments Nos. 49 to 53. We are talking about registration and I do not object to the Government's proposals for the registration of persons--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We need clarification here. The amendment refers to "a document". If a document is listed in an amendment, it must be a Government document unless specified otherwise. That is not specified in the amendment. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the document relates to something that the industry has produced, in which case the amendment is completely out of order? Clarification is important.
Mr. O'Brien: For clarification, I suggest again that the six proposals--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I ask the hon. Gentleman to clarify the position. The amendment refers to "a document". Is that some form of official Government document or is it a private sector document?
Mr. O'Brien: It is a Government document, Mr. Deputy Speaker, which will be produced by the Secretary of State. I suggest that the Secretary of State should bring the document to the House for us to consider after the period that he has set for the industry to consider his proposals in the consultation document. I suggest that the Secretary of State may bring forward a document that is totally different from the six proposals in his consultation document.
Mr. Atkins: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern. He is, however, getting a little bit concerned about something about which he does not need to be concerned. It would certainly be my intention and that of the Secretary of State to ensure that Members of
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Parliament were consulted on the matter. I agree with the spirit of the amendment, but it would restrict our flexibility in practice. I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts the assurance, by way of a brief intervention, that what he is asking for is something that we intend to do anyway. In the circumstances, he does not have cause for concern and he may feel able to withdraw his amendment.Mr. O'Brien: That is the clarification that I sought. I would accept Government amendments Nos. 49 to 53. In view of the Minister's assurances that no decision will be taken by the Department or the Secretary of State without the House being informed of that decision and that the draft will be put before the House, I am prepared to withdraw the amendment. The Minister agrees with the spirit of what I have suggested and I am prepared to accept his assurances.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have not yet proposed the Question that the amendment be made. Nevertheless, this has been a worthwhile debate. I call Mr. Clifton-Brown, although there is an administrative difficulty because the Question has not been proposed.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: Is it in order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for me to speak to Government amendments Nos. 49 and 53?
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I will therefore speak to those amendments. I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak to Government amendments Nos. 49 and 53 as they are plagiarised from my amendments in Committee, which were almost identical.
At that stage, I was speaking on behalf of Valpak, which is the industry's group representing no fewer than 50 companies. It was set up by the Secretary of State to look at the implementation of the EC directive on packaging waste and to see how the targets could be met. The group encouraged me to table various amendments in Committee, not least of which was an amendment to encourage people who were not part of registered exemption schemes to be registered nevertheless. It was quite an achievement, in that all sections of industry were united under the organisation and knew how they wished the Government to proceed.
I suspect that, for the sake of convenience, the Government wish to proceed to implementation of the directive by approaching one section of the packaging chain--the packer fillers--rather than the whole packaging chain. I emphasise that all sections of the chain are in agreement. In case my right hon. Friend the Minister should say that the industry is not united, I must point out that, in the retail sector, no less august companies than Marks and Spencer and Boots, which had previously not been on board, are now on board. While I welcome the amendments, I ask the Government to listen in future to what industry wants. The Bill imposes significant obligations on industry, and I ask the Government to consult on how they will implement clause 93.
10.30 pm
Mr. Atkins: I am extremely grateful for my hon. Friend's support, brief as it was. I assure him that we shall of course pay particular attention to what industry has to
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say. It is, after all, the major player, and no Government would be foolish enough to make decisions without having a pretty clear idea of what industry thought. My hon. Friend spoke on the issue in Committee and, I believe, on other occasions. I am grateful to him for taking the trouble to do so and for supporting the amendments.Clause 93
Producer responsibility: supplementary provisions
Amendments made: No. 49, in page 116, line 17, at end insert-- `(dd) the registration of persons who are subject to a producer responsibility obligation and who are not members of registered exemption schemes, the imposition of requirements in connection with such registration, the variation of such requirements, the making of applications for such registration, the period for which any such registration is to remain in force and the cancellation of any such registration;'.
No. 50, in page 116, line 28, after `any' insert `such'. No. 51, in page 116, line 33, leave out
`for registration received by it;'
and insert
`received by it for registration of exemption schemes;'. No. 52, in page 117, line 2, at end insert--
`(v) on the making of an application for, or for the renewal of, registration of a person required to register under the regulations;
(vi) in respect of the renewal of the registration of that person;'.
No. 53, in page 117, line 27, at end insert
`or persons required to register under the regulations;'.-- [Mr. Atkins.]
Clause 96
Hedgerows
Amendment proposed: No. 110, in page 120, line 29, at end insert--
`(2A) For the purpose of facilitating the protection of important hedgerows, regulations under subsection (1) above may also make provision in relation to other hedgerows in England or Wales. (2B) Without prejudice to the generality of subsections (1) to (2A) above, regulations under subsection (1) above may provide for the application (with or without modifications) of, or include provision comparable to, any provision contained in the planning Acts and may, in particular, make provision--
(a) prohibiting, or for prohibiting, the removal of, or the carrying out of prescribed acts in relation to, a hedgerow except in prescribed cases;
(b) for or with respect to appeals against determinations or decisions made, or notices given or served, under or by virtue of the regulations, including provision authorising or requiring any body or person to whom an appeal lies to consult prescribed persons with respect to the appeal in prescribed cases;
(c) for a person who contravenes, or fails to comply with, any prescribed provision of the regulations to be guilty of an offence; (d) for a person guilty of an offence by virtue of paragraph (c) above which consists of the removal, in contravention of the regulations, of a hedgerow of a description prescribed for the purposes of this paragraph to be liable--
(i) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine;
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(e) for a person guilty of any other offence by virtue of paragraph (c) above to be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding such level on the standard scale as may be prescribed. (2C) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different cases, including different provision in relation to different descriptions of hedgerow, different descriptions of person, different areas or localities or different circumstances.'.--[ Mr. Atkins. ]Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment (a) to the proposed amendment, leave out lines 2 to 4 and insert--
`(2A) Regulations under subsection (1) above may also make provision in relation to other hedgerows in England and Wales, but only to the extent necessary for the purpose of facilitating the protection of important hedgerows.'
Amendment (b) to the proposed amendment, in line 4, at end insert--
`( ) Regulations under subsection (1) above shall make provision for or with respect to appeals against determinations or decisions made, or notices given or served, under or by virtue of the regulations, and may include provision authorising or requiring any body or person to whom and appeal lies to consult prescribed persons with respect to the appeal in prescribed cases.' Amendment (c) to the proposed amendment, leave out lines 11 to 14.
Government amendments Nos. 111 to 115.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I am sorry to have to detain the House again. I have long been concerned with hedgerows and I should have preferred the issue to have been dealt with not by means of legislation. However, that battle is lost and the Government have introduced provisions in the Bill to deal with hedgerows.
The amendments would ensure that the provisions have as light a touch as possible. I should like the Government to specify clearly in their guidance what are considered important hedgerows. What is meant by important hedgerows is crucial. We do not want to specify every hedgerow; otherwise, landowners, farmers and others would have significant additional obligations placed on them.
In another place, Lord Ullswater said that an appeals mechanism would be introduced so that if someone who was notified about an important hedgerow disagreed with the designation, he could appeal against it. I should be grateful if my right hon. Friend could reassure me about the appeals mechanism to be included in the guidance.
Mr. Atkins: Amendments (a) to (c) would revise Government amendment No. 110 in two ways. Amendment (a) recasts subsection (2A). It would enable regulations to make provisions in relation to other hedgerows but only to the extent necessary for the purpose of facilitating the protection of important hedgerows. I hope I can reassure my hon. Friend. My amendment does not simply state that regulations may make provision about other hedgerows. If it did, I would understand and sympathise with my hon. Friend's sentiments. But my amendment goes further than that; it states in plain terms that the regulations may make such provision for the purpose of facilitating the protection of important hedgerows. I do not think that my hon. Friend's amendment adds anything to that, since the purpose of subsection (2A) is clearly expressed.
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Amendments (b) and (c) relate to appeals, to which my hon. Friend referred briefly in his conclusion.Mr. Morley: I do not want to delay the House by speaking on improvements in the way in which hedgerow legislation is evolving. I want to put it on record that we support the measures that the Minister is taking, but will the measures that he is moving apply to hedgerows in semi- urban and urban areas, which may be important?
Mr. Atkins: It is certainly not my intention to move into urban areas if I can possibly avoid it. There are grave concerns on both sides of the House about the implications of all that. Clearly, some exceptionally important hedgerows might have to be considered. In that sense, the hon. Gentleman may be reassured.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Clifton- Brown) referred to appeals. It was generally agreed in another place that rights of appeal should form an essential part of the scheme's arrangements. That is indeed our intention. We undertook to consider whether some provision on appeals should be included on the face of the Bill. Subsection (2B)(b) of amendment No. 110 does so in widely drawn terms, for the good reason that we cannot, at this stage, prejudge the terms of the scheme that emerges from consultation.
I can understand the purpose behind amendment (b), which states that provision for appeals has to be made
"against determinations or decisions made, or notices given or served, under . . . the regulations".
I am concerned, however, that its effect might be unfortunate. It might place a requirement on the Government to provide rights of appeal against all decisions and determinations. That would include a decision to allow a hedgerow to be removed, which is not what my hon. Friend intends.
We must wait until we are clear about how the arrangements will work in practice before we consider the means by which decision makers should be challenged. I do not think that there is much difference between my hon. Friend and me, and I hope that, in the circumstances, he will not press his amendments.
Amendment agreed to .
Amendments made: No. 111, in page 121, line 9, at end insert-- ` "hedgerow" includes any stretch of hedgerow;'.
No. 112, in page 121, line 14, at end insert--
` "the planning Acts" has the same meaning as it has in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 by virtue of section 336(1) of that Act;'.
No. 113, in page 121, line 15, leave out second `prescribed' and insert
`specified, or of a description specified,'.
No. 114, in page 121, line 16, at end insert--
` "remove", in relation to a hedgerow, means uproot or otherwise destroy, and cognate expressions shall be construed accordingly;'. No. 115, in page 121, line 18, at end insert--
`(6) Any reference in this section to removing, or carrying out an act in relation to, a hedgerow includes a reference to causing or permitting another to remove, or (as the case may be) carry out an act in relation to, a hedgerow.'.-- [Mr. Atkins.]
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Clause 107
Powers of enforcing authorities and persons authorised by them -- Amendments made: No. 54, in page 134, line 17, at end insert-- `(c) a local authority for the purposes of Part IV of this Act or regulations under that Part;'.
No. 205, in page 134, line 38, leave out `section 161' and insert `sections 161 to 161C'.
No. 55, in page 134, line 46, leave out `such authorities' and insert
`or transferred to, that authority'.
No. 56, in page 134, line 48, leave out second `Part'. No. 57, in page 134, line 49, leave out `or' and insert-- `(aa) by or under regulations made by virtue of Part IV of this Act; or'.-- [Mr. Atkins.]
Clause 112
Power of Secretary of State to delegate his functions of determining, or to refer matters involved in, appeals
Amendments made: No. 220, in page 137, line 45, after `42B(5)' insert `, 46B'.
No. 206, in page 138, line 7, after `96' insert `161B'.-- [Mr. Atkins.]
Clause 115
Application of this Act to the Isles of Scilly--
Amendments made: No. 197, in page 139, line 8, leave out `section 76' and insert
`sections 76, 79 and 88'.
No. 198, in page 139, line 9, after `section' insert `or section 88 above'.
No. 199, in page 139, line 16, after `functions' insert
`(other than functions under or by virtue of Part III or IV of this Act)'.
No. 200, in page 139, line 20, after `III' insert `or IV'.-- [Mr. Atkins.]
Clause 118
Minor and consequential amendments, transitional and transitory provisions, savings and repeals--
Amendment made: No. 58, in page 142, line 43, leave out `not mentioned in that Schedule but'.-- [Mr. Atkins.]
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