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councillors are represented on the board. They come from different areas but they have parish representation, and that is worth while. As the House has heard, many parish councillors share other positions and represent authorities with wider representation and greater responsibilities than those of the parish. The hon. Member for West Derbyshire spoke about some 103 parishes in his area. In such a case, only limited bits of the Peak district are represented by any parish, and there is the problem of the interlinked wider considerations. We need experienced people from parish areas who can be drawn into much wider forms of representation.

In my constituency, areas such as Dronfield attract people precisely because they are on the edge of the Peak park, and people look to the park for recreation. It is entirely unfair to say that there should not be representation from authorities that represent people in such areas. Unfortunately, under the Bill, authorities such as North East Derbyshire district council, which might be able to qualify for representation on the board, will be placed in considerable financial difficulty.

Authorities will be precepted to take up a position. The situation might be so serious that, even when they become entitled to one place, they have to seek to instigate other provisions in the Bill to withdraw from that entitlement because they cannot afford the precepting. They will get a standard spending assessment grant of about £4,000 and, under the Bill, will be liable to be precepted by about £130,000. That is an inequitable arrangement and is a consequence of the Bill. It needs to be considered in terms of the granting of standard spending assessments, which are undoubtedly separate from the Bill but are very much part of the general framework.

Mr. Atkins: We have had an interesting debate. If I may say so yet again, it has been summed up by the fact that my right hon. and hon. Friends have spoken for people who live and work in the parishes in the national parks.

I do not take kindly to the hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) talking almost disparagingly about parish councils. He is on record as saying in Committee to my hon. Friends the Members for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) and for Wyre (Mr. Mans) that he did not think that parish councils were truly democratic representatives. I can quote the necessary column in Hansard if the hon. Gentleman wishes me to do so, but I do not wish to delay proceedings unnecessarily.

Mr. Morley: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Atkins: I shall not give way at this point. I shall continue to make the point as strongly as I can that we believe that parish councils should be better represented on parks committees. It is necessary to give them more representation. Of course, I understand why some of the county and district councillors do not like it: it is because we are giving more attention to people who live and work in the national parks, and that is what my right hon. and hon. Friends want.

Mr. Morley: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Atkins: No.

I am sympathetic to the comments of hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) on direct elections. His hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) will doubtless

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have told him that we are sympathetic to that proposal. There are problems--he glossed over them. Some parishes are not, for example, wholly in a national park area and therefore there are difficulties about electoral rolls, but I have not ruled it out. One would want to try, if possible, to encourage that. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Mr. McLoughlin) agrees with it. The proposal is, however, more difficult than I can allow at this point, so the compromise is that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State would have the ultimate discretion; but, as I said in my opening remarks, I do not anticipate that he would exercise that discretion. It is merely a residual power. That is probably the only difference between us.

Several hon. Members rose --

Mr. Atkins: I do not want to give way. If hon. Members will allow, we have had a good debate, we had a great debate about this subject in Committee and I do not need to persuade the House any more that my amendment is the right one.

Mr. Matthew Taylor: I hoped to be allowed by the Minister to intervene briefly because I raised the issue in Committee and he has not explained one simple point. Why does he prefer a request that parish councils and the national park come together to make a selection rather than a requirement in the Bill, which is the purpose of the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler)? Given that the Minister seems to believe that that is the appropriate mechanism, I cannot understand why he does not want to say so. I hope that he will respond to that point.

Mr. Atkins: We said in Committee that we were keen that the collective county associations of parish councils would choose, from their number, representatives to serve on the national park representing such councils. In those circumstances, the only difference between us is the point about whether there should be the Secretary of State's discretion.

Mr. Taylor rose --

Mr. Atkins: I shall give way, but I do not want to prolong this debate. We want to get on.

Mr. Taylor: That is not the issue between us, because I am willing to accept, if necessary, that the Secretary of State should be left with the discretion. I am not clear as to why it should not be a requirement that the parish councils representing the national park areas come together rather than merely a recommendation in the Minister's regulations.

Mr. Atkins: It is simply that that is what exists now. I did not want to be too prescriptive or over-bureaucratic. At the moment, all the county associations meet and this is just another part of that process. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not press me too far on this matter. I take the point that is being made by the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall. I want to give more power to the parish councils, but I cannot go as far as the hon. Gentleman wishes me to go.

Mr. Morley: I am anxious to set the record straight. I made no disparaging remarks about parish councils. The difference is that the Opposition want to ensure that the

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views of all those who live in and use national parks are made known. Given the state of the Government, any of my parish councils could do a far better job than them.

Mr. Atkins: That was a completely useless intervention. My hon. Friends who were members of the Committee will recall that the hon. Gentleman made disparaging remarks about parish councils. He said that they were not truly democratic representations of local people. He was quite wrong. The message that will go to all parish councils is that the Labour party does not think that they are truly democratic. That is on the record.

Question put, That the amendment be made:--

The House divided: Ayes 164, Noes 56.

Division No. 184] [11.25 pm

AYES

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Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan

Allason, Rupert (Torbay)

Amess, David

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Atkins, Rt Hon Robert

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)

Baldry, Tony

Bates, Michael

Batiste, Spencer

Beresford, Sir Paul

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bowis, John

Brandreth, Gyles

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Browning, Mrs Angela

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butcher, John

Butler, Peter

Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Cash, William

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coe, Sebastian

Congdon, David

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)

Cran, James

Davies, Quentin (Stamford)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Deva, Nirj Joseph

Devlin, Tim

Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Duncan, Alan

Duncan-Smith, Iain

Dunn, Bob

Dykes, Hugh

Elletson, Harold

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

Faber, David

Fishburn, Dudley

Forman, Nigel

Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

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Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Freeman, Rt Hon Roger

French, Douglas

Gallie, Phil

Garnier, Edward

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

Hague, William

Hannam, Sir John

Harris, David

Hawkins, Nick

Heald, Oliver

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hendry, Charles

Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)

Horam, John

Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)

Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)

Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)

Jack, Michael

Jackson, Robert (Wantage)

Jenkin, Bernard

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)

Knight, Greg (Derby N)

Kynoch, George (Kincardine)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

Legg, Barry

Leigh, Edward

Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

Lidington, David

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

Lord, Michael

Luff, Peter

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

MacKay, Andrew

Maclean, Rt Hon David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Maitland, Lady Olga

Mans, Keith

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Merchant, Piers

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Moate, Sir Roger

Monro, Sir Hector

Nelson, Anthony

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