House of Commons Hansard Debates for 28 Jun 1995

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Mr. Mallon: I thank the Minister for giving way. Lest we do not arrive at the opportunity, will the Minister confirm that, under the 1695 Act, those councils that operate leisure facilities on Sundays are, in the words of the clerk of Craigavon council, "breaking the law"? If that is so, can he give us an assurance that he will totally remove that legislation from the statute book?

Mr. Moss: The 1695 Act covers a number of different Departments in the Northern Ireland Office, and I could not instigate any policy from my Department to change the whole Act, so I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that we will repeal the entire Act. I am, however, in consultation with the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), to seek a way forward with his Department of Education, to find out how we can amend the Act so that sports that take place on Sundays can do so legally.

I have sought proper legal advice on whether leisure centres are breaking the law by opening on a Sunday, and I am advised that they could technically be in breach of the 1695 Act. I am also told that the chances of a successful prosecution, particularly under sections 1 or 3 of the Act, are considered remote.

Mr. Trimble: As the Minister has introduced the subject of the legal advice that he has received, would he be so good as to make that advice available to others, especially to councils that are anxious to remain within the law? As the Minister must appreciate, there is either a breach of the law or there is not. It is meaningless to say that there is a technical breach of the law. It is important, therefore, that all councils should be given the benefit of the advice that the Minister has received. Speaking for Craigavon council, I am sure that it does not wish to do anything unlawful.

Mr. Moss: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, and I agree that the councils are perhaps in an invidious position, in not knowing where they stand in relation to the law. I am sure that their legal opinion would be the same as that given to me--there is a very remote chance of any prosecution as a result of the 1695 Act. I will agree, however, to forward that legal advice to all councils, not just Craigavon.

Whatever views anyone holds on the question of Sunday observance, I believe that we must recognise that times change. People's attitudes today on any number of issues are not the same as they were 30 or 40 years ago. If that were not the case, we would still be labouring under the 300-year-old Act as regards Sunday activities, which has recently been reported in the press. I am referring, of course, to the Sunday Observance Act (Ireland) 1695. To emphasise the point, perhaps I should quote a few of its provisions.

One passage states:

"no person or persons whatsoever shall publickly cry, shew forth, or expose to sale any wares, merchandizes, fruit, herbs, goods or chattels whatsoever upon the Lord's-day . . . upon pain that every person so offending shall forfeit the same goods so cried, or shewed forth".

We recognise that the language of that Act is out of date and, if I am to proceed from the two consultation documents into legislation, we will have to take on board carefully the requirements of necessary amendments to that Act. I give that undertaking to the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh.

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2.28 pm

Sitting suspended .

2.30 pm

On resuming--

It being half past Two o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, pursuant to Order[19 December].

PRIVATE BUSINESS

Sheffield Assay Office Bill

Lords amendments agreed to.

Bell's Bridge Order Confirmation Bill

Considered; to be read the Third time.

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ROYAL ASSENT

Madam Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts and a Measure:

Commonwealth Development Corporation Act 1995

Home Energy Conservation Act 1995

Proceeds of Crime Act 1995

Carers (Recognition and Services) Act 1995

Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995

Land Registers (Scotland) Act 1995

Activity Centres (Young Persons' Safety) Act 1995

Prisoners (Return to Custody) Act 1995

Health Authorities Act 1995

Jobseekers Act 1995

Malvern Hills Act 1995

Team and Group Ministries Measure 1995

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European Summit (Cannes)

3.31 pm

The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major): With permission, Madam Speaker, I shall make a statement on the meeting of the European Council in Cannes, which I attended with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my hon. Friend the Minister of State responsible for Europe, the hon. Member for Boothferry (Mr. Davis).

The Council rightly gave priority to the need to promote growth and employment. It called for flexible job markets and rigorous budgetary policies to keep inflation and deficits down. These are the policies that we have been advocating for years.

We need to create a Europe of enterprise. Seventy per cent. of the jobs in the European Union are in small companies, and I welcome the Council's focus on the need to free these businesses from red tape. We have promoted work in Europe on deregulation designed to stimulate employment and innovation, and the Council has now called for specific proposals from the Commission this year.

At the summit, the Heads of Government discussed a single currency. As I have made clear to the House, I believe that a single currency carries significant economic, political and constitutional implications. That is why at Maastricht I fought for our right to keep the pound.

At the summit, other Heads of Government showed a growing awareness of the difficulties of the plan for economic and monetary union. It was agreed that there can be no question of any member states moving to stage 3 in 1997. I am equally clear that there is not the remotest prospect of all 15 states meeting the convergence criteria by 1999, although it is probable that a small number will do so.

At this Council, for the first time, it was acknowledged that a move to a single currency by some member states and not others would have serious practical and economic consequences for the future operations of the Union. Finance Ministers have now been asked to look at this problem and report further.

A number of questions need to be addressed. What would a move to a single currency mean for those who did not participate? Would those bound into monetary union benefit, or would those remaining outside the union gain advantage? What are the implications for the single market? What would be the impact on resource transfers?

Many questions arise as we approach stage 3. I have long believed that it is vitally necessary to examine these problems in detail, and it should lead to a much more realistic and informed debate. Any decision to move to a single currency will be the most far-reaching structural change for the whole European Union--vital, of course, for those that participate in it, but it will be equally vital for those who choose not to participate in it. At the very least, it will change the union profoundly, perhaps in ways that are unexpected.

I believe that it is essential for this country to participate fully in that debate. Here, above all, we must make our practical views count and stand up for our

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interests in Europe, yet our ability to influence the debate on a single currency now, when it matters, would be destroyed if we exercised our opt-out now. We would forfeit our influence over the most crucial current issue affecting Europe's future. That would not be in our interests. We should seek to influence the debate before we finally decide our position.

Agreement was reached on Europol and the customs information system, which will reinforce the fight against cross-border crime and drug trafficking. Agreement on Europol had been held up because some member states insisted that the European Court of Justice must have jurisdiction. I would not agree to give the European Court a role in such a sensitive area involving our police and criminal intelligence activities. After a prolonged debate, the question of possible European Court of Justice involvement in the dispute settlement procedure for Europol was set to one side, while, in the meantime, the convention was agreed.

The European Council will examine the dispute settlement procedure again in June 1996, but I have made it emphatically clear that I do not anticipate that the United Kingdom will take a different position then. As a result, the European Court of Justice will not be the arbiter in any case relating to Europol which involves the United Kingdom Government or arises in the courts of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom has also led the fight to combat fraud in the Community. The last European Council at Essen agreed the plan of action that we proposed. The Cannes Council confirmed agreement on a regulation and convention providing tools for the task, and at Madrid in December, we shall review the action that member states are taking to crack down on fraud.

The European Council took stock of the earlier preparations for next year's intergovernmental conference. It agreed that the preparatory study group should consider how the European Union could better respond to its citizens' expectations. At the heart of this, of course, is the need for effective and rigorous application of subsidiarity.

In 1990, the Commission proposed 185 pieces of primary legislation. In the first half of this year, it has proposed not 185 but 11. At Cannes, the Commission was instructed to complete its two-year review of subsidiarity applied to existing legislation in time for consideration at Madrid this December.

The prospect of further enlargement was highlighted by the meeting yesterday between the 15 members of the European Union and the Heads of Government of 11 prospective member states. These 11 will benefit from the programmes agreed for help to central and eastern Europe and the Mediterranean.

The Council decided that the next European development fund would provide 13.3 billion ecu, or about £11 billion, to the African, Caribbean and Pacific countries. The United Kingdom also provides high-quality bilateral aid to many of these countries. I intend to ensure that multilateral contributions do not swallow up our bilateral aid.

Our contribution to the eighth EDF--worth 1.63 billion ecu, or about £1.35 billion, over five years from the year 2000--will be very substantial, but we are taking a smaller share than under the seventh European

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development fund and, as a result, placing less pressure on our direct bilateral programme to countries with whom we have a long relationship.

On the former Yugoslavia, the new European Union mediator, Mr. Bildt, reported on his first visit to the region. We asked him to concentrate urgently on ways to reopen talks with all the parties on the basis of the contact group plan, and to continue efforts to secure recognition of Bosnia by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. During the Council, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I met the Irish Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister for bilateral talks. We commissioned a joint report on how the paramilitaries could decommission weapons and explosives. The Taoiseach and I will discuss this report in due course.

We can take considerable satisfaction in this summit. On economic issues, in the fight against cross-border crime, on Community fraud, in the emphasis on enlargement, in the sensible balance reached in the allocation of external funds, and in the support given to Mr. Bildt's diplomatic efforts over Bosnia, the Council has followed courses which the United Kingdom advocated. On other areas of vital national interest, we have influenced the debate while retaining our own rights of decision.

I would not pretend that these results were invariably easy to achieve. But, as this Council again showed, the debate within Europe has evolved significantly in our direction over recent years. I am confident that we can carry this evolution a great deal further by robust advocacy, by patient negotiations, and by standing by our belief in a commonsense Europe.

I have made it clear that I believe that the way forward for Europe is as a Europe of nation states built upon co-operation. Key decisions affecting this nation must be taken here in this House. My guiding principle is to do what I believe is in our national interest--to argue for Britain's interests in Europe, and to build a Europe which carries the trust of the British people. That I will continue to do.

I should like to add one further point. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has devoted 43 years to unbroken public service-- [Hon. Members:-- "Hear, hear."]--as a diplomat, a politician and a Minister. This was the 16th European Council that he has attended as Foreign Secretary. His huge contribution to foreign policy co-ordination among European Governments was recognised at the summit in a moving tribute by his colleagues. His contribution to our relations outside Europe has been equally important.

At this summit, as throughout the past five and a half years, his deep knowledge and calm authority have earned great credit for this country. My right hon. Friend has justly earned respect on both sides of the House, and I believe that this country owes him her thanks.

Mr. Tony Blair (Sedgefield): I thank the Prime Minister for his statement. I am delighted to join in the tribute to his right hon. Friend. Whatever our political differences, I believe that he has always represented this country with honour and ability. That will be respected on both sides of the House.

I obviously agree entirely with what the Prime Minister said about Northern Ireland. I shall deal with some of the main issues that he raised in relation to the summit.

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On Bosnia, we welcome the support that was given to the rapid reaction force. The communique said that the task was to help UNPROFOR both act and react. Will the Prime Minister amplify what that means? Is the force there for protection primarily, or will it be used in a more active way--for example, in preventing the bombardment of the safe areas?

While we welcome again the renewed commitment to Sarajevo, which was shelled again this morning, can we have the assurance repeated that no deals were done with the Bosnians in exchange for the release of hostages, and that we continue to reserve every means at our disposal to enforce the United Nations mandate?

On enlargement of the European Union to the countries of central and eastern Europe, there will be support for the broad principles that were outlined. We welcome the participation of the 11 potential future members of the European Union in the summit. Is not one of the main barriers to enlargement the common agricultural policy? Is it not time for a far more fundamental reform of the CAP, which has become an unreasonable burden on European consumers?

While we agree with the aim expressed in the presidency conclusions, which call for a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty by the end of 1996, can the Prime Minister explain how, for example, the French decision to resume nuclear testing is consistent with that aim? We support the strong statement that was made on tackling racism across Europe, and on crime and fraud. On jobs, we welcome the clear emphasis on measures to help the long- term unemployed. But how can the Prime Minister agree with his European partners that more needs to be done, when his Government and Cabinet are initiating a massive 30 per cent. cut in spending on the long-term unemployed and their programmes? Is not that a serious-- [Hon. Members:- - "Where will the money come from?"] Conservative Members ask where the money will come from. We have heard the former Secretary of State for Wales's opinion. He says that there is £5 billion-worth of waste just waiting to be gathered up. We could have a programme for the long-term unemployed, finance the royal yacht and have enough left over for a new prime ministerial spaceship to help him in his bilaterals with the planet Portillo.

On monetary union, how can the Prime Minister reconcile his position today with what has been said recently? The President of the Board of Trade has said that a single market needs a single currency; the Chief Secretary to the Treasury says that he does not want a single currency, period; the Chancellor of the Exchequer says that it is not a threat to the nation state; the Employment Secretary says that it is. Does the Prime Minister know that, this morning, the President of the Board of Trade has said that a referendum is inconsistent with parliamentary sovereignty, although the Foreign Secretary days earlier said that there was a case for one? The Prime Minister, who once said that he supported the principle of a single currency and was opposed to referendums, now says that he wants to keep his options open on both. Is it not the case that there are now at least nine different positions on record stated by members of the Cabinet, and that the Prime Minister is responsible for three of them? I notice that the Employment Secretary and the President of the Board of Trade are not here-- they are probably putting in the telephone lines.

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If the divisions are so deep and irreconcilable that the Conservatives cannot govern themselves, why on earth should they be trusted to govern the country? Did not the Foreign Secretary get it right in Cannes during the summit, when he said that those divisions were damaging Britain?

Does the Prime Minister--who at least is behaving with some semblance of honour and integrity throughout this--know what was happening while he was trying to represent Britain abroad? The friends of the Employment Secretary and the friends of the President of the Board of Trade were twisting the knife, striking deals and briefing the papers in a way that would have made Mr. Francis Urquhart blush. That is what happened while the Prime Minister was in Cannes.

Has not the last week exposed the real Conservative party, in all its deceit and squalor? It is an ungovernable party that is unfit to govern, and the sooner that this country is rid of the

Conservatives--all of them--the better for Britain.

The Prime Minister: That was all very entertaining--all that "twisting the knife" stuff. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that I am remarkably unbloodied, and I will stay that way. As far as the European summit was concerned, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that that was not on the agenda and was not discussed.

Let me deal with the earlier points the right hon. Gentleman made, when he touched loosely on the statement that I made. The right hon. Gentleman graciously supported my remarks about my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, and I am grateful to him for that. I am also grateful for his continued support for our proposals in Northern Ireland.

As far as Bosnia is concerned, I can first give the right hon. Gentleman a complete assurance that no deals will be done with the Bosnian Serbs, and that assurance stands now and for the future. As for helping UNPROFOR to act and to react, the intention is to give greater protection, and to give UN commanders more choice and options as to what action they may deem necessary in the interests of the safety of their men who are on duty there in the service of the UN. On the subject of enlargement, it was encouraging to see the 11 potential new members at the summit. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the need for further movement on the common agricultural policy; indeed, I have been saying just that for some years.

It is clear that, as the European Union enlarges, the CAP in its present form will be unsustainable, for cost and other reasons, and will necessarily need to be significantly re-examined and reformed as part of the enlargement process. We have been advocating that for some time. There is no doubt about the need for further reform, and I assure the right hon. Gentleman that that has long been our view. On the point about a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty, the French President can best speak for himself. However, he told the summit that he proposed to end his series of tests in, I think, May of next year, so that he would be in a position to sign the test ban treaty later in the year, together with the other potential signatories.

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In answer to the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about employment and jobs, we have done a great deal more than many other country, which is why our unemployment has fallen by 600,000 from its peak--a better record than any of our European partners. It is why, I think perhaps with the solitary exception of Holland, we have the lowest unemployment rate anywhere in the European Union.

The right hon. Gentleman referred to expenditure on creating jobs. A significant part of creating jobs is not just expenditure, but removing from employers costs that inhibit them from taking on workers because it is no longer cost-effective to do so. That is the position that we have taken for a number of years--and it is significantly because of that that unemployment has fallen so much. That position is now accepted by our European Union partners, and was fully agreed to during our discussions.

The right hon. Gentleman referred at some length to economic and monetary union, and what he described as differences and confusion. I hope that he can clear up some of his confusion. The deputy Labour leader, who sits beside the right hon. Gentleman, said, "Yes, we are against a single currency." The right hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) has said, "Personally, I am in favour of a single currency."

Labour MEPs have voted in favour of a single currency, and within the time limits and timetables that have been set. The hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) has said in the past that setting such timetables would be irresponsible. Last week, Labour's spokesman on monetary affairs in Europe wrote:

"A single currency is crucial to consolidating the single European market . . . Britain can no longer forge an independent monetary policy."

I do not know whether the right hon. Member for Sedgefield agrees with that, or whether it is the latest illustration of one of his MEPs being infantile.

Mr. David Howell (Guildford): On the matter of a single currency, will my right hon. Friend confirm that, whereas previously it was argued that countries that stayed outside the single currency zone would somehow be weakened, disadvantaged and marginalised, it is now being argued that those countries that stay outside will be too competitive and too strong and will have an unfair advantage, and that barriers must be raised against them? Will my right hon. Friend also confirm that he utterly rejects that ridiculous argument, and that any attempt to divide Europe by raising barriers against non-participating countries would be highly divisive, and indeed illegal?

The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the changing nature of the debate. No specific proposals have yet been made by those most likely to go into a single currency about what inhibitions they might wish to place on those who remain outside to ensure that they do not gain a competitive advantage. We can be clear about the direction in which the debate is moving--and, as my right hon. Friend said, that is unlikely to be acceptable to many countries that do not enter a single currency.

Mr. Paddy Ashdown (Yeovil): The Prime Minister was right to say that his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary enjoys a wide circle of respect, on both sides of the House and way beyond it. His retirement marks the end of a long and distinguished career in the service of this House and this country.

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The Prime Minister's statement shows that he did the best job he could to represent Britain's interests as he saw them, given the impossible position in which his own party has put him. Is it not absolutely clear that a Government who are so divided on Europe cannot represent Britain's best interests in Europe? Is it not also absolutely clear that the Prime Minister must come off the fence on the issues of a single currency, political co-operation and the granting of a referendum, to give the people of this country a chance to have their say? So long as he ducks that, he or any of his successors will be a lame duck Prime Minister presiding over a broken-backed Government, incapable of representing this country in Europe or anywhere else.

The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his generous remarks about my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, which are well deserved and will be echoed in many quarters. On representing this country in Europe, as I told the House just a few moments ago, the conclusions reached at the European summit by all the participants were conclusions which, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, I have been advocating from this Dispatch Box for the past five years. So the suggestion that we are unable to represent Britain's interest in Europe is utterly rejected, not just by me but by those Heads of Government in Europe who now take the position that we have advocated for a very long time.

What they would not have accepted, of course, is the proposition that is so often advanced by the right hon. Gentleman. Were he to go to Europe, he would find himself taking part in the debate on the basis of what most people in Europe thought in 1992 rather than what they think today in 1995.

Dame Jill Knight (Birmingham, Edgbaston): May I suggest to my right hon. Friend that many people outside this House will commend his firm stand, leading to a universal acceptance by Ministers from the European Community that Britain could not, would not, shall not and cannot ever give over the jurisdiction of our courts to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg? [Interruption.] May I suggest that many people outside care very much about the right to make decisions in our own courts?

The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend says, I think that there are some areas in which it would not be acceptable to the House for rulings to be made outside the United Kingdom by the European Court of Justice. It was precisely for that reason that I declined to accept European Court of Justice rulings in the very sensitive intelligence area that will be covered by Europol.

There are some areas in which, in the interests of dispute management and dispute settlement, the European Court of Justice has had a long involvement in our affairs for the past 25 years or so. As my hon. Friend says, there are some areas that would not be acceptable to the House. This weekend, we touched on one of those areas, and I made our position clear.

Sir Peter Hordern (Horsham): Was there not a proposal that a council of wise men be formed to consider the consequences of those countries that had not signed up to a single currency? Was there not also a proposal to extend the powers of the European court? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that those countries that may decide

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to form a single currency knew very well what they were doing when they signed the Maastricht treaty, and that there can be no consequences for the single market proposals as a result of any arrangement that they may come to?

The Prime Minister: They were certainly aware of what they were about when they committed themselves--I think, unwisely--to firmly entering on a particular timetable. It would be unacceptable to many people in the European Union if they were now to see an impact on the single market, which was separately agreed, as a result of the decisions they took in the Maastricht treaty on a single currency. I agree with my right hon. Friend about that. A large number of member states across the European Union will do so as well.

There was, at one stage in the summit, a suggestion that some wise men should gather together--a small number of wise men--

[Interruption.] --nominated by Heads of Government, to consider the implications of a single currency on those nations that did not join. The debate advanced, and it was suggested that a wise man be appointed. I was not in favour of that, and the idea did not proceed. It was decided that we would return the matter to the wise men who sit regularly on the ECOFIN Council.

Mr. Peter Shore (Bethnal Green and Stepney): On a single currency, the communique makes it clear that the leaders of the European Council express their firm resolve to get through the transition period towards a single currency by 1 January 1999 at the latest. They further went on to say that there must be strict observance of the convergence criteria in the Maastricht treaty.

Given the fact that one of those criteria is that members should also be members of the exchange rate mechanism for a period of two years before the decision is made, and within a 2.5 per cent. band of parity, is it not clear that the Prime Minister will have to make that decision, if he is going to keep his options open, by 1 January 1997? Is it not time that he started thinking about what debate should take place in the House in preparation for that decision?

The Prime Minister: I have already said to the House on occasions in the past that I do not anticipate the United Kingdom rejoining the exchange rate mechanism in this Parliament, and I reiterate that point for the right hon. Gentleman.

The convergence criteria are, of course, important criteria, which were actually put in the Maastricht treaty at the request of the United Kingdom, because they are sensible economic guidelines. Quite apart from the fact that they are likely to lead to a convergence of inflation and growth performance, they are sensible economic guidelines on their own.

What the right hon. Gentleman left out of his question when he referred to 1 January 1999 and the communique was that it actually refers to that date and also refers to the protocol--our protocol, the United Kingdom protocol, which gives us an option not to join. As for joining the exchange rate mechanism at 2.5 per cent. bands, there are, of course, no 2.5 per cent. narrow bands at the moment in the exchange rate mechanism for any nation in Europe. There are much wider bands at the moment, and nobody is talking about narrowing the bands. That is one of the reasons, but by no means the only reason, why I have expressed some doubt on a

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number of occasions about whether that date, 1 January 1999, is a date that will be met. I should say that the date is there, but the date is always subject to the convergence criteria.

There is no possibility whatsoever that very large numbers of the European Union members will meet those convergence criteria. Some members, a minority of member states, will do so, but by no means all of them. Then the European Union will have to face the fundamental decision of what is the impact on the Union as a whole, its operation and effectiveness in the future--the whole flavour of the Union--if a small group of countries go ahead and create a dividing line between those within a single currency and those beyond. We have been arguing for further detailed discussions in order to examine that, and they were finally agreed to at the summit.

Mr. Thomas McAvoy (Glasgow, Rutherglen): The Prime Minister claims that he wishes that Britain were at the heart of Europe. Is he aware that the President of the European Parliament has stated that affairs in Europe were in paralysis at Cannes, because of the state of the Tory party in Great Britain? Is he not ashamed that his machinations and the machinations of his party have damaged our country's interests?

The Prime Minister: No, I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is entirely right. There was a time some 10 or 12 years ago when many people felt that the development of the European Union was in what was then known as Euro-sclerosis. I do not accept that quote from the President of the European Parliament, nor have I seen it. Even if he did say that, I do not agree with it, and it is wrong.

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