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House of Commons
Friday 30 June 1995
The House met at half-past Nine o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Local Government
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[ Mr. Chapman. ]
9.35 am
Mr. Nick Hawkins (Blackpool, South): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. As the debate is about the conduct of local government, and as there have been so many well-publicised problems and cases of incompetence and maladministration in local government in Opposition-controlled seats such as those in Birmingham and Islington, is it in order that it should take place without Opposition Members being present?
Madam Speaker: Those are matters that must be raised during the debate.
Mr. James Clappison (Hertsmere): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Has the Chair any power to flush out Opposition Members so that we can hear from them? The Opposition Benches are virtually empty.
Madam Speaker: Order. Let us see how the debate develops.
Mr. Clappison: Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: No, there are no further points of order. The debate is about local government. It is not for the Chair to determine which hon. Members should be here. The debate must continue in the usual way.
Mr. Clappison rose --
Madam Speaker: Will the hon. Gentleman resume his seat until I have finished? If he has a real point of order with which I can deal, I shall hear it.
Mr. Clappison: I spy strangers.
Madam Speaker: I am not willing to accept that motion at this stage. A leading member of the Government is here, ready to start the debate.
Mr. Clappison rose --
Madam Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Bearing in mind the fact that this is a
well-publicised debate--indeed, it has been subject to a number of criticisms--I should have expected the Opposition Benches to be fuller. Can you ensure, Madam Speaker, that the annunciators are working? That
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is important because, if they are not, some hon. Members might not be aware that the House sits at 9.30 am on Fridays.Madam Speaker: I always check before I come into the Chamber that the annunciators are operating. Points of order are now over. 9.37 am
The Minister Without Portfolio (Mr. Jeremy Hanley): I welcome the opportunity to have this debate because it is a debate on the conduct of local government in Great Britain, which is an extremely important subject. It is one on which I and my right hon. and hon. Friends have focused our attentions over the past few months, especially during last month's local elections. We highlighted the extra cost in council tax of living under a Labour or Liberal Democrat-controlled council.
Mr. Patrick Thompson (Norwich, North): Does my right hon. Friend recall that, only a matter of a few days ago, the Government made sure that Labour-controlled Norwich city council did not impose excessive council tax increases on the people of Norwich? Is not that the right way for the Government to proceed? Is not it a fact that the Labour councillors who attack Conservative measures are not protecting or helping council tax payers in Norwich?
Mr. Hanley: I wholly agree with my hon. Friend. There is no doubt that if Labour councils were left to their own devices, people would be charged even more than they are now. Even with capping, for band C properties Labour councils will this year charge £163 a year more and Liberal councils £112 a year more than the average for band C under Conservative-controlled administrations.
Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North): In Ealing, the new Labour council immediately put up the council tax by 10 per cent. It said, spuriously, that it was £15 million in debt because of its predecessor, although it had inherited a balance of £12 million. It cut 300 jobs, closed old people's homes, sacked people who deliver meals to the elderly and sacked teachers. Now we discover that there is £17 million in the kitty and that the council is going to repay debts of £39 million that it incurred when it was last in control of Ealing. What a wicked and mendacious lot those people are.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse): Order. Before the Minister replies, I will set out how I intend the debate to continue. It is a serious debate.
Mr. Greenway: It is a serious point.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am sure that it is; I am not referring to the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway). I listened to the points of order to Madam Speaker at the beginning of the debate. The debate will now continue seriously and the Chair will not suffer any nonsense this morning.
Mr. Hanley: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Greenway: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. While I accept your ruling and the fact that you said in response to my incorrect sedentary intervention that you took my remarks seriously, I stress that I have made an extremely serious point about a subject that is
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infuriating my constituents, the constituents of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young), who is present in the Chamber, and probably the rest of the country.Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have already told the hon. Member for Ealing, North that I was not referring to his intervention.
Mr. Norman Hogg (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am reluctant to raise a point of order, but as you rightly said, it is an important debate about a serious matter. Why, then, have the Government brought along their master of ceremonies rather than the--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. That is not a serious point of order either.
Mr. Hanley: It is certainly not, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall explain why I am here. I am here because I am a Cabinet Minister who sits on the ministerial Committee on Local Government, and because the issues have not been given a fair hearing. They are extremely important matters and we should turn the spotlight into the dark corners of town halls that are run by the Opposition parties. We exposed a catalogue of--
Mr. Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Opposition Members are mocking my right hon. Friend, but is it not within your power to call upon the Leader of the Opposition to make a clear statement to the House about what he knew and when he knew it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. That is the end of the nonsense.
Mr. Hanley: I am grateful for your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I must say--particularly to the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), who is a fair man--
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cirencester and Tewkesbury): Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Hanley: If my hon. Friend will allow me to make a little progress, I shall willingly give way. I hope that the community at large will see that my right hon. and hon. Friends are very keen to express their views on the subject. There have been precious few opportunities to deal with the conduct of local government in Great Britain. We have turned the spotlight into the dark corners of town halls that are run by the Opposition parties. During the local government election campaign, we exposed a catalogue of endemic waste, bureaucracy, mismanagement and, yes, even corruption. However, before I refer--
Mr. David Rendel (Newbury): Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Hanley: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman and then I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Clifton-Brown).
Mr. Rendel: Is the Minister telling us that his exposure of what has happened in Labour and Liberal
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Democrat-run councils and his capping of those authorities has led to the Conservative party's dropping to third place in local government?Mr. Hanley: I shall deal directly with that matter.
I think that the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) will admit that, while we all know that democracy is an imperfect science, during local government election campaigns, concentration on the real issues is perhaps not at the forefront of many voters' minds. Today my right hon. and hon. Friends will remind the general public that, in their desire to vote as they wish in local elections--as they are perfectly entitled to do--perhaps about national matters--
Mr. Rendel indicated assent .
Mr. Hanley: Yes, they are perfectly entitled to do that. However, there are other very serious issues that perhaps they did not concentrate on during the recent local election campaign. I look forward to hearing my right hon. and hon. Friends set out those issues today. I am sure that Opposition Members believe that it is an important subject and I look forward to their contributions also. I hope that they will answer some of the charges that my right hon. and hon. Friends will put to them.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: My right hon. Friend will be aware that last week the Government announced their capping decision in relation to Gloucestershire county council. Is he also aware that, although the Government have given a small increase to Gloucestershire county council this year, the council has cut school budgets by between 4 per cent. and 7 per cent? The budget of one rural school in my constituency has been cut by more than 20 per cent.
Is it not a disgrace for the people of Gloucestershire that the county council is running its affairs in that way? Is it not a disgrace for the people of Gloucestershire that the council has wasted £500,000 this year redoing its bills due to its failure to present a case on the cap, on top of the £500,000 that it wasted two years ago? The council wasted £1 million in shredded paper challenging the elected Government of the day. Would not that wasted £1 million go a long way towards helping the old people and the children of Gloucestershire?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Interventions should be brief and to the point.
Mr. Hanley: My hon. Friend makes a very powerful point. It is true that, throughout the local government campaign, Liberal Democrat councils and their leaders concentrated very much on the issue of education. I remember when the leader of the Liberal Democrats said that the local government election should be a referendum on education. The fact that only 15 per cent. of all councillors who were up for election had anything to do with education was neither here nor there.
Mr. McLoughlin: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Some time ago I raised a point of order with Madam Speaker and said that it was quite amazing that hardly any English Members of Parliament were present in the Chamber for a very important debate that has been long trailed. Therefore, I beg to move, That strangers do withdraw.
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Notice having been taken that strangers were present, Mr. Deputy Speaker--, pursuant to Standing Order No. 143 (Withdrawal of strangers from House), put forthwith the Question, That strangers do withdraw:--The House proceeded to a Division.
Mr. Norman Hogg ( seated and covered ): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it right and is it in order for the public and the press to be cleared from the Galleries of the House of Commons on a day when we are discussing local government and, yes, some serious problems in local government?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I cannot help the hon. Gentleman. He may have his own views, but it is a matter for the House to decide. The House having divided: Ayes 0, Noes 74.
Division No. 188] [9.45 am
AYES
Nil
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Tellers for the Ayes: Mr. Robert Hughes and Mr. Alan Duncan.Column 1149
NOESColumn 1149
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Cash, William
Chapman, Sydney
Clappison, James
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Duncan-Smith, Iain
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
French, Douglas
Garnier, Edward
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Hendry, Charles
Hicks, Robert
Horam, John
Jack, Michael
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
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