House of Commons Hansard Debates for 6 Jul 1995

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their jobs, status or income as a result of the changes, they will think that it is a little as though the Government are rather more generous in looking after their friends than others.

The Minister referred to the detriment regulations being brought forward. We look forward to seeing those. I hope that they turn out to be more generous than the original draft. When the metropolitan counties were abolished, detriment was calculated over seven years. Under the draft that has been circulated this time, the period for calculating detriment would be but three years, so I hope that there will be some adjustment.

That brings me to the orders before us today, which will return freedom and independence to Derby and grant it to a combined Brighton and Hove, Bournemouth, Poole, Luton, Milton Keynes for the first time, Southampton, Portsmouth, Stoke-on-Trent, Darlington and Thamesdown. We welcome all those proposals to give full self-government to those areas and we believe that those who had that status before should never have lost it in the first place. There is a proud tradition in those places of being able to maintain good-quality services which satisfied the people of those areas, and under councils of all political persuasions.

Originally, during earlier debates, we asked the Government to make the position clear right across the board on all the proposals covering all authorities. They have now just about done that, which is also very welcome as it gives us an opportunity to check whether there is a consistent approach across the country.

Mr. John Carlisle: We greatly welcome the hon. Gentleman's enthusiastic support for the orders, especially of course for that applying to Luton. Would he perhaps extend his rather generous remarks to those members of his party who are outside the unitary authorities and who have carped and criticised the decisions that have been made? Support from him to them especially his trade union friends, would be most welcome. The House--I hope--will approve orders which will be of enormous benefit to so many constituents of varied hon. Members. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to stop some of his trade union friends who are outside those unitary authorities from carping about what has happened.

Mr. Dobson: There are two points: first, not only Labour people dislike the idea of unitary authorities, of counties being broken up and of county boroughs being created out of counties. Large numbers of people of all political persuasions hold that point of view, which is perfectly legitimate and does not really divide people along party lines. One can believe absolutely profoundly, decently and sincerely in two-tier local government just as easily as one can in single-tier local government. We should not criticise people who are in any position to influence the debate for making their views clear. Secondly, I utterly reject the idea that it is illegitimate for the people who are elected to represent the staff concerned, be they in the unitary authorities or in the counties--none of them is abolished today, but Berkshire will be abolished eventually--to be concerned about those staff whose jobs will be affected. As a result of the creation of unitary authorities, some people now working for counties may no longer have jobs. Other people who may now have positions with high status and high pay

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may lose that status and some of that pay. Many others will find that much insecurity is brought into their lives as a result of the process of change.

It is perfectly legitimate for those people not to like that, and it is equally legitimate for their elected trade union

representatives to make a case on their behalf. That is the way the world is, and that is the way the world should be. We do not want somebody who works for a county council not to be able to have someone to speak up on his behalf. Indeed, as a result of the representations that have been made, several improvements in the terms and conditions affecting the transfers have been achieved. That is a legitimate thing to do.

One advantage of the orders is that new compulsory competitive tendering will not be introduced in the authorities concerned during the process of change. The Government sensibly recognise that that would add complexity and might make matters worse.

It is important that where national conditions are laid down either by order or by national agreements negotiated between the trade unions and the employers, all authorities either honour those agreements to the letter, or exceed them. I would expect all local authorities of all political persuasions--most of them are now Labour, because that is the situation in local government--to honour national agreements or to do even better. I say in advance from the Dispatch Box that I will condemn any authority of whatever political persuasion that fails to stick to the national agreements, and I hope and understand that the Government will not seek to interfere in any of those agreements to the detriment of any of the work force. I believe that the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South-West (Sir D. Madel) has already pointed out that great care will have to be taken by people from the counties and from the newly created unitary authorities to ensure that when the split takes place there is a genuinely fair allocation of resources. I hope that no one of any political persuasion will pursue a scorched-earth policy and either try to spend a vast amount of what they have now, or try to hog future resources in the share-out.

Equally the Government will recognise, as all "conservatives" should, that the process of change is costly. As I understand it, one of the conservative philosophical objections to change is its cost. That is why we should not go in for change without being sure that at the end of it there will be enormous gains that will greatly exceed the costs of the process of change itself. Anyone subscribing to a conservative philosophical viewpoint will clearly recognise that the process of change will be costly, so I hope that the Government will ensure that some additional resources are made available to ease that process. If they do not, the process could be quite damaging both to the unitary authorities and to the counties left behind. It would be a pity to spoil the ship for a hap'orth of tar.

When the new standard spending assessments are disaggregated from the counties, the distribution will need fairly to reflect the needs both of the counties and of the new unitary authorities. Unless that happens, the world being what it is, full of cock-ups, both the counties and the new unitary authorities could end up suffering from the new SSAs.

The change will be a difficult and painful process for many people, and we must try to ensure that everybody--existing elected councillors and newly elected councillors,

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the Government and the staff--acts in good faith for the benefit of the people of the areas concerned. We hope that the arrangements will go forward smoothly, and that the future orders that we can reasonably predict will do the same, as will the whole process of change.

Finally, I thank the Secretary of State and the Minister for their co- operative efforts with my colleagues and myself over what could be described as the review of the review commission, and also for honouring to the letter all the undertakings that they gave me during that process.

5.34 pm

Sir David Madel (Bedfordshire, South-West): I shall talk about the fifth order, which refers to Bedfordshire, but first I congratulate the new Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, West (Mr. Jones), on his elevation. He is my parliamentary next-door neighbour, and I am delighted. All Conservative Members will congratulate him.

I believe that the changes for Bedfordshire can work, not least because we had virtually the same set-up in 1974, before the earlier changes. At that time, Luton had had almost 12 years of governing itself as a unitary authority. The big difference between 1974 and now is that the population in the county has grown considerably, as is reflected by the fact that in 94 weeks' time, when I gather the general election will take place, we shall return six Members of Parliament rather than the four whom we returned in June 1970. The growth in population brings with it challenges, which I shall talk about later.

I am glad that the unacceptable plan for a north-south split in Bedfordshire has been buried--for ever, I hope. We need at least 100 years of stability in the county, and we never want the horrible monster of a north-south split to be resurrected. The order for Bedfordshire paves the way for much closer co-operation between Luton and Dunstable and the rest of south Bedfordshire--co-operation that is needed to deal with our main economic problem, which I shall describe later.

The Government are now actively considering the level of state spending for the next financial year, which will include the revenue support grant. I believe that it is essential that they ease the caps on local authority spending, particularly capital projects, for next year. The most obvious projects that we want to accelerate in Bedfordshire are those that would involve modernising many of our existing schools and building new ones, not least because of our ever increasing population. We would welcome a dramatic and clear easing of the caps for 1996-97.

When my hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government, Housing and Urban Regeneration opened the debate, he said that the new Minister of State would answer in precise mathematical detail a question that I asked about who had what power. As I understand it, as a result of a Government circular, in February 1997, when Bedfordshire county council fixes its budget for 1997-98, the present county councillors for Luton will have no power to participate in the budget decisions.

The Minister for the Environment and Countryside (Mr. Robert B. Jones): I confirm that my hon. Friend's understanding is correct

Sir David Madel: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That means that Bedfordshire county council will have

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49 councillors deciding its budget for 1997- 98. Meanwhile, the shadow authority elected for Luton next year will decide its budget. I am grateful for that assurance.

I want to raise one or two more detailed points, the first of which concerns education. The whole local management of schools system for Luton will have to go ahead before there is any administration to look after it. By the time the elections for the unitary authority take place, LMS will have had to have been prepared and a consultation draft approved. By the time the chief education officer has been appointed, the whole scheme will have had to have been submitted to the Department for Education and Employment. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister can say who will prepare and approve the scheme, and which body will give it political approval.

The present system of funding changes means that shire counties such as Bedfordshire have to find the set-up costs for unitary authorities such as Luton. That means cuts in the services provided by the remaining two-tier authorities. At the same time, the counties' resource bases are reduced disproportionately with the removal of big towns and cities. Reducing the scale of operations is costly, and redundancy payments alone could add considerably to county council budgets. Bedfordshire county council has one library computer system, based in Luton. The cost implications of providing a second system are considerable. Many other complications will follow the transfer and downsizing of services.

In future, the structure plan for Bedfordshire will be prepared jointly by Bedfordshire county council and Luton borough council, but no guidance has been given on how the joint working will be established. Waste and mineral planning will not be considered jointly. That is a mistake, as Luton has nowhere to put its waste and will rely on Bedfordshire's landfill sites and waste transfer stations. That needs to be organised jointly.

The make-up of the police authority does not appear to be clear. A total of nine members will be appointed by Bedfordshire county council and Luton borough council. Should not the membership be determined by population, as that would be truly representative and democratic? The county would then have six members and Luton three. A system based on the number of councillors would favour Luton, whose councillors represent fewer electors per division. Luton, with 48 councillors, would have at least four members on the authority while the county, with 49 councillors, would have five.

In the case of the combined fire authority, the membership will be based on population. It would be helpful if the same arrangements could apply to the police authority.

My final point on costs deals with the supplementary credit approvals to implement the reorganisation. Can my hon. Friend the Minister confirm that restructured county councils such as Bedfordshire will be treated in the same way as new unitary authorities in the allocation of supplementary credit approvals to cover the costs of the reorganisation?

Mr. John Carlisle: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and neighbour, for giving way. While I appreciate that what he has said has come to a certain extent from the county council, I am concerned that the impression might

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go out from Bedfordshire that the unitary authority of Luton will not, in the longer run, make great savings following the split from Bedfordshire. I know that my hon. Friend will not want to give the House that impression, or suggest that the authority will go to the Government with a begging bowl to ask for more cash. We are happy with the arrangements, which could in the long term result in a substantial saving for the council tax payers of the county.

Sir David Madel: I do not disagree with my hon. Friend, but the interim costs of the reorganisation are uncertain. I felt that I should raise some of the uncertainties now, because it will be some time before the new authorities settle down. My hon. Friend is right to say that we must always keep costs in the county down so that council tax payers have value for money.

The big change that has occurred between 1974 and now is the economic problem in the south of the county and the rate of unemployment. The latest unemployment figures provided by Bedfordshire county council show that the rate of unemployment in Houghton Central and Houghton East is more than 10 per cent., while in Northfields it is 8.3 per cent. Across the border in Luton, the rate of unemployment in Biscot is 20 per cent., while in Dallow it is 20.1 per cent.

A great deal of unemployment was caused by the shattering loss of truck manufacturing in Dunstable. As yet, we do not have a replacement manufacturer for the Bedford truck site. I cannot emphasise too strongly the huge pall of despair that still hangs over Dunstable and Houghton Regis about the loss of the truck manufacturing jobs. When the two new authorities have settled down, they will want to work closely together to bring about an improvement in the infrastructure in the south of the county to get those jobs back.

Fortunately, there is one bright light on the horizon to help us--the launch this autumn of the new Vauxhall Vectra in Luton. Vauxhall employs a large number of my constituents, and everyone in Bedfordshire is willing the new car to be a stunning success. Would not it be a wonderful tonic if the rumours going around were true--that Vauxhall is considering building the highly successful Corsa at Luton as well? The jobs created if two types of car were to be produced at Luton would be a colossas boost to the area. I appeal to General Motors, the parent company of Vauxhall, to remember the intense loyalty shown for years by hundreds of truck employees who used to work at the Bedford truck plant and who now, alas, are unemployed.

We want to make every effort to assist in the economic regeneration of the Luton, Dunstable and Houghton Regis area. The population has gone up greatly, and there will be co-operation between the two authorities.

Mr. Dobson: I understand that the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) are trying to find out what will be the status of county councillors from Luton following the election in May next year of the new Luton council. Unless there is some provision which is not in this order, it would appear to me that councillors from Luton will be able to take a full part in the activities of the county council for a further year.

Sir David Madel: I have dealt with that matter.

Mr. Robert B. Jones: It might be helpful if I intervene. The hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras

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(Mr. Dobson) is correct--that matter is not dealt with in this order. We are consulting on the regulations to which my hon. Friend referred, which would mean that county councillors would not be able to take part in the budget process for a year after the formation of the county council in that area. I hope that that satisfies the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras.

Sir David Madel: You probably want me to conclude my speech, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The main difference between the economic situation now and that of 20 years ago is the rate of unemployment. I wish the two authorities well, and I hope that they will succeed in working together successfully. Their main priority must be to do everything they can to drive the unemployment rate down in the south of the county and to get new manufacturing businesses into the area. We are desperate for that, and I am certain that we can succeed.

5.47 pm

Mr. Alan Milburn (Darlington): The order that brings into being a single-tier Darlington council is long overdue, but none the less very welcome news for the town. Before I became a Member of Parliament, I urged Ministers to give the people of Darlington what they have long wanted--a return to self-government. Many hon. Members who represent former county boroughs will realise that places such as Darlington have a sturdy reputation for independence.

The town first became a borough in 1867, with the grant of a royal charter, but when the Local Government Act 1888 authorised the establishment of both county councils and county borough councils, a conflict of responsibilities grew between Darlington borough and Durham county councils. Happily, the matter was resolved expeditiously--following a six-day Government inquiry-- with the granting of county borough status for Darlington in 1915. It is particularly appropriate then that self-government is finally being restored to the town this year--the 80th anniversary of Darlington's becoming a county borough. It is a pity that what could be achieved in six days in the early part of the century has taken almost three years at the end of it.

After all, there can have been few more clear-cut cases in what has sometimes become a chaotic and shambolic local government review than Darlington's bid to run all its own local services. It must from the outset have been clear to all and sundry, particularly to Ministers, that whatever the outcome of the review in the rest of the county, Darlington had a good case for going it alone.

I say that for a number of reasons, not least because Darlington has a history of self-government. As a county borough, the town ran all local services until 1974, when the last Conservative local government review stripped local people of that right. That decision inflicted wounds that are felt to this day in a town in which traditions of civic pride and community identity are held strongly. Darlington had run local schools, libraries and other services with aplomb until 1974.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) said, Darlington and other towns that had county borough status should never have lost control over their services in the first place. Local people want their town's local government services run locally. That is certainly the case in Darlington.

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According to the MORI poll undertaken by the Local Government Commission, 74 per cent. of Darlington respondents supported the unitary principle. While residents from elsewhere in the county favoured no change for their local council structure, two thirds of Darlington people wanted a single-tier Darlington authority. In other words, there was and is clear and overwhelming popular support for self- government in the town.

Apart from a slight hiccup--a slight split in the local Conservative party, which is I suppose a fact of life nowadays for Conservative politicians, whether local or national--on the boundaries of any new authority, local public consensus was reflected politically and there was genuine all-party support for a single-tier local authority in the town. That in itself is a reflection of the recognised differences between Darlington and the rest of County Durham. It is distinct from the rest of the county in its patterns of employment, housing tenure, size and history.

To this day, Darlington retains a market town character. It has more people working in service industries and a higher proportion of people who own their own homes than the rest of the county. It is the biggest centre of population in the county and economically the growth pole for future development. Thankfully, Darlington has managed to avoid some of the economic blight that has been visited upon other parts of the county, which has been decimated by the decline of industries such as coal mining.

Inevitably, many people in the town feel that, in a two-tier system of local government, Darlington's differences and needs have sometimes played second fiddle to county-wide objectives when it comes to determining resource allocation by the county council. Despite that, Durham county council has played a positive role in Darlington. As we go forward to a single-tier Darlington authority, I am sure that that positive relationship will be a very real asset. The county council has certainly managed recent changes in local services--not least in the town's schools--with much skill and sensitivity.

None the less, the confusions caused by the two-tier structure of local government in County Durham are a pressing reason for progress towards a single-tier Darlington council. For example, in services such as planning, leisure, arts, museums, economic development and transport, there is an overlap in the functions between the existing county and borough councils. There is also confusion in the public mind about who does what and whether local services are the responsibility of the town hall or the county hall. In Darlington, the public would certainly prefer their services to be run locally rather than from a county hall some 20 miles away from the centre of the town.

Those are the reasons why there is such strong support for the unitary principle in Darlington. I believe that it is a principle that has much to commend it throughout local government. On grounds of efficiency, public understanding, accessibility and sensible decision making, single-tier councils seem to make much sense. In Darlington's case, the unitary principle was always particularly applicable.

Given all of that, why has it taken so long for the Government to get around to agreeing this logical change to the structure of local government in the town? After all, as the Minister is well aware, in County Durham the

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review began in September 1992. The delay in reaching a final decision for Darlington and the rest of the county was caused by one simple fact--we have had not one, but two reviews.

In May 1993, the Local Government Commission first recommended a single- tier Darlington council, outside a two-tier County Durham. In November of that year, after extensive local consultation involving about 28,000 responses from the county's residents, the same recommendation was made--so far, so good. The public had responded and the commission had done its job. It had come up with a commonsense solution for Darlington and there was a clear consensus behind that outcome.

Then things started to go badly wrong because Ministers started to meddle. The Secretary of State for the Environment issued new guidance to the commission. Whatever view one takes of the wisdom of the guidance or the decision, because of the clear-cut position in Darlington, the obvious thing to do was to exempt the town from a further review. Indeed, I led an all-party delegation to the Minister for Local Government, Housing and Urban Regeneration to argue that case in December 1993.

Instead, Ministers decided to ride roughshod over local views by forcing Darlington to go through a second review. Exactly the same organisations and people were consulted the second time round, with just two exceptions-- the lord lieutenant of the county and the county's magistrates. Whatever those people and organisations have to commend them, frankly, they were never going to make a substantial difference to the original recommendations, so it was no surprise that, when the commission published its second set of recommendations in July 1994 and its final, final set last December, the outcome was as before--Darlington would go it alone, with the remainder of County Durham staying two-tier. In the process, however, precious time and resources have been lost and wasted.

The farce that I have described threw Darlington's future back into the melting pot. It left the future of thousands of local authority staff members hanging in the air and, crucially, ministerial chopping and changing cost Darlington vital time in preparing its future. When the Minister opened the debate, he spoke warmly of the Tees Valley Development Company, which has great potential. The future of Darlington's strategic planning and economic development functions lies eastwards--rather than northwards--with the four new single-tier Cleveland authorities. Darlington council is eager to play a full part in that emerging Tees Valley Development Company but, unlike the other four local authority founding members, it cannot commit any resources until next year. That is holding the project back. Those unnecessary delays are especially galling because so many of the pieces of the jigsaw are in place to make Darlington an economic success. The town has everything going for it. It has green-field sites, an attractive location, a proud industrial tradition, major international firms that call Darlington their home and excellent communications.

Darlington also has another ingredient which, in my opinion, nowhere else in Britain can match--local people and local organisations who are committed to the town and want it to succeed. Darlington is blessed with people

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willing to work together in partnership for the benefit of the whole community. It has more than 700 voluntary organisations, many of them bearing the name Darlington in their title. It has almost more charity shops than anywhere else in the country.

That spirit of community, which is so evident in the town, has been given expression by new organisations such as the Darlington employers forum. I am proud to chair that organisation, which brings together the town's largest employers, whether they be in the public or the private sector, and training bodies and community organisations, behind a single economic plan for the area. The forum's plan, called "Creating New Opportunity", aims to create about 5,000 new jobs by the turn of the century by means of public and private sector partnership initiatives. As long as two local authority decision makers, not one, decide the town's future, however, that plan risks being compromised. That is why the order is so important. It is a matter of regret that Darlington will not have a single decision maker until 1997. That position should, and could, have been avoided.

None the less, the order gives Darlington a chance to shape its own future. It will offer coherent, co-ordinated and efficient decision making. Above all, it will restore to local people power that should never have been taken from them in the first place.

6.1 pm

Mr. Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne): First, may I add my congratulations to those of colleagues on the promotion of my hon. Friend the Minister?

I wish to speak against the East Sussex (Boroughs of Brighton and Hove) (Structural Change) Order. I shall try to be as constructive as I can, because we must learn lessons for the future from the process that has taken place in the past couple of years or so. We need to evolve a system whereby the hopes of local people are not raised only to be dashed, councils are not set against one another in a kind of propaganda war, and real weight is given to strong feelings of local identity in a community.

We in Eastbourne have emerged from that process bruised and bewildered. If anyone had told me, at the start of all that, that when we came out of it we would continue to have a two-tier system in East Sussex, but with about 30 per cent. of the population stripped out of it into a separate unitary authority, I simply should not have believed them.

I should say a word about my constituents in Polegate and Willingdon, who will remain part of Wealden. I know that they feel greatly relieved about that, and Wealden is a very well-run council. I am pleased for my constituents in those parts of my constituency. My speech is directed to my constituents in the borough of Eastbourne.

I appreciate that there is always an element of special pleading in such cases, but I make no apology for what I say this evening. Few cases for a unitary authority can have been as strong as that of Eastbourne, a town which had had a long and proud tradition as a county borough from 1910 to 1974.

On that issue there was an outstanding amount of unity in the community, in all political parties, throughout the council, business organisations, voluntary organisations and so on. My hon. Friend the then Minister for Local Government, Housing and Urban Regeneration was good

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enough to say that the delegation that I led to meet him from Eastbourne was one of the most impressive he had seen.

Our brush with the Local Government Commission was an unfortunate experience. I felt that it had placed far too much emphasis on a single, deeply flawed MORI poll. It applied abstract notions which were irrelevant to our real needs. It recognised a strong sense of local identity, but proceeded to ignore it.

In its interim recommendations, the commission produced two options. The first option was the so-called "south downs authority", effectively merging Eastbourne with Lewes and south Wealden. That would have merged communities with different needs and aspirations--a predominantly rural community with a coastal and tourism-oriented community.

The second option, which I dubbed during the process "the option from hell", is basically the position we have now, except that Brighton would have been on its own according to that proposal, and Hove would have joined Adur and Worthing. However, deaf to all entreaties, the commission's final recommendation was basically option 2. The commission never got fully to grips with the special sense of identity in Eastbourne, and its implications.

As I have said, the commission did recognise that identity. I quote from its report:

"The town has a strong sense of place, being a Victorian model town and a former county borough. It is also a significant shopping, business and commercial centre, with good infrastructure to support service delivery which in part reflects its former status as a county borough."

The other evidence is overwhelming. A National Opinion Polls poll showed 74 per cent. support for a unitary authority. A household survey conducted by the council showed 94.6 per cent. support. Even on the commission's green form exercise--in which 14 per cent. of the electorate replied, which is a comparatively large proportion--nearly 70 per cent. of those who replied rejected both of the commission's options and wrote in their preference for the Eastbourne option. That was the highest percentage vote in England for an option not sponsored by the commission. It equalled the total votes for unitary status in Leicester, Nottingham and Northampton combined. There was ample evidence of that strong feeling in my mailbag.

Eastbourne was a county borough and proud of it, a self-contained town encircled by the downland and the sea, a model town, laid out by the then Duke of Devonshire, described as being built by a gentleman for gentlemen at that time. It was the first town to have its own electric light company, police force and water company, and it had the first municipal bus company in the whole country. It has always been a town that knows where it is going. A more modern example is the £500 million Sovereign harbour development. The town has a tradition of self-governance. [Interruption.]

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) reminds me that the House once voted through the night, under the persuasion of my predecessor, the late Ian Gow, for that very project. The population of Eastbourne has increased rapidly. It is now 88, 000--not, technically, enough for the rather unimaginative limits imposed by the commission, but we add about 10,000 every 10 years. In the next decade,

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admissions to secondary education are projected to increase by 37 per cent. It is the south-east's major tourist town, with revenues of £110 million a year, 2.8 million visitor nights and 2.6 million day visitors a year. For four months of the year, the population swells to about 150,000. Even in the so-called "shoulder" seasons, it is rarely less than 100,000.

There are also arguments relating to economic regeneration. I am pleased to say that we were recently beneficiaries of £1.5 million from the single regeneration budget. Eastbourne is a town with a long tradition of close co-operation between private and public sectors, especially by means of organisations such as the Eastbourne Business Partnership and the Eastbourne Marketing Group.

There is a major fear that, under those new arrangements, Brighton and Hove and the county will make strategic decisions over the heads of those of us in Eastbourne. Brighton is our closest--and one of our biggest--rivals for tourism, conferences and funding of all types. We also had strong arguments about the viability of the rump that would be left if Eastbourne also were to be stripped out of the county council. We have provided clear evidence that services such as education and social services would not suffer. We felt that our residual population of about 390,000--nearly equal in size to Shropshire, and more than Northumberland--was more than enough to make the remaining county council absolutely viable.

I make no complaint about my right hon. and hon. Friends who have been wrestling with the contents of this Pandora's box for some time, but I do criticise the role of the county council. Even after the decision to set up Brighton and Hove and to retain a slimmed-down county, the county council has been lobbying hard against Eastbourne achieving unitary status. I publicly described that attitude as "dog in the manger", and I do not resile from one bit of it.

I share the sense of unease left after that process at the failure of the Local Government Commission to appreciate the strength of our case. We felt disappointed about the doubts that emerged later in the process about the Secretary of State's power to modify the proposals emerging from the commission. There was major disappointment that we were not on the list to be referred back to the reconstituted commission.

For all those reasons, it is with real regret that I say that I shall be unable to join my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Division Lobby this evening.

6.10 pm

Mr. David Rendel (Newbury): It is a great privilege to have a chance to follow such strong criticism of the Local Government Commission with a slightly different speech from that given by the main spokesman for the official Opposition, the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), who now seems to be in the Government's pocket on this issue.

The whole process of the review of the structure of local government has been a shambles. I have said that before and shall not hesitate to say it again. It has been a tale of incompetence on the part of the Government from start to finish, with guidelines which have shifted radically

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from time to time, an attempt to manipulate the commission to suit the Government's intended outcomes, and a wholly inconsistent process of consultation.

The starting point for the review should have been not the structure of local government but the effective delivery of services to local communities. Yet, as we have seen today, the Labour party has now been dragged into the Government's shoddy game of stitching up county after county for their purposes, despite the fact that Labour Members had previously seemed determined, on behalf of their union friends, to oppose every order as it came before the House. First, I emphasise that I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues wholeheartedly support decentralising power, not just to unitary authorities but down to town, village and parish councils. But we do that in a way that is informed at all stages by public opinion, and that is how it should be done. It is vital that all the structures of government carry the support and confidence of the people whom they are meant to serve. The fact that the structures set up in 1973 did not do that has caused so many difficulties since.

Mr. John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West): I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman says about the Liberal Democrats being sensitive to public opinion. Does that explain why the Liberal Democrat administration in Dorset so vehemently opposed public opinion in Bournemouth and Poole, and tried its best to deny them unitary status?

Mr. Rendel: The hon. Gentleman knows very well that what is best in terms of public opinion in Bournemouth and Poole may not be best in the rest of Dorset. There are all sorts of views, as I shall show in a moment, and sometimes public opinion in a whole county is not the same as in individual towns and cities. We shall do our best to listen to public opinion throughout.

Many of the boroughs proposed as unitary authorities in the orders before us have not been properly consulted on the specific proposals. I know that the Government have a peculiar view of consultation, but even they must acknowledge that, in many of those cases, local people have not expressed conclusive support for the proposed changes. Even where reasonable consultation has taken place, there is a huge divergence between the preferences expressed in the NOP and MORI opinion polls. So only some of the orders before us tonight can be said to have the undoubted support of local people, which is why I intend to treat them one by one rather than en masse, as the Labour party seems to wish to do. That is no basis on which to restructure local government.

I have a few comments to make about the practical considerations of implementing and financing the restructuring. The arguments about the provision of strategic services are now well rehearsed, but many people still fear for education and the emergency services, for instance, and for the basic coherence of policy in a number of other areas. It will clearly be up to local authorities to co-operate in various joint arrangements to make those matters work. Unfortunately, the Government give the impression that that is simply not their problem, and that they have no role to play in finding the solution.

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There are also real concerns about finance. The meagre finance support mechanism that is intended to underpin the structural reform is borrowing via the mechanism of supplementary credit approvals. That was to be made available chiefly to the unitary authorities, as the counties were all expected to be abolished. Now that the review is being scaled down, however, it represents a major problem. In each county, the borough or district that will become a unitary authority will take priority for supplementary credit approval, yet the remaining county will have to foot a large slice of the bill, with only limited access to additional borrowing facilities. That is likely to be a particular problem in Hampshire, and the Government will no doubt have had representations from that county especially. If capping is to remain in place, it will inevitably mean cuts to services, specifically--almost certainly--to education. But if capping is relaxed, it could mean much higher council tax bills in the coming years for people who have had no say on the matter.

The review has been inspired and instituted by central Government. It is therefore central Government who must ensure that local authorities have sufficient funds to carry the reforms through, even if only through re- prioritising and rescheduling supplementary credit approvals. It would be especially ironic if people who opted for the status quo in their areas on the ground of thrift were now given higher council tax bills because their neighbouring authority had been restructured into a unitary authority.

A related problem could also arise in councillors' representation on police authorities. If councillors from a new unitary authority are to be added to the pool of county councillors on a one-to-one basis for the purpose of selecting the right balance of political representation on a police authority, those unitary councillors will slant the political representation in favour of that existing in their area.

That is clearly not democratic, and will do nothing to improve the workings of police authorities. I know that that matter is a particular concern of the Association of County Councils, and I seek the Government's assurance that that concern will be taken on board and a solution found.

I wish briefly to consider the level of local support for each of the nine counties that we are considering today. I shall take them in the order of the Order Paper. The MORI poll conducted in Thamesdown made it clear that about 50 per cent. of local people were in favour of a change to unitary status and only 11 per cent. wanted to maintain the status quo. In Wiltshire as a whole, the figures were 57 per cent. in favour of unitary status and only 15 per cent. in favour of the status quo. Moreover, the county of Thamesdown and the neighbouring districts were both in favour of that change. There is undoubtedly a worry about the costs. Annual costs are expected to rise by £2 million and transitional costs by up to 7 million. In that area, however, local support is clear and I shall therefore support that order.

In Staffordshire, the MORI poll showed that, in Stoke, some 39 per cent. of people were in favour of some sort of change, but as many as 35 per cent. were in favour of no change. In Staffordshire as a whole, 39 per cent. were in favour of some change, but 36 per cent. were in favour of no change-- very evenly balanced. Moreover, many of

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