House of Commons Hansard Debates for 6 Jul 1995

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those, particularly in Stoke city, who favoured change would have preferred an enlarged Stoke city. There has been no real consultation about a unitary Stoke council, so in this case there is not sufficient evidence of local support to support the proposed change.

Mr. Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent, Central): Will the hon. Gentleman consider for a moment that, by giving the incantation of evidence that he has from MORI polls, he makes a mockery of his protestations that he is in favour of listening to people? He knows nothing about the communities he is talking about, and I doubt whether he has even visited Stoke-on-Trent.

What on earth is the hon. Gentleman doing pontificating about the views of people in Stoke-on-Trent? Will he reconsider his speech, make it considerably shorter, and have more respect for the views of people who live in the communities that he is pontificating about?

Mr. Rendel: I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman does not think that views expressed in MORI polls, and other polls, are worth listening to.

Mr. Fisher: Real people's views are more important.

Mr. Rendel: I should have thought that the real people who respond to those polls are worth listening to, and I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman does not. In Darlington--

Mr. Robert B. Jones: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves Staffordshire and Stoke, he seemed to place a great deal of emphasis on the view that he ascribed to the people of Stoke that the city should be extended. Does he not think that the people of Newcastle-under-Lyme or neighbouring areas may have views which might be in conflict with the views of the people of Stoke, and which must also be taken into account?

Mr. Rendel: Of course the views of surrounding towns need to be taken into account. It is because there has been no proper consultation that there is insufficient evidence to go ahead with the Government's proposal. We do not know what would have emerged had there been consultation on the order.

In Durham and Darlington, the MORI poll showed clear support in Darlington for the unitary principle. It is a pity that there was no consultation on having Darlington as the sole unitary authority, with the rest of the county remaining two-tier, especially because there are worries about the cost of the proposed changes--possibly up to £3 million annually. That will affect Durham county as well as Darlington itself. The people of Darlington clearly wish for unitary status, and that wish deserves to be supported.

In Derbyshire, the MORI poll in Derby showed that 50 per cent. supported some form of unitary solution, with only 19 per cent. against it. In Derby city, the majority was even greater, with up to 66 per cent. supporting it. In Derbyshire as a whole, the figure was 50 per cent. Derby's population of 227,000 makes it one of the largest non-metropolitan districts, and thus a suitable case for a unitary authority.

In the county of Derbyshire, all districts except Chesterfield supported the case for a unitary Derby, and the NOP analysis gave a figure of approval as high as 91 per cent. in Derby. There is still a worry about the annual

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cost of up to £3 million and transitional costs of £5 million, but it seems that local opinion is generally in favour, and the order should therefore be supported.

In Bedfordshire, the MORI poll showed 62 per cent. in favour of a unitary Luton, and only 8 per cent. in favour of no change. In Bedfordshire as a whole, 55 per cent. favoured change and only 13 per cent. were against. Therefore, there is clear support for change, and that is another of the orders that deserves to be supported. In Buckinghamshire, a unitary Milton Keynes, with the rest of the county remaining two-tier, was the least preferred option in the county, and in Milton Keynes itself. The districts preferred four unitary authorities, and the county preferred a two-tier system to remain. There are considerable extra costs involved--between £1 million and £4 million in increased annual costs and transitional costs of between £2 million and £5 million.

The Government's option for structural change in Buckinghamshire was rejected by the Local Government Commission, which found: "there has been a lack of general support for this proposal." I do not believe that there is sufficient local backing for me to support that order tonight.

Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury): Could the hon. Gentleman say whether he supports the option, which was advocated by the districts, of four unitary authorities, which the Local Government Commission said would be a great deal more expensive than that which the Government have brought forward?

Mr. Rendel: I have not attempted to decide which other option is preferable. That would need further consultation with the local people. I have taken what I could of the evidence of what people think about that order, and based my decision on that.

In Bournemouth and Poole, there is considerable support for change, especially in Bournemouth, where the figures are 54 per cent. in favour and 18 per cent. against, according to the MORI poll. That is a much larger proportion than favoured a unitary authority in Poole, where the figures were only 40 per cent. in favour and 35 per cent. against.

However, in the direct representations to the commission, especially from the local councillors concerned, there has been heavy support in both areas for a change. That is not in itself conclusive, but, together with the support shown in the MORI poll, I believe that the order should certainly be supported, particularly because of the high support in Bournemouth.

In East Sussex, which has already caused some controversy tonight, the solution of a unitary Brighton and Hove, with the rest of the county two- tier, was not offered in the consultation process. There was substantial support for no change or for other options, especially in Hove. There is a clear need to re-consult the people in Brighton and Hove on the new proposal for a joint unitary authority. I do not believe that there has been public support sufficient to show that that order should go through.

Finally, in Hampshire, there is much evidence from the direct representations made to the commission of a clear case for both Southampton and Portsmouth to be made into unitary authorities, although the evidence is also

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strong in the case of New Forest. There is great disappointment there that the Government have not gone ahead with a unitary authority for New Forest.

There is concern in Hampshire about the speed with which the Government will move to ensure that ceremonial functions in Hampshire will not be affected by the setting up of new unitary authorities in Southampton and Portsmouth. I hope that the Minister will give Hampshire further assurances on that. There is also a worry about the cost of the change. The annual cost will be up to £3 million, and transitional costs may be as high as £9 million. The MORI poll was somewhat inconclusive, although generally in favour of some change. I therefore believe that there is a marginal case to be made in favour of the unitary authorities.

All in all, this is something of a dog's breakfast. The review of the local authority structure has done considerable damage to local democracy. A review was needed, and local government needs to be brought closer to the people and made more accessible, relevant and responsive. However, very few people of independent judgment would question the view that the Government have made a pig's ear of the job.

Perhaps, in future, Ministers will take more time to listen to local councillors and spend less time pandering to the Tory right. If they do not, they can look forward to ever deeper defeats in local elections-- defeats which, so far, have been richly deserved. 6.28 pm

Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, North): On behalf of the 178,000 residents of Luton, and some 500,000 residents of Bedfordshire, I must say that we breathe the most enormous sigh of relief that the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) approved the order that affects us. We were on tenterhooks. We were desperately worried about our future because of the importance of the hon. Member's speech. People would not have slept soundly in their beds tonight had he come down against that order, and others.

The hon. Gentleman's speech was government by opinion poll. So long as the MORI opinion poll said that a particular local populace approved the orders, that was all right with the Liberal Democrats. Never mind the personal opinions that people expressed or the deep historical factors. They were dismissed as pig's ears, dog's dinners or dog's breakfasts.

In the many years that I have been in this place, I have heard some pompous speeches from Liberal Members but that took the biscuit. The hon. Gentlemen had the audacity to go through orders affecting places that he has never, I suggest, seen, visited or even heard of until the orders were published today. To give the House his personal opinion, with no support whatever from other members of his party, and to say magnanimously to hon. Members, who have fought for years for their patches and who have gone through the discussions and deliberations, that he--possibly representing his party-- finally approves the orders is almost an insult to the intelligence of hon. Members.

I am glad that the hon. Member for Newbury has sat down because I do not think that many of us could have stood much more. If the Liberal Democrats really mean

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what they say, will they please say that people do matter? The hon. Gentleman and his party have, on many occasions, dismissed opinion polls as irrelevant because they find themselves at the bottom of those polls. They say that opinion polls do not matter and that what matters is people. It is not worthy of the hon. Gentleman or his party for him to give such a pious and pompous speech.

I can speak with some clarity and a great deal of enthusiasm on behalf of the people of Luton and the people of Bedfordshire. We in Luton and Bedfordshire, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, South-West (Sir D. Madel) has said, welcome the order that affects us. We pay tribute, which the hon. Member for Newbury failed to do, to the members of the Local Government Commission for England. They worked extremely hard and spoke not only to residents in the areas concerned, but to Members of Parliament. Perhaps they missed out the hon. Gentleman; I do not know. There were tortuous proceedings and historical discussions, which were absolutely necessary. I pay tribute to the commission for coming up with an extremely satisfactory answer for Bedfordshire.

I am sorry that this debate coincides with a speech being made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in the Queen Elizabeth II conference centre. I am sure that my hon. Friends who are present share my disappointment. I know that my right hon. Friend welcomes the orders. If the hon. Member for Newbury presses his rather bizarre thoughts to a vote, we shall ensure that he is defeated.

The order is welcome for Luton. Many of us look back to the pre-1974 days; I speak as a son of the county, having been born and educated there. Before 1974, Luton was a unitary authority, with county borough status, and ran its own affairs. That is why the campaign, admirably led by the citizens of Luton, has been successful. People understand that local authorities must represent the local people; local people have a say and they identify with their area.

People often ask me which constituency I represent. When I say that I proudly represent the town of Luton, they say, "I have been through it," and their face falls. If those people stopped off in Luton, they would find citizens of the highest order--people who are proud of their traditions and of the facilities that the town offers. To return, as I hope we now shall, to unitary status and to be able to look after our own affairs are matters of great pride to us in Luton, and I think that the people of Bedfordshire feel the same. My hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, South-West rightly expressed to the House and to the Minister certain concerns that are still felt by the county. I appreciate them, but I shall not bore the House by repeating them. There will, of course, be difficult times ahead in the discussions between the Department of the Environment, elected councillors, council officers and the citizens of Luton. As my hon. Friend said, we are worried about the budget and about the decisions that may be made when the shadow council comes into being. I believe, however, that those matters can easily be put on one side. A new spirit of co-operation between the two areas is already apparent.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, South-West rightly mentioned the economic welfare of the south of the county and he was right to point out that we have suffered, as have other areas, from the demise of

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manufacturing, especially in the truck- building industry. My hon. Friend is also right to say that we hope that the unitary authority for Luton will try to restore Luton as a manufacturing base and that it will create some form of employment. There is enormous enthusiasm for regeneration in that part of the county. I congratulate the county council and Luton borough council on their recent success in obtaining £5 million in regeneration grant. We all enjoy the success of Vauxhall and, like my hon. Friend, I hope that the launch of the new car will bring new prosperity for my constituents and for the town of Luton generally. With unitary status, we should go forward on the basis that Luton people are proud of what they have and of what they have done.

There will, of course, be problems in certain areas in the next couple of years, and I shall outline them briefly to my hon. Friend the Minister. One problem concerns the roads structure. As I hinted earlier, people say that they have been through Luton. They have been through Luton because they have been travelling on one of the main arterial roads of this country--the M1. In the county of Bedfordshire, we have been lucky in obtaining substantial sums of taxpayers' money to improve our road structure, particularly through bypassing villages and within the borough.

There is, however, a certain concern that, because of the forthcoming unitary status, some of the road projects that are dealt with by the county, especially those within the borough of Luton--I am thinking especially of the Luton east circular road--could be put on one side, even at this stage, by the county council. The road scheme is on the list, but it may not be scheduled for some years yet. Luton will be hived off and there is concern that, because we shall be on our own, grants from the taxpayer may not be forthcoming. There is also concern that the county council may be tempted to say that if a project concerns Luton, it will be left on one side. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to ensure that if projects come before him, especially if money is made available from the Department of Transport, Luton is not forgotten. I ask that there should be no bias against the town because of its future unitary status.

The hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) talked about a scorched-earth policy and I think that he is right to alert all of us to the difficulties that may occur within the next few years when a county sees part of its area becoming a unitary authority. It would be sad and unnecessary for county councils, whether Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire, or whatever, to pursue such a policy towards areas that were becoming unitary authorities. Education is very much a county responsibility at the moment. Some potential problems will be relieved as more schools become grant- maintained; I was interested to note that the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras did not mention that point. If more educational establishments move towards grant-maintained status--I hope that schools in my constituency will do so--the transition period will be so much easier. Not all schools, of course, will go in that direction. For that reason, it is right that the transition should take place as quickly and as smoothly as possible.

In Luton, we have retained an education system in which schools do not have a sixth form. I make this plea to those who may be elected on to the unitary authority, either as shadow councillors or as proper councillors in

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1997. We should perhaps consider bringing back the sixth form to some of our schools. We have a superb sixth form college which I am proud to have in my constituency. I believe, however, that many schools are being held back because they do not have a sixth form. If there is any spin-off advantage from unitary status, I hope that sixth forms may come about.

The other two major activities in the town are the airport and the university. I hope that the airport will go from strength to strength, especially when we have sense enough to ensure that it is put fully into private hands. It is rather sad that there is still some resistance from the Labour council and that there was some cowardice on the part of the former Tory council.

The other plus for our area is the university, which has provided for many students, from my constituency and from many others, an enormous benefit. It is a place where students can get an excellent education. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South (Sir G. Bright)--I am sorry that he cannot be here with us this afternoon--made an excellent speech on the subject just a few weeks ago.

Overall, on behalf of my constituents and the people of Luton, I welcome the order. We have been wanting for a long time to return to managing our own affairs and to be rulers in our own fiefdom. It has been welcomed by the people of the county, who, in effect, are staying where they are. The commission's recommendation is right. Luton very much looks forward to unitary status. We can go from strength to strength. On behalf of my constituents, I support this excellent order.

6.40 pm

Mr. John Denham (Southampton, Itchen): I welcome the decision to return powers to the city of Southampton and, as the only Hampshire Member present in the Chamber, the decision to return powers to Portsmouth, which I know will be equally welcomed there. It will put both the major cities in Hampshire in a strong position to make the most of their strengths as they move into the 21st century. I pay tribute to all the people in Southampton who have pressed consistently for this change for the past 20 years, and, if I can strike a partisan note, particularly to the Southampton Labour party and its councillors, who have been unwavering under the Labour Government up until 1979 and the present Administration in pressing for the return of powers to the historic city of Southampton. I believe that the change reflects unambiguously what the vast majority of people in Southampton want to see.

I listened with some amazement to the speech of the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel). He provided some explanation for a question that had puzzled me: why the Liberal Democrat members on Southampton city council had voted consistently for a return of powers, whereas their councillors, who represent the same people in the same wards, had reflected, they said, the views of the people by voting against the change, and, on the occasions when those councillors were one and the same person, managed to support both policies on two different councils. Despite the finesse of the analysis of the MORI poll, I suspect that what we heard earlier will lend itself more to numerous ambiguous statements in numerous Focus leaflets in different parts of the country than any serious analysis of what local people in different parts of the country want to happen.

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It is a matter of regret in Southampton that, unlike many other places--I acknowledge what other hon. Members have said--the Conservative party has not supported the return of powers for most of the past 20 years. It has taken a rather curmudgeonly attitude on this issue, which, no doubt, is why it is now in third place in the city that it once controlled. None the less, half the Conservative Members supported the change when it was recently discussed, and I welcome that.

Over recent years, the Labour leadership of the councils of many of the towns and cities that will now enjoy renewed powers has established public confidence in the idea that powerful unitary authorities can play a leading role in making those towns and cities successful. I believe that that is the case in Southampton. The case for a return of powers is based not simply on sentiment and historic identity, although historic identity and pride in it are important to us, but on a confidence that good local government with a clear-cut set of responsibilities, which is close to the people, can be most effective in shaping the future of the city.

The period between 1975 and 1984 was stagnant for Southampton. The Conservative-controlled council did little or nothing as jobs in traditional industries slipped away. The election of a Labour council in 1984 coincided with, and, I believe, helped to lead, a real revival and transformation in the city. I say "helped" to lead, because I am under no illusions that the role of councils is not just in the direct services that they provide, but in the quality of the partnerships that they build with other organisations and with other parts of the community, which constitutes real leadership of a city. That has certainly characterised my city over the past 10 or 11 years. In that time, the old docks have been opened up for leisure and housing. We have seen significant new retail, office and industrial developments. New hotels have been established. New arts centres, the Mayflower theatre, the Gantry and the Harbour Lights film theatre have been built. The city has come alive with film, music and other festivals. There has been a significant expansion of community and sports facilities. The city council has worked closely and consistently with the private sector and the business community to build strong links with the European Union and the Russian federation. The council has worked particularly closely with neighbouring authorities, such as Bournemouth, Poole and Portsmouth in the south coast area, which will be important in developing our regional economy and its links with other parts of Europe. It has worked closely in partnership with housing associations to build new social housing, and with the private sector to open up flats above shops. It has one of the most successful records of any authority in the country.

We also have much to look forward to: a £250 million retail development in the city centre; I hope very much a new stadium for the Saints; a major expansion of the marine science and engineering industry, based, I hope, on the existing skills in the local economy and the new department of oceanography, which will move into its new building in the docks in the autumn; and, of course, the continued expansion of higher education at the university, at the Southampton Institute and the La Sainte Union college, which, as they have expanded, have played such an important part in the life of the city in the past five years.

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What is important is not only the partnerships that have been formed but the style of local government, which has built public confidence in the future of the city. In particular, there is a deep commitment to decentralisation and devolution of power. Over the past few years, there has been a major expansion in the role of tenants organisations, so that they are not only consulted but are key players--for example, in determining matters as basic as the level of rents in the local council housing service, and in many of the issues on the local estates. Every area of the city is covered by community forums, which give local people direct access to council officers and the right to work with them without having to go cap in hand or with the leave of the local councillor to change and shape local services. I believe that that is the style of local government that will be appropriate to Southampton in the future.

It would be wrong to suggest that the relationship between Southampton and Hampshire has been poisonous, or one based on a total lack of co-operation. There have been many issues on which there has been good co-operation between the two authorities. I recognise that entirely. There have, however, been tensions, which I hope will diminish in the future. As the majority of members of the county are from rural and suburban areas, there has often been a difficulty for the county in recognising exactly what needs to be done in the major cities if they are to play a powerful and central role as regional centres for the local economy. There has been a failure to understand, most recently in the discussions about the Saints football stadium--the community stadium--the importance of such a development for the identity of a city: it is not just a place in which a premier league football team can play.

Problems have been caused simply by remoteness. Hampshire has 1.5 million people, and in an elected authority that means that the elected members are too far away from the people whose interests they are supposed to serve to have a real hands-on feel for what is happening in local decisions. The reality is that many of the decisions in Hampshire have been taken by local government officers who are quite removed from the local communities that they serve and from the members to whom they are nominally accountable. Although many of them are excellent professional officers, I believe that working under the guidance of a local authority that is much closer to the people will improve the quality of the services.

Mr. John Carlisle: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that his local council is fully supportive of the move of Southampton football club to the site that it envisages?

Mr. Denham: If the hon. Gentleman means 100 per cent. of the members, that would be wrong, but an overwhelming majority of the city council is supportive, including all of the Labour group--the ruling administration--and two thirds of the Liberal Democrat group. Between them, that constitutes something like 36 out of 45 councillors. The proposal has had overwhelming support from the city council, and we have been very grateful for the firm affirmation by the Secretary of State for the Environment that the site chosen is the best site available in the local area.

The final problem in the relationship between the city and the county is one with which all Members whose councils have a two-tier structure will be familiar: the

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sheer duplication. It is extremely difficult to explain to a local community why it takes two councils to paint a yellow line on a road, and often two to repair a pavement and to introduce a traffic calming scheme. The city looks forward to having new powers over education and social services and delivering those services in partnership with schools, voluntary organisations and the social services structure. I should like to make a few comments about the problems that could be faced in the next two years. The arguments on the finances of the transition can go both ways. It is difficult to establish whether there will be a cash saving or a cash cost. The differences are at the margins of local government expenditure. In my view, the value for money that we shall seek from the change is not so much cash savings as the spending of funds more efficiently and more closely to the priorities of local people than happens under the existing two-tier structure. That will be the challenge for the new authority. Southampton city council will have to show that, working with the resources that it has, it can deliver services that are closer to what the people of the city want.

I am worried about what will happen in the next 18 months. The county council is desperately short of finance. I do not have fears, certainly on the present evidence, of the scorched-earth policy in Hampshire county council of which some hon. Members have spoken. However, this year it had to make cuts of some £20 million. Although the Minister may say that there is no budget settlement for next year, on current trends the council will have to make cuts of about £38 million.

Serious reductions in services, such as the abolition of the school meals service, are being contemplated by the county council. It would be a serious problem for the residual county council and for Southampton and Portsmouth if such damage was done to the quality of county services in the next year, that the new authorities were perceived as starting out with a lower level of services in 1997. I urge the Minister to examine those issues carefully when the budget settlement for local government is made next year.

It is important that the transition can take place in a way that ensures that there is a straightforward handover of services to the new authorities. Declining services and low staff morale should not be inherited by the new unitary authorities because that would make the job of establishing them much more difficult than needs to be the case. I hope that those issues will be taken on board seriously in the autumn when the budget settlement is reached.

6.52 pm

Mr. John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West): My constituency of Bournemouth, West comprises almost half the borough of Bournemouth and a significant part of the borough of Poole. I know from my consultations with people in both boroughs that an overwhelming majority of the residents warmly welcome the orders before us this evening.

There has been considerable tension for many years between the urban area which comprises the south-east conurbation--primarily Bournemouth and Poole --and the rural county that surrounds it. There has been for some time a feeling that many of those elected to serve in the rural county have little understanding of the needs and

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problems of an urban area and vice versa. That inevitably has created a certain tension. That tension has probably been more acute in Bournemouth than anywhere else.

Bournemouth previously had a proud tradition as a county borough. It ruled itself successfully and became a prosperous leading resort in the United Kingdom while it was a county borough. Therefore, there was considerable resentment when in 1974 it was plucked out of Hampshire and thrust into the rural county of Dorset, largely to provide rate product for an impoverished rural county. From then on, Bournemouth felt that its needs and concerns were not met within the county of Dorset.

However, a modus vivendi was established. It was always rather tense, but never more tense than it has become in the past couple of years since the county administration has been controlled by the Liberal Democrats. It says something for the strength of local feeling against the incompetent and insensitive administration that we now have in county hall that councillors of all

parties--Conservative, Labour, independent and even the Liberals--in the boroughs of both Bournemouth and Poole are unanimous in their wish to escape from the grasp of the county administration run by the Liberal Democrats. It is hardly surprising that that should be so when one considers the record of incompetence that we have had to suffer in Dorset under their rather malign administration.

Mr. Rendel: Does the hon. Gentleman feel that the results of the local elections this year demonstrate that people have turned against the Liberal Democrats in Dorset?

Mr. Butterfill: I can only speak for the results in my constituency of Bournemouth, West, where we won a seat back from the Liberal Democrats. That fairly conclusively shows what the feeling is in my constituency.

It is true that the councils are united in their wish to escape from the grasp of the Liberal Democrats in county hall. It is true that the administration is incompetent. It is true that it is cutting services throughout the county and claiming that the cuts are the result of Government cuts. I have here a leaflet which says that reductions in library hours are due to Government expenditure restrictions. That is despite the fact that the Government grant to Dorset has been increased by almost £12 million or 4.7 per cent. in the current year. That is almost double the average for county councils.

The reality is that Dorset county council is spending more than £24 million above Government recommended levels on capital expenditure to build new schools to fulfil its election pledges, which were mind-boggling. They were simply bribes to the electorate. In order to fulfil those pledges, the council has had to cut all the other services. For example, it has cut the social services budget dramatically even though it has had a substantial increase of 12.6 per cent.--£8.8 million last year and £8 million again this year. It is blaming that on the Government.

Dorset county council has even cut the education revenue budget, the library budget and the fire service budget. It is spending huge sums of money that it has gained from the sale of assets. It has just agreed to sell--thank goodness--our local airport. The receipts from the sale will be about £7 million. When challenged to say whether it would use some of that money to restore the cuts that it made in social services, it declined to do so simply because it wants to keep its irresponsible election

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pledges on the building of new schools. Of course we all agree that we want to build new schools, but not all at once or all in one year.

Therefore, we shall be very pleased to escape from the grasp of Dorset county council. It claims to be a competent and responsible administration, but, in education spending it spent £660 per pupil per annum on central bureaucracy, which is more than most other shire counties, even though Dorset is assessed by the Department for Education as having one of the lowest needs to spend.

The root of the problem is that Dorset county council is incompetent. That is why we in Bournemouth and Poole will be glad tonight to escape from its grasp. We warmly applaud the orders. 6.58 pm

Mr. George Stevenson (Stoke-on-Trent, South): Someone said--the name escapes me for the moment--that a week is a long time in politics. [Interruption.] I hear one of my hon. Friends saying that it was Lord Wilson, who has sadly died. So 23 years can qualify as a long time. That is the period during which the people of Stoke-on-Trent have been campaigning for a return to their former status as a county borough. Therefore, the order covering Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent is extremely welcome.

One reason--by no means the only reason--why the people of Stoke-on-Trent have been campaigning for a return to their former status since 1974 is that that reorganisation has never been understood or accepted. If a local government structure is not accepted after all this time by the people whom it purports to represent, it is fatally flawed. We welcome the fact that after 23 years, albeit a long time, the Government have brought forward the order this evening.

The order is also welcome because the former county borough of Stoke-on- Trent had an excellent record in the provision of services. For example, nursery school provision in Stoke-on-Trent is by far the best in the county of Staffordshire. That is not because of developments that have taken place since 1974, because there have not been any. It is because the former county borough of Stoke-on-Trent placed nursery education at the top of its agenda and spent its resources accordingly. Stoke-on-Trent has excellent nursery services because of the actions of the previous county borough.

Despite the best efforts of Staffordshire county council and Stoke-on-Trent city council during the past 23 years, the present system simply has not worked. Therefore, we welcome and support the order. However, I have one or two points of concern to put to the Minister.

Before I do so, I refer briefly to the forensic analysis of the situation in Stoke-on-Trent by the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel). The swathe of knowledge displayed by the hon. Gentleman about Stoke-on-Trent was staggering. It was exceeded only by what must be the most arrogant speech that I have ever heard in all my time in politics.

For the record, Staffordshire county council supports the change, Stoke-on- Trent city council supports the change, and business, industry, voluntary organisations and the people of Stoke-on-Trent support the change. The

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management of the Wedgwood factory, which is just outside Stoke-on-Trent, is so impressed with the unitary authority that it fought hard for the factory to be included in the unitary authority of Stoke-on-Trent and I am pleased that the Government accepted that.

All the political parties in Stoke-on-Trent support the change. In year after year of fighting elections in Stoke-on-Trent, the election addresses of all Labour candidates have included a pledge to continue to campaign for the restoration of powers in Stoke-on-Trent and the creation of a unitary authority.

Yet the hon. Gentleman has the temerity to suggest that the people of Stoke -on-Trent have not been consulted. Where does he think that we have been for the past 20 or 30 years? Does he really think that when we go back to our constituencies we sit in a little corner and make up our own minds? Will he at least have the good grace to accept the possibility that, as constituency Members of Parliament, we talk to the people whom we represent, or has that thought not occurred to the hon. Gentleman?

In the May elections this year, a continued commitment to and welcome for unitary status in Stoke-on-Trent was put on every Labour party election address and we won all the 20 seats available. That shows that the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that the people of Stoke-on-Trent have not been properly consulted and do not want the change is not only misplaced but arrogant in the extreme. If the changes are to work--we all want them to work--there must be the maximum co-operation between the county council, the city council and the Government during the period of transition. The maximum amount of flexibility is needed to ensure that the change is made as smoothly as possible in everyone's interest so that the new authority can begin to work as effectively as possible from the day of the change.

Stoke-on-Trent already has in place a system of consultation and liaison between Staffordshire county council and the city. Progressive plans have been laid for the future which show the determination of Stoke-on-Trent city council to carve out a successful future for the area, and that despite the fact that the area has suffered enormous job losses as a result of pit closures, the halving of employment in the pottery industry, and so on. There is a need for considerable investment in the area.

The Government have an important role to play in the provision of such investment. The city has plans for private and public investment, but we desperately need the Government to be as flexible as possible in the provision of resources so that the great challenges that Stoke-on-Trent will face now and as a unitary authority can be effectively addressed.

There are two particular matters concerning resources that I wish to put to the Minister. The first reiterates a plea that has already been made by a Conservative Member for the relaxation of capping levels. If the Government simply transfer the present capping regime to the new unitary authority, not only will that show how damaging the capping regime has been previously, but it will be catastrophic. I hope that the capping regime will go, but that may be asking too much of the Government. At the very least, the capping regime should be examined and some flexibility shown.

The second matter relates to standard spending assessments. There is particular concern in Staffordshire, and certainly in Stoke-on-Trent, about the area cost

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adjustment element of the SSAs. Representations on that have been made to the Government and I think that they have accepted that the area cost adjustment element is discriminatory and has to be reviewed. I make the plea this evening that if the new unitary authority in Stoke-on-Trent goes ahead with the same discrimination built into the SSAs on education and other services, it will remain at a distinct disadvantage compared with many other areas. We need assurances that the Government will take action on the area cost adjustment element of SSAs as they affect the new unitary authorities and as they will continue to affect the remaining county council. I was a little worried when the Minister, in response to questions from two of his hon. Friends earlier, said that the Government intend to bring forward orders that will debar county councillors who retire at the end of April 1997 from having any input into the budgetary process before their retirement. I did not know of those plans, but they highlight a number of important issues.

I appreciate the Government's concern about budgetary considerations affecting the residual county council in the year following the transition; but such arrangements should not prejudice a fair distribution of resources from the county to the unitary authorities. We need an assurance from the Government that any move to deprive Stoke-on-Trent city councillors of an input into budgetary provision will not compromise a fair transfer of resources from county to city.

I assume that, during the transition period, the Government will be prepared to consider representations from the "shadow" authority, through its Members of Parliament, just as they would consider representations and delegations from the previous authorities. The orders are warmly welcomed in Stoke-on-Trent, and I am sure that--despite the Liberal Democrats--they will be strongly supported this evening.

7.10 pm

Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury): I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, the Member for Hertfordshire, West (Mr. Jones), on his promotion. I also thank him and the rest of the ministerial team for the patience and courtesy that they have shown throughout a controversial debate in Buckinghamshire about the future structure of local government in the county.

Many different opinions have been strongly expressed in the debates that have taken place over the past couple of years. I confess that, at times-- representing, as I do, a constituency that not only falls within the county council area but includes parts of three district councils--I felt as though I was in the line of crossfire between opposing trenches. Despite the strictures levelled at the order by the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel), I believe that we are now discussing the reasonable outcome of that debate.

I appreciate that the hon. Member for Newbury may not have had time to study in detail the many Local Government Commission reports and orders on which he has commented. I think it fair to add, however, that the surveys conducted by or on behalf of the commission show a consistent theme: the majority of residents of the borough of Milton Keynes--between 50 per cent. and 60 per cent.--wanted an outcome that would give the borough unitary status. The controversy within Buckinghamshire centred on whether the area outside Milton Keynes should retain a two-tier system, as is now

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proposed, or should be divided into different unitary authorities. In my constituency, which includes the county town and nearby areas, there was a strong surge of opinion in favour of the status quo, but I should acknowledge that strong contrary views were expressed in other parts of the county--for instance, in High Wycombe and Beaconsfield.

A number of practical issues need to be tackled if the new structure is to be introduced smoothly. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, South-West (Sir D. Madel), I am concerned about the future allocation of standard spending assessments and about supplementary credit approvals. I also share his anxiety, and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle), about the position of members of the existing county council who represent wards which, after 1997, will form part of a new unitary authority.

My understanding of the order was that elected county councillors would continue to sit on the county council and enjoy full voting and policy- making rights until the next county council elections in 1997. That would imply that those councillors--in the case of

Buckinghamshire, those representing wards in Milton Keynes--would be able to participate in the setting of the budget for the financial year 1997-98, and hence in the determination of council tax levels for that year. Moreover, if--as I personally hope--the Government relax the present capping limits significantly, the potential difficulties created by that arrangement may well be aggravated. The position of Milton Keynes county councillors would not affect overall political control within Buckinghamshire, but I suspect that the circumstances would be different in other county councils where part of the county is being hived off as a separate unitary authority.

The Government have not yet been able to come up with a decision on the parishing of unparished areas, which was the subject of recommendations from the Local Government Commission. My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Mr. Butler) has asked me to remind the ministerial team that parts of his constituency--and parts of the new unitary authority of Milton Keynes--would, under the current arrangements, remain unparished, while most of the area would be subject to parish councils; and that that distinction would appear, in his case, to be based less on strict logic than on the historic pattern of the development of the new city of Milton Keynes. The Local Government Commission firmly recommended that Aylesbury, my constituency, should be parished, and that the proposed new town council should take over the civic responsibilities currently exercised by the charter trustees--and also act as a voice for the town, playing a role comparable to that played by parish and town councils representing the smaller towns and villages in my constituency.

I accept that Ministers must strike a balance. On the one hand, however, we need to find a way to allow the view of an authentic local civic community to be expressed in debates about planning, housing allocations and other matters discussed in the context of a particular district or county, while on the other hand we wish to avoid inventing a new system in which people are unnecessarily over-governed.

Those who responded to the commission's consultation exercise in Aylesbury said that they wanted a town council as a focus for civic identity, for ceremony and to

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