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Mr. Charles Kennedy: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the question be now put.

Mr. Norris: That was an interesting intervention from the hon. Gentleman, and seems to suggest that the Liberal

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Democrats have decided that perhaps this debate was not a good idea after all. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman hoped that we might glide smoothly into the area of health policy, so that the Liberal Democrats could then grab every shroud and follow every ambulance they can as they think up yet another farrago of nonsense which they can dress up as some commitment to policy.

The truth may hurt, but the reality is clear. Whether we are referring to BA, BAA, National Express, the privatisation of ports or--as my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale properly said--bus privatisation, the reality is that, in every case, privatisation and deregulation have brought substantial advantages.

It is extraordinary that we are debating this issue tonight. No serious economy anywhere in the world would move the kind of motion that we have seen from the Liberal Democrats tonight. The Russians are now perfectly clear that they believe in privatisation. In Nicaragua and El Salvador, one can hear the virtues of the free market expounded. But in Yeovil and in Ross, Cromarty and Skye, it is back to nationalisation and all its evils. One of my right hon and noble Friend Baroness Thatcher's greatest achievements was to set in motion a move towards the liberation of state industry which has been followed the world over, and with good reason.

We will go on to deliver the privatisation of rail services because that will liberate investment opportunities in a way unfettered by the public sector borrowing requirement. Privatisation will liberate management and will allow it, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South suggested, to offer rail services that have been removed by the nationalised railway. Private operators are keen--not just in Blackpool, but in many other areas of the country--to restore such services, and they know how to run them profitably.

A change is already happening in terms of the way in which the train operating companies are showing concern for customers--which is, of course, at the heart of the private sector. They are building a modern railway that is efficient and responds to customers' demands, and is not dominated, as the nationalised railway has been, by the producers rather than by the consumers. If hon. Members from both sides of this House want to see the development of a railway fit for the 21st century, they must reject the motion and support the Government amendment.

Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:

The House divided: Ayes 49, Noes 262

Division No. 201] [7.04 pm

AYES

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Column 802

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry

Beith, Rt Hon A J

Bermingham, Gerald

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)

Chidgey, David

Corston, Jean

Cunningham, Roseanna

Dafis, Cynog

Dalyell, Tam

Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

Ewing, Mrs Margaret

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Column 802

Foster, Don (Bath)

Harvey, Nick

Home Robertson, John

Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)

Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mo n)

Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)

Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)

Lewis, Terry

Livingstone, Ken

Loyden, Eddie

Lynne, Ms Liz

Mackinlay, Andrew

Maclennan, Robert

Madden, Max

Maddock, Diana

Mahon, Alice

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Column 803

Marek, Dr John

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)

Parry, Robert

Rendel, David

Salmond, Alex

Simpson, Alan

Skinner, Dennis

Spearing, Nigel

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Column 803

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Timms, Stephen

Tyler, Paul

Wallace, James

Wareing, Robert N

Wigley, Dafydd

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr. Archy Kirkwood and Mr. Simon Hughes.

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Column 803

NOES

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Column 803

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)

Amess, David

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Ashby, David

Atkins, Rt Hon Robert

Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)

Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)

Banks, Matthew (Southport)

Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

Bates, Michael

Bellingham, Henry

Beresford, Sir Paul

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bowis, John

Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes

Brandreth, Gyles

Brazier, Julian

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)

Browning, Mrs Angela

Bruce, Ian (Dorset)

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butler, Peter

Carlisle, John (Luton North)

Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Cash, William

Chapman, Sydney

Clappison, James

Clark, Dr Michael

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coe, Sebastian

Colvin, Michael

Congdon, David

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon Sir John

Couchman, James

Cran, James

Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)

Day, Stephen

Deva, Nirj Joseph

Dicks, Terry

Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Duncan Smith, Iain

Dunn, Bob

Durant, Sir Anthony

Elletson, Harold

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

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