House of Commons Hansard Debates for 13 Jul 1995

Column 1160

procedures. We are worried that bird smuggling will lead to the introduction of Newcastle disease, which could have a disastrous effect on our poultry industry.

I will not go into the details of spring viraemia of carp or viral haemorrhagic septicaemia and other such matters, as they are set out in the report. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will mention them in her winding-up speech.

We believe that the recommendations in our report, whether relating to the importation of farm animals or to protecting the United Kingdom from rabies, were based on a thorough assessment of the risks and that they constitute appropriate responses to the threat that is posed to the United Kingdom's high health status. We are disappointed at the Government's seemingly blinkered defence of the status quo with respect to rabies and quarantine and we hope that the new team will rethink the matter. The Government do not appear to dispute the facts on which our proposals are based, and we have detected a growing hint of acceptance in recent Government statements. Let us hope that that acceptance will grow a great deal more this evening. 7.57 pm

Ms Jean Corston (Bristol, East): As a member of the Agriculture Select Committee, I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on our report entitled "Health Controls on the Importation of Live Animals". The inquiry took place because of the need to remove barriers in a single market, but I think that every member of the Select Committee was determined to ensure that we should not use that as an excuse for relaxing health controls when importing animals into the United Kingdom, because over the years we have achieved very high health standards, particularly with domestic pets and farm livestock.

I was particularly concerned about the vulnerability of farmers who purchase livestock from abroad, as it seems that they will receive only a warranty and an indemnity against purchasing a sick animal. I believe that such a warranty and indemnity would not be enforceable in law, and therefore not worth very much. In that context, holding periods for livestock and coloured ear tags to identify imported livestock would prove a useful protection for farmers. For example, the Danes use coloured ear tags on imported pigs, and if the Danes can do it, I see no reason why we should not do so.

As the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Weston-super- Mare (Sir J. Wiggin), said, a great deal of the Committee's time was spent examining the rabies question. I began the investigation absolutely convinced that rabies was right, that we ought to keep it-- [Hon. Members:-- "Quarantine."] That quarantine was right. I apologise, and I thank my hon. Friends for putting me right.

I was absolutely convinced that quarantine had protected this country against rabies--a disease that all of us find utterly horrifying--and that at all costs our report should conclude with the recommendation that quarantine should stay. I make no apology for being persuaded by the evidence that I was wrong. A system of vaccination with an inactivated virus followed by blood tests would be much more satisfactory than quarantine and would serve the needs of pet owners and the general population.

Column 1161

In living memory there have been two cases of rabies in dogs in this country: one in 1969 in Camberley and one in 1970 in Newmarket. Both dogs had been through quarantine and developed rabies subsequently. I notice that the British Medical Association report, to which reference has been made, says that quarantine, which was introduced in 1901, has been effective since 1971. If a dog develops rabies after quarantine, we should first consider that indication of its effectiveness.

The other thing that I did not know about rabies was that there are two kinds. The kind that most of us are terrified of--the image of the dog salivating--is dog rabies, which is endemic in parts of the world such as the Indian subcontinent and, primarily, the southern hemisphere in Africa. In Europe, fox rabies occurs. In that context, the fox vaccination programme in the European Union was one of the aspects of EU policy with which I was impressed. With fox rabies, the dog which is bitten, if a dog is ever bitten by a fox--it does not happen often--is called the end host. The dog almost never passes on the rabies.

To people who are concerned, shake their heads or look puzzled, I say that there is no difference between fox rabies in a dog or a cat and fox rabies in horses, sheep and cattle, because all mammals are susceptible, but that does not stop imports of farm livestock. Nobody suggests that we should not bring in horses, sheep or cattle or that they should all be locked up for six months to see whether they develop rabies, because we think that the risk is so negligible that it is not worth considering. Yet we say that precisely such rules should apply to domestic pets. That inconsistency of treatment between domestic pets and farm livestock was one of the first reasons why I became uneasy about quarantine.

It is important to remember that the last known death of a human from rabies in Europe was in 1928 in France, and that since then excellent vaccines have been developed against fox rabies and rabies in humans.

Between 1972 and 1993, a total of 150,720 dogs and cats went through quarantine, during which time there were only two cases of rabies: one of a dog imported from the United States of America and the other of a dog from Zambia. Both had dog rabies from countries where dog rabies was prevalent. There was not a single case from areas where fox rabies was prevalent. That leads me to conclude that, although the risk is minimal, we obviously want to guard against it, but with a better system than quarantine.

I consider quarantine a blunt instrument. It costs approximately £1,200 to quarantine a dog. I note that the BMA discounts the possibility of smuggling and says that there is only anecdotal evidence of it. It is not anecdotal. The Chairman of the Select Committee gave the figures of detected cases, which amount to about 100 a year. That is probably the tip of the iceberg, because travel between the European continent and Great Britain is now much easier. The volume of traffic has increased enormously because of the channel tunnel and cross-channel ferries, and opportunities for smuggling have grown tremendously.

Sweden, a country which I admire, has been free of rabies since 1886. I think that it is right to say that the Swedish are as concerned about their health and their protection from the risk of rabies as we are. The Select

Column 1162

Committee went to see the Swedish system in operation. It was launched on 1 May 1994, it involves vaccination and subsequent blood testing to ensure that a dog is rabies-free, and it seems to be virtually foolproof. Seeing that system in operation finally convinced me that it was the way forward for this country. The Committee proposes a system which is better than quarantine. It involves microchipping or tattooing the dog or cat, vaccination with an inactivated vaccine, testing the blood for the effectiveness of the vaccine after four months and requiring that the animal is brought into the United Kingdom within a 12-month period with an import licence and an animal health passport.

As Select Committee members and people who are responsible for animal welfare and public health in this country, we want a better system and one that does not encourage smuggling. We have to set that, as I have said, in the context of the channel tunnel, the growth in ferry traffic and the fact that the single market provides for the free movement of workers. If people have a right to move between countries of the European Union for work, the question should then arise: what about those with domestic pets? How will those people behave in the face of Britain's quarantine system? That problem is not confined to service personnel; it affects many people's work, holidays and other situations to which I shall refer.

I congratulate the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on one achievement: it has had the most tremendous success in terrifying people about the risk of rabies. The placards showing the skull and crossbones at every port put the fear of God into everybody--they have certainly always terrified me, and were part of the reason why I thought that quarantine was a thoroughly good idea. During our inquiry, it was pointed out by a couple of experts from whom we took evidence that Britain was becoming the laughing stock in Europe on this issue, and I believe that that is true.

Although the risk might be minute and it is vital to have a safe and secure system, the issue of quarantine is important for certain groups of people. Recently, the House has been quite rightly concerned about civil rights for disabled persons. I ask hon. Members to stop and consider the case of guide -dog users. Guide-dog users cannot travel if they are British because if they leave the country with their dog they cannot bring it back until it has been quarantined for six months. That is ridiculous. There should be a system under which a dog can be protected from rabies, humans who have any contact with that dog can be protected from any risk and a blind person can enjoy foreign travel like the rest of us. I have concluded that our policy on rabies is a little like the man who used to go round snapping his fingers all the time. Somebody finally asked him why he was doing it and he said that it was to keep elephants out of the country. When it was pointed out that there were not any elephants in the country, he said: "It just goes to show how effective it is." It seems ludicrous to suggest that a policy that keeps out dogs, the ineffectiveness of which was shown in 1969 and 1970, should not be replaced in the modern world with a system that, with the free movement of people, provides for the protection of animals and public health.

Column 1163

8.9 pm

Sir Roger Moate (Faversham): The great privilege of serving on the Agriculture Select Committee was bestowed on me only a few months ago, so I carry neither blame nor credit for the report.

Throughout my political career, however that might be described, I have always been sceptical about Select Committees, but I have come to appreciate the quality and quantity of the work undertaken by the Select Committee on which I serve. I was most impressed by the commitment shown by its members of all parties and by their non-partisan approach to matters that are examined in the Committee's latest report.

I was also impressed by the professionalism of the staff in respect of matters of extreme technical difficulty and physical sensitivity. The work done by my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin) in conducting the affairs of a difficult lot with great humour, diligence and application was first-class. As with the report, a tremendous amount of high-quality work is done by the Committee and I was agreeably surprised. I hope that I may enjoy continuing to serve the Committee for some years.

The report's introduction emphasises how seriously the Committee's latest and other investigations are taken. The report is impressive, but I do not agree with its conclusions. Incidentally, although the report required a visit to Scandinavia, we also visited the quarantine station at Heathrow airport, quarantine kennels near Deal, a farm near Rugby, the Folkestone terminal and, inevitably, Brussels. I place that on record for the benefit of critics outside the House, because that is hardly a Cook's tour of exotic destinations. One criticism I have of Select Committee reports is that their conclusions are too general, too wordy and insufficiently politically challenging. In this case, the proposal to change quarantine policy is specific, clear and challenging--and in my view, totally wrong. I agree with the Government's response and look forward to hearing the reply of my hon. Friend the Minister. I welcome the Government's determination to maintain the existing quarantine system, and I am glad that policy is strongly supported in the powerful paper from the British Medical Association that was circulated to Members of Parliament earlier this week.

I do not ignore for one moment the powerful voices in favour of change. I read the Select Committee and British Medical Association reports thoroughly, but I can claim to have read the evidence only to the extent that the Chancellor of the Exchequer read the Maastricht treaty. However, it is an impressive dossier. I read carefully the impressive evidence from pet owners, who pay the price financially and emotionally. The stress of enforced separation for six months, or for ever in many cases, is a real factor that I do not disguise. The hon. Member for Bristol, East (Ms Corston) referred to the single market argument. The Conservative ex-MEP for East Kent, Christopher Jackson, presented a powerful report on the subject from the point of view of the European Parliament. I do not underestimate the dramatic progress made in Europe in controlling rabies and its elimination in many parts of the continent--a remarkable change in the life of our nation and of the continent. However, the European Union is enlarging rapidly to the east and will no doubt do so to the south, to the Mediterranean.

Column 1164

In a few years' time, the EU could have twice the number of member states. It would be a brave man or woman who asserted that those new frontiers will be as rabies-proof as the frontiers of the EU's present members. One welcomes the optimism that rabies might be eradicated in the EU by the turn of the century, but there are overwhelming arguments against the likelihood of that happening. Britain can be thankful that it is free of rabies, while Europe can rejoice that the disease is being defeated on the continent. We must not, however, lose sight of the horrifying nature of the disease. My hon. Friend the Member for Weston- super-Mare almost struck a note of complacency with regard to the nature of the disease elsewhere in the world. He said that the world has moved on, but the good research paper produced by the Library states:

"Worldwide, around 6.5 million people receive treatment every year after being bitten or scratched by dogs, and 33,000 people die each year from dog rabies."

As the hon. Member for Bristol, East said, most of those deaths occur in India. My point is that the world has not moved on that much.

The hon. Lady said also that she was frightened by the skull and crossbones posters at ports. That is a good thing, because--even if the Select Committee's recommendations are accepted--the threat of rabies will remain, from all the non-approved countries in other parts of the world. I hope that small and large ports throughout the country would still display skull and crossbones posters to stop the entry of rabid animals from the many countries that will not become rabies-free.

Ms Corston: The hon. Gentleman is aware that the Select Committee recommended that quarantine should stay in the countries to which he referred.

Sir Roger Moate: That was my point, so posters would need to remain and we would have to maintain justified public fear of rabies returning from other parts of the world.

My hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare referred to the horrifying nature of rabies. Anyone who doubts its effects will find in the Library paper a couple of pages that make gruesome reading. It is easy to understand why we are so concerned to ensure that there is not the smallest risk of rabies being reintroduced into this country.

I have often thought that our island status has given us the best of all worlds. It makes us a strong nation state and allows us to be one of the most international outward-looking nations on Earth. At the same time, our island status allows us to be insular when that happens to suit our purpose, which has proved a superbly successful bastion against rabies in particular. The quarantine system has not only worked remarkably well but has given the public crucial confidence--the belief that we are and can remain a rabies-free nation. That confidence is a priceless asset. If there were at any time a revival of the fear of rabies, which could be generated by fox rabies as much as dog rabies, there would be serious consequences.

Column 1165

It is proposed to remove that bastion and end the quarantine system and to replace it with a system of pet passports, chips and tattoos.

Ms Corston: Vaccines.

Sir Roger Moate: Yes, the pet passport is a record of those. I do not want to trivialise these techniques, especially as they are being used by other nations.

Sir Jerry Wiggin: My hon. Friend is perfectly right about the fear in people's minds. He is a well travelled man. Would he say that his friends in France and Germany ever talk about this matter, or worry about it, or take any medical precautions? The fact is that they do not.

Sir Roger Moate: I suspect that the issue would seldom be a topic of conversation because Britons travelling abroad have become so used to not taking their pets with them, as they know that they cannot be brought back here, that they have long ceased discussing it. My hon. Friend is right: only fox rabies is a problem in those countries, not dog rabies--but that is not the point. My hon. Friend himself said that the system that he is proposing is far more onerous and demanding than any that we apply to human beings, so he is not really suggesting free movement at all. The logic of his case is that there should be free movement, without controls or vaccinations. I do not want to trivialise or minimise the value of the pet passport, even though someone suggested to me earlier that it might mean queues of black labradors waiting to have their passport photographs taken. I realise that microchips are seen as a useful form of international control, but we cannot take tattoos too seriously, although the Committee seemed to do so. The Government point out that tattoos on dogs are hard to read and are easily altered.

My worry is that all these systems are easily susceptible to fraud and error. Documents are easily forged, and information for computers and microchips can be easily tampered with when it is being put in. Such systems require scrutiny at a very limited number of ports of entry. As I understand it, we do not have the structures to allow these inspections to take place.

I ask the House to compare these proposals with the certainty that the quarantine system gives us. The only element of uncertainty comes with smuggling, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for

Weston-super-Mare has already said, the new regime would be onerous and time-consuming--and there would still be smuggling. That possibility is not eliminated.

I suspect that most caring pet owners will not break the law and do not break it now. The fact is that six months' quarantine, although painful to some, is a system that gives the public great confidence that the disease is unlikely ever to re-enter this country. The BMA states:

"Although the risk of a rabid animal entering the country is small, the consequences could be disastrous . . . Changes to the British way of life . . . would be far reaching. All pets would require vaccination; everyone involved with work with animals would need to be vaccinated; and any bite or scratch from a sick animal . . . would have to be treated immediately. The well-known British affection for animals would have to be tempered by caution". Ms Corston indicated dissent .

Sir Roger Moate: One cannot deny that these would be the consequences. In the past, the spread of rabies was

Column 1166

prevented by the muzzling of dogs. It is noteworthy that one of the contingency plans of MAFF for the outbreak of rabies would be poisoning foxes with strychnine, at serious risk to other animals. No one in his right mind wants to risk that. It is a fair point to make to distressed pet owners facing enforced separation from their pets under the quarantine system that the pain, suffering and cost of the spread of rabies would be far worse for pets and people alike. I want to turn briefly to the question of risk, because that is what the argument is all about. How much greater would the risks be, if at all, if we abandoned the quarantine system and adopted the system of vaccination and microchips? It is here that I found the Select Committee's report and the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare least convincing.

He said that we could import a rabid animal, in certain circumstances, once every 31 years. That is the statistical consideration. I remember severe floods in the town of Sheerness in my constituency one Christmas in the 1970s. Several hundred houses were flooded, and we were told that it was a one-in-a-thousand-year flood. A week later, the same houses were flooded again, but we were told that that did not alter the statistics--it was still one-in-a-thousand-year flood. So much for statistical averages. I was therefore not impressed with the idea that only a very low risk is involved. I believe that, when the system was changed in Finland to one similar to what is proposed by the Select Committee, 10 times as many animals were imported to the country. Given the pet-loving nature of our nation, I suspect that there would be a huge increase in the number of pets brought to this country as well. The risks must therefore be seen in the context of a tremendous increase in the numbers.

It is easy to say, as the Committee does, that these risks would be small; but I prefer the verdict of the BMA, which says that one case introduced into a susceptible population may be enough to start an animal epidemic. I do not know why we should change a system that works and which brings with it so much confidence.

When it comes to foodstuffs, pesticides, herbicides, nitrate levels and organophosphates, we are told by the scientists that we should take no risks whatever. I remember the recent carrot episode, when it was discovered that one carrot in thousands might have too high an accumulation of something unpleasant. The whole system had to be changed, and the British population was warned to top and tail its carrots before eating them raw. The margin of safety had been reduced from 100 to 93--a minuscule change, but apparently we must not take risks with carrots. On the other hand, it seems that we can with rabies-- [Hon. Members:-- "Come on."] It is the same. If we take the scientific advice, we should have to decide that, if there is any risk at all in removing the quarantine system, we ought not to remove it. Most of us fear the rabid fox more than we do the carrot. The Committee went wrong by failing to understand the incalculable value of the sense of security that has been achieved by current procedures: they work and they inspire confidence. Pet owners going abroad know the rules. Over the years, the British people have come to accept the system. Of course there are many who do not like it, but it is seen by the vast majority as an effective system. Preventing rabies from re -entering the country must be our paramount object. It is only when rabies has

Column 1167

been virtually eliminated around the world- -diseases are being eliminated around the world--that we can contemplate abandoning our unique advantage of the ocean barriers which have allowed us to operate a highly effective quarantine system.

8.28 pm

Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall): I beg to move,

That Class III, Vote 3 be reduced by £1,000 in respect of subheads B2 and D2 (Taking action against diseases with implications for human health (PP2): current costs).

I am sure that hon. Members will recognise that our amendment is merely a device to underline the urgency and sense of frustration that a great many right hon. and hon. Members feel about some very difficult questions. Indeed, if the rules of the House permitted it, we would seek to increase the sum available for this purpose, not to decrease it.

I want to touch on rabies only briefly, because I want to discuss three other matters of concern to a large number of hon. Members. I also want to mention BSE, bovine TB, and sheep scab and blowfly. I do not do so as my party's spokesman on those issues, because there is a great deal of cross- party, non-partisan concern and interest. I have been fascinated to find that, on balance, I shall be on the same side as the Minister on rabies, and with the hon. Member for Faversham (Sir R. Moate), although I do not take such an apocalyptic view, which he appears to take, about the Select Committee's

recommendations.

On the other side, I notice that the hon. Member for

Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin) has the cross-party support of the Committee. There has already been an eloquent explanation from the hon. Member for Bristol, East (Ms Corston) on why Members have changed their minds on the subject. I am sure that we are all seeking the same objectives. We arrive at them, perhaps, by different means. I now deal with the Select Committee's report. I have the highest regard for the Select Committee--although I am not a member of it, and perhaps that increases my respect--collectively and individually. It has done the House a considerable service, not just with this report but with much of the other work that it has done. I believe, however, that the hon. Member for Weston- super-Mare, as Chairman, did not do justice to the arguments when he dismissed out of hand the concerns of the British Medical Association and the British Veterinary Association. I shall refer to those associations in a moment. My approach--I am quite frank about it--is that I wanted to be persuaded by the Select Committee. I would have been delighted to feel that we could move away from the present restrictions, because I am only too conscious of the concerns and the unfortunate effects that the present arrangements have on pet owners--not just service personnel, as the hon. Member for Bristol, East said, but the large number of people who now travel for work purposes and who find that they cannot take theirpets with them. We should recognise that the recommendations of the Select Committee will not solve that problem overnight.

On the BMA report, I shall quote from the guide that we have been given by the doctors, in which they say:

"Britain cannot tolerate any lowering in the standards of precautions for keeping rabies out of Britain, as the consequences of their being breached could be so great. Although quarantine is

Column 1168

very expensive for those individuals who use it, the costs of eradicating rabies, if this were actually possible, once it had entered Britain, would be very much greater."

I notice that the Select Committee, in its reliance on the Swedish example, is not followed by the BMA, which points out in its own report, published on Monday of this week, that the Swedes have not experienced, and did not expect to experience, a reduction or elimination in smuggling as a result of the change. The report says:

"A risk assessment of Sweden's then proposed vaccination system, carried out by the Swedish Board of Agriculture, concluded `It is by no means self- evident that smuggling will be reduced if the rules are altered' (from quarantine to vaccination and certification)." So let us not be fooled into thinking that even those who have the experience on which the Select Committee places such reliance really expected to stamp out smuggling or have experienced a reduction in it.

The BMA and the BVA have demonstrated to great effect the differing circumstances in different countries. They point, for example, to the prevalence and growth in the number of urban foxes in the United Kingdom, which is totally different from anything experienced in the Scandinavian countries referred to in the debate.

In the circumstances, we have to take seriously the misgivings of the professionals. It is wrong simply to sweep them aside as if they did not matter, or to say in the words, I think, of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours), "Oh, well, they would say that, wouldn't they? They have a financial interest." That reduces the value of the debate, and we have to take seriously what they say. The BMA says of a rabies epidemic that there would be

"massive killing of wildlife in affected areas, muzzling of dogs, keeping cats housebound and killing strays."

That is not a prospect that any of us can consider with equanimity.

Sir Jerry Wiggin: I did say, although not today in the House, that I was suspicious of the motives of the BVA, and I did imply that there might be some financial incentive in the quarantine system. I am convinced that that is not true and that is wrong, and I wish to withdraw it publicly. Indeed, if our system were to be adopted, I suspect that the veterinary profession would gain handsomely from the work involved in vaccination and certification.

Mr. Tyler: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. It was actually an Opposition Member who made that suggestion this evening. It is precisely because I think that the hon. Gentleman and his Committee have taken a level-headed approach to the issue, and I sympathise with it, that I regret the fact that they were rather dismissive this evening of the misgivings of the BMA and the BVA. I am with the Minister on this issue. I hope to demonstrate to her that, on this issue at least, I take a non-partisan view.

Sir Roger Moate: It is very courteous of the hon. Gentleman to give way. He suggested that I was being apocalyptic. In fact, I was quoting from the same sources as he is and used almost exactly the same words as those that he has just used.

Mr. Tyler: I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman made, but I still think that perhaps he

Column 1169

overplayed his case. On balance, this is not the right time to make the change. I understand that to be the position of the Ministry. I now deal with BSE, bovine spongiform encephalopathy--I think that I have just about got it right--or what most people call mad cow disease. I ask the Minister, as this is the first opportunity that we have had to do so, to explain precisely how the Ministry views the changes in the arrangements that have been announced in the past few days. We have all assumed that the ban on the use of potentially affected parts of animal carcases in feedstuffs was the essential element in our protective system, and that once they were out of the food chain, we could look forward to a substantial improvement in the situation. That has been the accepted wisdom of the scientists who advise the Ministry, and, indeed, Members of the House.

However, the EU Commission's decision this week to change the arrangements, apparently under pressure from the German Government, raises some difficult questions. We are told on the one hand that it raises questions about the scientific basis on which our Ministry has been operating. It suggests that perhaps there is some way in which the disease can be inherited from cow to calf--otherwise, how can the Commission possibly justify changing the date- -or, alternatively, that somehow the possible sources of the disease have remained in the food chain for longer than was previously anticipated. I hope that the Minister will reassure us on that.

I notice that the Meat and Livestock Commission had at least two views on that last Thursday. One veterinary officer was saying that it would make it easier to export from this country to other member states in the European Union, while another was saying that only "a sea change in the attitudes of German consumers to beef" would result in any change in the export situation.

The critical issue, surely, is: are the policies, to which we refer in our amendment and which we are debating tonight, still as scientifically and intellectually substantial? Can we rely on them in the same way as we have in the past, if, as seems likely, the EU has changed its stance and raised questions about the matter? We need to know whether our Government are satisfied with the integrity of the scientific thesis on which they are operating, and if they are not, is it just German protectionism in disguise?

I now deal with bovine tuberculosis. The Minister and I had a brief exchange on that at Question Time last week and she has been kind enough to write to me since. I wish to make it absolutely clear that I do not pretend to be an expert on this subject; no doubt other hon. Members are more expert than me. I look to the Select Committee--it has done a very good job on many subjects, including the import of livestock--as being the only effective mechanism that we have to get evidence from a wide range of different interests where clearly the reputation and credibility of the Ministry are in question, and they are in question.

I recall a briefing by the Minister's predecessor, which I have no doubt other hon. Members recall, on the subject of TB--it must have been two or two and a half years ago--when we were given to understand that there was real confidence that a change in the Ministry's policy in terms of live testing would not eradicate--we would not

Column 1170

expect that--but would dramatically change the situation. We were all given real confidence that that would be the case.

We have to look at the figures. We can dispute the exact scale of increase. The Minister has been kind enough to point out that the extrapolation of the figures that I gave the House last week would imply a steady rise over the year, and that may not be true. I accept that. But the Minister has also been good enough to say:

"I am very worried about the incidence of bovine tuberculosis . . . the cause of that is badgers."--[ Official Report , 6 July 1995; Vol. 263, c. 505.]

If that is true, I have to tell the Minister that an increasing number of farmers no longer believe it. I have had examples in my constituency, which I have brought to the Minister's attention, where the testing of badgers produced no results, where there is no obvious badger activity in the immediate surrounding area, where the animals have not had contact with other neighbouring farms, where there are few visitors to the farm and where it would seem that there is no obvious connection between a contaminated badger sett and an outbreak of TB. There are several examples of that, and farmers are as worried about it as anybody else. Yet the system relies entirely on the assumption that the circle of infection is due to badgers, as the Minister said again last week.

The hon. Member for Glanford and Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) may be equally positive that badgers are not to blame, but I am more sceptical. [Interruption.] No doubt in due course the hon. Gentleman will put his view. I am an agnostic. All I do know is that dairy farmers and the animal welfare groups do not believe that the Ministry can continue with the present policy without independent objective analysis from outside the Ministry. It cannot remain judge of its own case for any longer.

It is for that reason that I have urged the Ministry to accept the need for such a study. If it can be included in the Select Committee's currently projected studies into the dairy industry, so be it, but if it has to be a separate study, I hope that the Chairman and the Minister will co-operate in some such independent objective inquiry. Otherwise, I cannot see how the two sides in the argument will stop their dialogue of the deaf.

In the meantime, I hope that no one is under any illusion about the substantial cost to the industry. I have here an example of a farm in Gloucestershire that was extensively analysed in a recent edition of Farmers' Weekly , where the estimated cost of the testing, direct movement restriction, changing farm policy, insurance costs and so on is £111,000. That is a net cost after compensation has been received. It is a huge sum.

The farmer, Mr. Rowe, says:

"MAFF is so behind with badger trapping that, in some cases, there is a six to 10-month gap between a breakdown and trapping . . . We shall have to turn our stock out on to pasture which is riddled with badgers that we know have TB. A badger vaccine, with food used as a vector, is the main answer. Otherwise TB in cattle will continue. MAFF knows the problem but it needs more funding from the Treasury."

There are other examples.

I am sure that hon. Members from dairy areas will be able to confirm that there is real concern about the lack of resources. Even if one accepts the MAFF thesis, the lack of resources means that there is a long delay before action is taken. I had another example at my advice surgery last weekend, of a farmer who was crying out for

Column 1171

live testing. Apparently, the veterinary service is prepared to provide it, but the lack of resources means that there is a long delay.

It is the responsibility of Members of Parliament to monitor, scrutinise and call the Government to account. That is the precise purpose of today's debate. I do not pretend that I have a solution to every complicated aspect of the problem. I certainly have not. A great many much wiser heads than mine have been applied to it. But what I do believe is that, just as the hon. Member for

Weston-super-Mare could claim that his Select Committee had approached in an open-minded and thorough way the problem of the import of livestock, it should be asked to look at this problem with exactly the same approach.

Finally, I come to the problems of sheep scab and blowfly and the products that are used to treat and prevent those diseases in sheep. The Minister has been kind enough to meet a small all-party group on a number of occasions, as did previous Ministers of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the right hon. Members for Norfolk, South-West (Mrs. Shephard) and for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer). I think that the Minister acknowledges that there is all-party concern. Here we have a problem where the animal disease that we are seeking to cure is not going away, but at the same time the apparently most effective way of dealing with it has the most horrendous side effects in terms of human health. The products to which I am referring are the organophosphorous compounds that are most often used in sheep dip to try to deal with those problems.

For many years, sheep scab was a notifiable disease. For many years, the Ministry effectively enforced twice yearly and then, for a few years, annually, the compulsory dipping of sheep. Suddenly, in 1992, without much warning, that was removed, either, according to one version, because sheep scab had been eradicated or was in the process of being eradicated, or because, according to another version, it did not seem to be doing much good as there was still a lot of sheep scab about. They were curiously conflicting arguments.

Whatever may have been the rationale then, the rationale now is surely inadequate. Since 1992--the Ministry has just issued some more information- -sheep scab has been on the increase. The Ministry has been monitoring carefully what has been happening in markets. It cannot give exact and detailed figures but, as a result, it is increasing sheep scab surveillance. The Minister has announced in my part of the world in the south-west that fines of up to £5,000 are possible for sheep scab-- not, it should be said, under the notifiable disease legislation, as I understand it, but under some environmental health or animal cruelty legislation. That is fair enough. Sheep scab is a serious disease.

But hon. Members surely cannot be satisfied when the Government are spending quite a lot of money, as is the industry, without achieving any improvement. All we are doing is causing a great many people the discomfort, cost and, potentially, the damage to their health, from a product that clearly is not the answer.

At the meeting with the Minister on 28 June, she undertook to examine urgently a number of specific issues affecting human health with her opposite number at the Department of Health. I hope that this evening she will briefly--I understand the difficulties of time--refer to the outcome of those discussions.

Column 1172

One of the issues that we specifically asked the Ministers to address was the apparent correlation of high suicide rates in some parts of the country, which appeared to follow closely on some of the areas where dipping with organophosphates was most prevalent. I have a letter here from one of the consultant psychiatrists who has particularly studied the problem, Dr. Davies, of the Avalon NHS trust based in Taunton. He not only draws attention to the weight of evidence, from his own experience and that of his colleagues, of a connection between sheep dip exposure and high suicide rates, but offers his services to try to improve the amount of information that could be available to the Department of Health on this specific issue.

In that letter, Dr. Davies says:

"I am sure that if dealing with a pharmaceutical agent, such a weight of evidence would result in its withdrawal from the market and I find it difficult to understand why the same criteria are not applied to environmental toxins. Every organophosphate exposed farmer that I have interviewed, whether as a NHS referral or part of my research activities, has admitted to intense episodes of suicidal ideation well beyond the `life is not worth living' stage." I hope that the Department of Health will take that evidence as seriously as I know the Minister does. I also hope that the offer to undertake additional research into the effects of organophosphates in terms of neuro-psychiatric toxicity will be taken up.

There are ways in which the Minister can respond proactively. For instance, we must return to some form of notifiable disease arrangement if the industry is to take sheep scab seriously. A return to the old compulsory dipping scheme will not be sufficient, however. I hope that a compulsory treatment scheme using the new products--the non-OP dips that are now available, and the injectables--will deal with the problem more effectively. Ironically, there is now a blowfly that is immune to OPs, while some humans at least seem to be sensitive to them.

We must recognise that manufacturers of new products will not be able to reduce the unit cost, allowing take-up to be effective in the industry, until some help is given with the transition. I hope that, now that it is recognised that the use of OP dips imposes considerable costs on the industry, the Ministry and, indeed, the health service, the Government will find a way of subsidising the transition to allow the withdrawal of those products and the introduction of new products that are safer for all concerned. I am sorry to have had to cover so much territory at such speed, but this is an unusual opportunity. I am grateful to the House for listening so patiently, and I hope that in due course the Minister will respond to all four of the points that I have made.

8.52 pm

Next Section

Home Page