House of Commons Hansard Debates for 16 Oct 1995

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employees than any other British industry. The British aerospace industry has a magnificent record in exports, but without the Eurofighter 2000 and the FLA it is conceivable that the industry will bite the dust some time early in the next century. Our great rivals, the United States companies, have fatter research subsidies and a bigger internal market. It is a wretched prospect for Great Britain not to be able to continue to manufacture complete aircraft. It would be awful if we were reduced to subordinate parts manufacturers. That is a real prospect if decisions are not taken by Ministers in the near future.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) made some remarks, with which I agree, about the speech at Blackpool of the Secretary of State. What I found astonishing about that outrageous speech was the presence and attitude of the British Prime Minister alongside the Secretary of State as he made it. I was astounded when I saw our Prime Minister leading the applause. I wondered what the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath), would have done had he been sitting alongside such a Secretary of State making such a speech. I believe that he would have pulled the plug. We have talked of Lord Home, who was truly a gentleman. I believe that, had he been sitting on the platform, he would have received that speech with icy contempt. Surely, all of us in the House will acknowledge that the Secretary of State did the defence industry and the interests of Britain a grave disservice.

8.28 pm

Mr. Henry Bellingham (Norfolk, North-West): For the past two or three years I have been hors de combat in terms of speaking in defence debates because I was parliamentary private secretary to the Defence Secretary. It is a great relief to be able to speak again in a defence debate. During that time, there have been tremendous changes, starting with "Options for Change" followed by the defence costs study. We have had a period of great instability. I believe that now we can look forward to a period of great stability. We shall soon be able to say that we have smaller, but far better, armed forces.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith) went through the forward equipment programmes for the Army. He mentioned Challenger 2, Apache and the AS90. He went through the forward equipment programme of the RAF and spoke about the European fighter aircraft. As for the Navy, he mentioned the landing platform helicopter, landing platform docks, Duke class frigates and the Horizon project.

Anyone who considers the defence equipment procurement programme will notice that there is a great deal on order, a great deal is arriving, and there is a great deal to look forward to. I therefore completely reject the remarks of some of my colleagues and some Opposition Members who said that the procurement budget has been very adversely affected. Quite the reverse is the case, and I am sure that, when the Minister for Defence Procurement replies to the debate tomorrow, he will say precisely that.

In my constituency, I have the chance to meet service men and women regularly, especially at RAF Marham. Marham is now a centre of excellence. It is the headquarters of the Royal Air Force's reconnaissance

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capability. At the moment, 2 Squadron is on duty in Turkey at Incirlik on Operation Warden. No. 13 Squadron is on standby to replace it. Day in, day out, 39 Squadron flies over Bosnia, with its high-level photographic equipment. Those airmen have very high morale because they have jobs to do and they get on with those jobs. If one looks round RAF Marham, as I do regularly, one sees for oneself the amount of investment that has gone into that air base during the past few years or so. Since the reconnaissance capability has moved there, two new reconnaissance intelligence centres have been built. There is now a mobile Tornado reconnaissance exploitation facility. I understand that, next year, a new tactical armaments squadron of 80 personnel will be set up at RAF Marham.

When one looks at any military base, one sees a great deal of change taking place, but much of it is in new infrastructure, new buildings and new tactics and techniques. If one goes down a road in my constituency one reaches RAF Sculthorpe, which has had a big question mark hanging over it for a long time, since the United States air force decided that it would be surplus to its requirements. I am very relieved that 24 Air Mobile Brigade will be using Sculthorpe as part of its training infrastructure, so it will not be too long before Apaches are flying in and around Sculthorpe. It will be a very positive military presence on that base. Our local regiment, the Royal Anglians, has been in Bosnia recently. It has been in Northern Ireland and wherever it goes, it distinguishes itself substantially, and follows in the traditions of the Royal Norfolks.

Like every other hon. Member, I had a chance to attend a VJ-day parade in my constituency. On parade were very many Royal Norfolk veterans who had been prisoners of war in the far east, and to see those men who suffered so much during that period of captivity was greatly moving. It was especially moving to notice the complete lack of bitterness or resentment. Of course those former prisoners will never forget, but I find extraordinary what they have forgiven already, and the extent to which they have got on with their lives. I also find it strange that although the Japanese Government made a small provision for the former prisoners of the allied powers--that was back in 1948--since then, nothing has been done although the Japanese economy has become incredibly powerful and strong. I do not think it is asking too much of the Government to put strong pressure on the Japanese Government to pay up just a little bit more to surviving prisoners of war and to widows of prisoners of war, because there are not many in this country and a small amount would go a long way to relieve their suffering.

Mr. Mackinlay indicated assent .

Mr. Bellingham: I am very pleased to see the hon. Gentleman nod his head, because I believe that there is all-party agreement on that issue.

The morale and the commitment of the service men and women who are based in Norfolk or who come to Norfolk is high. I often wonder what they think of politicians, and I believe that most service men and women are deeply cynical and sceptical of politicians. If they have a look at the Treasury Bench, they see a young Secretary of State who, within weeks of going into that position, found himself having to take very difficult decisions in Bosnia.

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Because of the competence and leadership that he showed on that occasion, he did himself no end of good and built up a great deal of support in the armed forces.

We have a Minister of State for the Armed Forces who is without doubt the most popular person in that job since the job was created and we have as a Minister of State for Defence Procurement a Member of Parliament who is probably the brightest person in the House, and someone of great competence.

Mr. Mackinlay: He does not have a seat, though.

Mr. Bellingham: He has very fortunately secured a nomination for a seat in Hampshire, which I am sure he will win handsomely at the next election, and he will remain in the job that he does so well after the election.

If those same service men and women have a look at the Opposition Front Bench, what do they see? They see four Members of Parliament who I think are committed, who are keen to do their best for the armed forces. However, I believe that they have difficulty in getting away from their past. One cannot run their names through the police computer, but one can run their names through the Hansard computer. If one has a look at the Hansard computer, one sees that they all do have a past.

Two of them, the hon. Members for South Shields (Dr. Clark) and for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett), were fully paid-up members of Labour Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. All four of them have signed various early-day motions in the past, on Nicaragua, attacking America.

Early-day motion No. 202 of December 1988, which the hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Martlew) signed, sympathised with the demonstrations in Malta and Australia against the British aircraft carrier Ark Royal because it was apparently carrying nuclear weapons. He has signed endless early-day motions.

We look back and we read speeches that those people made in the House. In 1986, the hon. Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid) was demanding that the Opposition proceed without delay in its national campaign against Polaris, Trident, cruise missiles and United States nuclear bases in Scotland. If one examines their past, one repeatedly finds previous convictions.

There were far too many signatures on wild EDMs, there was far too much support for zany, politically correct causes, far too much outspoken conduct in favour of anti-American organisations and too much in the way of misjudgment. However much their hearts may be in this now, one has only to point members of the armed forces at what those Members of Parliament have done in the past.

Mr. Corbyn: I am most grateful to the hon. Member for giving way. Before he gets completely carried away with his trip down memory lane of early-day motions--I could quote many back at him--perhaps he could tell us what the Trident submarine system is for, why this country insists on possessing nuclear weapons and against whom they are aimed. The public as a whole need to know why so much of their money is being wasted on these appalling and, frankly, useless weapons, which can do nothing but enhance the insecurity of the world.

Mr. Bellingham: I am very interested by what the hon. Gentleman says. He ought to have referred to the document that I have in my hand, which we are debating

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tonight, "Stable Forces in a Strong Britain", the defence estimates. It sets out the arguments for having an independent nuclear deterrent, for procuring Trident, in very great detail. I shall not repeat what is in the document, but I think that the hon Gentleman's questions should be addressed to the Labour Front-Bench spokesmen.

Those spokesmen ought to have a close look at a letter that was in The Guardian recently, from one Frank Allaun, who is president of Labour Action for Peace, and one Ron Huzzard. They were querying in great detail the announcement that the Government were going to spend money on the Eurofighter. They were asking questions about the Bowman contract. They were asking questions about the Trident contract and they were saying what the hon. Gentleman was saying. Their letter said:

"Who is the new enemy that justifies so much of this country's public expenditure being used for military purposes"?

It is not very difficult to look behind the facade of the Labour Front Bench and to see people such as the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) and his friends such as Ron Huzzard and Frank Allaun.

Dr. Reid: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I am sure that the whole House will appreciate the avid research that he has carried out to identify pacifists, conscientious objectors and anti- militarists. I commend to him page 25 of the biography of one of his colleagues, the Secretary of State for Defence. I shall briefly read two sentences:

"Malcolm Rifkind was the first Tory defence secretary never to have served in any of the armed forces, even as a conscript." Then it continues, on the basis of the evidence:

"Michael Portillo may well be the first former conscientious objector to be placed in charge of the nation's defences by a Tory Government."

Can we look forward to the Secretary of State being outed as a conscientious objector by the hon. Gentleman?

Mr. Bellingham: There are sinners around who have repented, and my right hon. Friend has obviously repented through years of service to his party and to his Government. However, there are people behind the hon. Member for Motherwell, North who have not repented; they are nagging at his shoulder and trying to undermine all that Opposition Front Benchers are doing. Whatever Labour Front Benchers say about their beliefs now, I remind them that, while it is very easy to give up what they have believed in the past, upon coming to office it would be even easier to give up those things which they have taken on board recently and in which they have said that they believe. However difficult the changes have been and however destabilising the last few years, members of the armed forces know that they can trust the Tories on defence. One of the reasons why they cannot trust Labour is that, in the past few years, we have seen Opposition Members waging a malicious and spontaneous campaign to undermine some of our military traditions. Time and again, Opposition questions on the Order Paper refer to service men and women and their sporting activities and official service residences, and to the boarding school allowance. The questions refer to officers in the armed forces who, for example, ski for their regiments, who play polo or golf on Royal Air Force bases and who might even enjoy a day's hunting in their own free time.

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The hon. Members for Wallsend (Mr. Byers) and for Leeds, Central have put down hundreds and hundreds of questions about extra-military activities, and those questions have cost the Ministry of Defence thousands of pounds to answer. I think that that reveals a "little Englander" attitude. I believe strongly that, if members of the armed forces do not have those extra-military activities, their morale will suffer. I do not think that it is any coincidence that those regiments that win the live firing contests in Canada or those units in Germany that take on other NATO forces and beat them hands down are the same regiments that win the European Army skiing championships and polo and riding competitions. If we take away those extra-curricular activities, we shall undermine the morale of the armed forces.

That is why, when push comes to shove--as it will at the next election--I think that members of all three branches of the armed forces will realise that they cannot trust Labour. That is why I do not intend to trust what Labour has said tonight. I trust what is in the defence estimates, and tomorrow night I shall vote with Her Majesty's Ministers.

8.42 pm

Mr. Llew Smith (Blaenau Gwent): I regard some of the criticisms levelled at Labour Front Benchers by the hon. Member for Norfolk, North- West (Mr. Bellingham) as compliments, and I shall probably refer to them later in my speech.

I believe that it is correct that one of the first issues that we should debate in depth after the recess is Government defence expenditure, which this year is about £21.5 billion. However, if we examine the total figure since 1946, we are talking about defence expenditure of about £990 billion at current prices. The Government's defence expenditure is one of the most important issues that we face.

The debate will highlight the shortcomings of many Government statements, which will surely follow in the months ahead, announcing cuts in public services and welfare benefits. Each time such cuts are announced, hon. Members should ask why they are necessary. How can the Government justify their present defence expenditure while they inflict savage cuts in public services upon which the most vulnerable people in our community depend? Do the Government not realise that investment in those services would make life far more civilised for not just the most vulnerable but for each and every one of us, while investment in the nuclear weapons industry destroys that opportunity?

That opinion is shared by many senior Labour figures who five years ago voted against the leadership's desire to slow down the pace and scale of the arms cuts. My hon. Friends and others wanted to see those resources redistributed to social priorities instead--and that is the argument that I am putting forward tonight. The victims of the nuclear arms race are not just the victims of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki but everyone who could have lived in a more civilised and dignified world if that money had been spent differently.

We should consider also the skills, talents, creativity and sweat that have gone into producing nuclear weapons for war. Those precious human resources could have been

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used to make life on earth far more dignified. We could develop medical science to combat horrendous diseases, find more efficient ways of feeding the hungry and develop energy forms that do not pollute but work in harmony with the earth. The list is endless. They are not mere dreams but a recognition of what is possible and necessary. A world that is threatened continually by a nuclear holocaust-- which we can only begin to imagine--can never be free. If our friend Bob Cryer had been alive today, he would certainly have participated in the debate. In 1981 he posed a question on that subject to which he did not receive an answer, so I am sure that he would want me to raise it again tonight on his behalf. He asked the Minister whether he could explain how nuclear weapons defend freedom and liberty when their use will be undertaken by a small elite and will lead to the mass extermination of the people of this nation and elsewhere. That question was not answered in 1981 and it deserves and demands an answer in 1995. My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Mandelson) later advanced an alternative view. In 1986 he was reported at a book launch as saying that at the next election there would be a choice between two versions of patriotism, with the Conservatives willing to spend money on the Trident missile system and Labour dismissing the nuclear deterrent as obsolete.

I was recently privileged to address a Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament rally in Trafalgar square. It was a privilege for me because CND--perhaps more than any other organisation--has campaigned consistently for a nuclear -free world. If any hon. Members wish to join it in that struggle--or if the membership of any of my hon. Friends have lapsed--they can do so by writing to 162 Holloway road, London.

The CND rally that I addressed was held to protest against French nuclear tests. One of the placards carried at that demonstration read "Liberte , egalite , fraternite " and those words were replaced with "Arrogance, selfishness and indifference". Those words apply not only to the French nuclear tests but to those countries and individuals whose actions in supporting nuclear weapons--sometimes in the name of freedom, national security or whatever slogan seems appropriate at the time--threaten our beautiful world.

Editorials in the Observer, The Independent and The Scotsman have admitted to being somewhat perplexed about recent developments. The Scotsman stated:

"There has still not been any satisfactory answer to the question why Britain continues to enhance its nuclear potential with the Trident missile system, at a time when the major nuclear powers are engaged in a process of cutting down on their arsenals. Even by its own logic, Trident is a system without a purpose . . . there is no potential aggressor against whom such a system could be used. Indeed, nuclear weapons in general have been signally unsuccessful in preventing conflict".

That was recognised as long ago as 1984 when Labour's NEC appointed a working party which published a sensible pamphlet entitled "Defence and Security for Britain". It included the following words of wisdom:

"We require a true defensive deterrence . . . a moment's thought would show that nuclear weapons which are the most provocative and aggressive weapons ever invented by man could have no part in such a genuine defence policy.

We can take our own independent stance of de-escalation. Cancelling the absurd and dangerous programme is one such step."

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Of course that was right. If nuclear weapons are a deterrent, by definition they should deter, but how have nuclear weapons deterred all the wars since the end of the second world war? It is estimated that 25 million people have died in those wars. How have nuclear weapons deterred the war in the Falklands, the war in the Gulf and the present conflict in the former Yugoslavia?

Even if I thought that there were enemies in other lands plotting some nuclear confrontation with us, I could never agree to the use of nuclear weapons. Although I am not a pacifist, I do not believe that I have the right to take away from my children and, I hope in years to come, my grandchildren the opportunity of avoiding the mistakes of our generation and creating a better world.

I am interested to hear whether both Front-Bench spokesmen are willing to make similar declarations, and if not, why not. The editorial I mentioned in The Scotsman concluded:

"In this year of all years--the 50th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki--Britain should consign Trident to where it belongs, to the past."

Others have arrived at similar conclusions. They include Sir Ronald Mason, the former chief scientific adviser to the MOD who chaired the working group that originally advocated Trident, and Sir Nigel Bagnall, former Chief of Defence Staff, who came out in opposition to Trident. The former Prime Minister, Baroness Thatcher, apparently told Field Marshal Bagnall that he was wrong to criticise Britain's heavy investment in the nuclear industry when he raised the matter with her as long ago as 1985. Field Marshal Bagnall was right then, and he is right today.

It is worth putting on record how a large nuclear weapons programme can get completely out of hand if Parliament is denied the right to retain close scrutiny over expenditure on a regular basis. It should not be forgotten that the financial cost of Trident will not be £11.682 billion, as quoted in the Defence Select Committee report, but a figure perhaps five times greater after operating, refitting and decommissioning costs are taken into consideration. I made that point in last year's debate.

Any hon. Member who doubts that should consider what Sir Ronald Mason pointed out--that the lower construction cost figure ignores the lifetime cost which he put at between £40 billion and £50 billion. Can the Minister explain the massive discrepancy between that figure and the MOD estimate of £17.7 billion? I was interested to read an answer given in 1981 by the then Defence Secretary, now Sir John Nott, who said that the cost of the four Trident submarines would be between £4.5 billion and £5 billion.

I wish to make some comments on the role and the problems of the MOD Atomic Weapons Establishment, now contracted to the American company Root and Brown. On 14 August, the MOD made available to hon. Members via the Vote Office a document entitled "The Atomic Weapons Establishment--contractual indemnities". That is not a particularly exciting title, but the contents make interesting reading. The document states that the MOD could not find a satisfactory private insurance company to cover the operation of AWE, so it asked Parliament to approve the extension of indemnities to AWE to the year 2000 in four separate areas.

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I object to the further attempt to dump on the taxpayer the cost of nuclear weapons and to my not being able to register my objection to the minutes, as they were made available to hon. Members during the recess.

Not only do the Labour party, campaigning organisations such as CND and Greenpeace and I have no faith in nuclear weapons, but neither does the insurance industry. In the past, some of my hon. Friends and I have often been critical of the insurance industry, but we know that it recognises a good deal when it sees one. Even the insurance industry has reached the conclusion that nuclear weapons are a bad deal.

I suggest that the Government have reached similar conclusions, or why did they choose to make the minutes available in the recess when there was no opportunity to debate and to scrutinise the figures? If no one has any faith in nuclear weapons, why do we not scrap them? At the end of the month, the International Court of Justice will decide the legality or illegality of nuclear weapons. If that is not a good enough reason to scrap nuclear weapons, 24 October is the 50th anniversary of the birth of the United Nations. What better way would there be to recognise that day and to celebrate that anniversary than to scrap nuclear weapons of war?

Earlier this year, the 170-odd member states of the

non-proliferation treaty agreed to extend that treaty indefinitely as part of a bargain whereby the nuclear weapons states agreed to show the utmost restraint in testing nuclear weapons before a nuclear test ban treaty was completed next year in order to convince non-nuclear states to agree to make the non-proliferation treaty permanent. China's restraint lasted for a full three days, and for France it lasted four months.

Since then, millions of people have signed petitions protesting against those French nuclear tests. Will the Minister take the opportunity to condemn those tests, and if not, why not? Some of my hon. Friends and I met the French ambassador to lodge our objections to the test. We asked the ambassador how the French could continue testing nuclear weapons. This also applies to the United Kingdom. How can we continue to maintain our nuclear weapons yet tell other countries that they should not go down the same road?

Does the Minister accept that, like the French, we are breaking the non- proliferation treaty by not engaging in meaningful discussions and negotiations towards nuclear disarmament as highlighted in the non- proliferation treaty? Our hypocrisy does not end there. Governments shed crocodile tears when they witness the victims of war abroad, but we often supply other countries with the arms to conduct those wars. The former Yugoslavia is a classic example.

I offer my congratulations to Professor Joseph Rotblat on being awarded the Nobel peace prize, having campaigned against nuclear weapons since 1944. The chairman of the prize committee said that the award recognised Professor Rotblat's campaigning work, but was also a way of highlighting the committee's opposition to not just French nuclear tests but nuclear weapons. The fact that the British Government launched the third Trident submarine last weekend is an insult to the Nobel peace prize and to the people of this world. I urge all hon. Members to vote against the defence estimates and, by so doing, to show their support for the winner of the Nobel peace prize.

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8.59 pm

Mr. Andrew Hargreaves (Birmingham, Hall Green): It gives me great pleasure to participate in this debate. I hope that the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Smith) will forgive me if I do not follow his particular path, which is profoundly and blindly misguided. However, the hon. Gentleman's speech was sincerely made, and I compliment him on it.

I identify with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir. G Johnson Smith) and with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) in respect of the Bett report. I hope that my hon. Friends on the Front Bench agree that, whatever the merits of some of Michael Bett's suggestions, it is one thing to run our defence services in a businesslike fashion but quite another to run them as businesses.

The pleasure of speaking in this debate is somewhat marred for me by the knowledge that this year's defence estimates represent a further fall in defence expenditure, from £22.32 billion to £21.72 billion, at a time when our commitments show no sign of easing but rather the reverse. The world seems a more dangerous and unstable place with each passing year. A simple analysis reveals that whereas in 1978-79 we spent 4.5 per cent. of our gross domestic product on defence, now we spend only 3.3 per cent.--a further fall of 0.3 per cent. on 1993-94. By comparison, we spend 13.4 per cent. of our GDP on social security--£90.6 billion or nearly four and a half times more, and half that figure, or nearly two and a half times as much, on health.

A nation that no longer has the will to find the funds necessary to defend itself is not a nation but a collection of communities. A nation that spends so much more on social security than on national security in its broader sense--I include part of the area that is the responsibility of my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary--is a nation that has lost its will to survive, not just its pride and sense of purpose in the world. That ultimately risks making the people of our nation the most healthy and well cared for slaves to other people's desires.

Despite that further fall in funding the White Paper emphasises that after five years' upheaval, retrenchment and cuts the Government are committed to a period of stability. The White Paper is helpfully entitled "Stable Forces in a Strong Britain"--a noble title if it could be but true. When my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary was Defence Secretary, he stressed

"the Government's commitment to inject a period of stability in defence planning and expenditure."

He went on to say that he had the Prime Minister's assurance that there would be no further budgetary cuts this side of an election or for a foreseeable time beyond. No less a person than my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave an assurance that the period of reorganisation and retrenchment was behind us and that we could foresee a period of stability in our fighting forces and in defence spending.

I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench will be able again to give that public assurance and that they will fight hard to ensure that those public undertakings--especially that of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's--will not be compromised by a Chancellor with apparently little interest in this particular area looking for further cuts. I repeat my right hon. and learned Friend's words:

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"to inject a period of stability in defence planning and expenditure."

No debate of this nature would be complete without mentioning our commitment to Bosnia and the dangerous but valiant work done by our forces there. Many of my hon. Friends have touched on that matter. My own doubts about the wisdom of our original involvement are a matter of record. I do not hanker after the failed League of Nations as Labour Members do. I see only British lads laying their lives on the line for humanitarian reasons, when no real British interests are involved and no side in that brutal and uncivil war is conspicuous for its humanity. Bringing our forces out safely again has worried me from the start and continues to do so. I am grateful for my right hon. Friend's announcement to the House that he will be able to bring back at least some of our troops.

However, the continuing need for our military commitment, which will perhaps become more pressing should the present ceasefire hold and develop, brings to light some operational aspects on which I should be grateful for comment from my right hon. and hon. Friends when they come to wind up. The first and most obvious, given the stalling of the peace process in Northern Ireland, is the pressure that that commitment is placing on--and the shortages it is highlighting in the strength of--infantry units. That matter has already been referred to by my hon. Friends the Members for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) and for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith). The pressure will be exacerbated by the slump in recruitment figures and I have no doubt that my hon. Friends will have devised a strategy to deal with the problem which I hope that they will share with the House. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has referred to the matter but some elaboration would be appreciated.

From a different perspective, Ministers will know that I was fortunate enough to spend some time, together with the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Ms Squire), with the Royal Navy as part of the armed forces parliamentary scheme. Some of that time was spent in the Adriatic. Does my hon. Friend agree that the need to provide timely air support over Bosnia, unfettered by the uncertainties of host nation support and the vagaries of the weather, has again shown the flexibility, mobility and reach of the Royal Navy's aircraft carriers, at least one of which has been on station in the Adriatic since 1983?

Would my hon. Friend like to take this opportunity to assure the House that he plans sufficiently to fund the Royal Navy to permit the eventual replacement of the Invincible class and its Sea Harrier jump jets which, though much modified, were designed some 35 years ago. Would my hon. Friend go on to assure the House that the impact on the Royal Navy of having a carrier, frigates, destroyers and support ships constantly on patrol off Bosnia has been addressed in the Ministry's plans to build new ships, not forgetting the replacement of Fearless and Intrepid for other duties?

My hon. Friend has reported that the Royal Navy's pre-eminent prowess in anti-submarine warfare may have slipped due to the demands of NATO and United Nations duties, which has meant that sailors spend up to 16 months in a two-year cycle away from home. Does my hon. Friend agree that the aircraft carrier Ark Royal, which I visited on its way to be mothballed in Portsmouth, might now be reactivated?

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I wish to make both a specific and a general point about procurement. As hon. Members know, such points often have constituency elements. I stand four square behind the Procurement Executive's value-for-money, best-for-the-job competitions and procurement decisions. A number of those decisions have been recently awarded to the American defence industry, some rightly so, and most recently, Tomahawk cruise missiles for the Royal Navy, the C130J Hercules replacement and more controversially, given the £200 million of taxpayer's money invested in Trigat, the decision to go for the Apache helicopter.

The history of offset is not one of which the Ministry can be proud and I question the way in which the two-way street with the Americans is working and the way in which the American Government have launched frankly scandalous anti-competitive protectionist legislation at Lucas for trying to compete in their market. That makes one question the wisdom of further invitations to tender from American companies. To hear that my hon. Friend's Department is now considering leasing American F16 warplanes gives great cause for concern to Conservative Members, too.

I hope that my hon. Friend will consider in any review the greater interest of the future of the United Kingdom aerospace and electronics industry as a major net exporter. He may also consider the loss to the MOD of the valuable export levy on UK-funded defence projects. I hope that my hon. Friend will think long and hard on these lines as he considers the replacement of the Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft or indeed the replacement of the Army battlefield communications system. He should not forget the way in which the Americans have treated British companies competing in their markets. Finally, on a constituency note, I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will reconsider the Army ambulance replacement order and consider well the overwhelming advantage of the revised Land Rover submission--not the original version tested but that based on the X- D, which has already satisfied the most rigorous testing and is likely to be the mainstay of the Army's light truck fleet in the future. It is cheaper to buy, cheaper to run in terms of fuel, lighter for helicopter lift and preferred by the medics who will have to work in it. To buy from a foreign supplier, from a formerly neutral country which has yet to be integrated into NATO command and supply mechanisms, would send all the wrong signals at a time when even the Germans, important NATO partners of ours, are already buying Land Rovers for Interior Ministry duty--and will possibly go further, given the change of ownership.

I should like to end on a strategic note which I have already mentioned in the past. I refer to the case already made by one of the Minister's predecessors for an anti-missile defence system to deal with the Club Mad brigade who might aim such missiles at us. I hope that tonight the Minister will be able to give us some assurance that serious thought is being given to this and that research and development are taking place to equip us with such a system in good time to meet any threat that may eventually arise.

9.10 pm

Ms Rachel Squire (Dunfermline, West): I am pleased

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to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves) and to support his comments about the Navy and the armed forces parliamentary scheme.

I have strongly agreed with those who have talked of the need to bring about a period of stability and to set a steady course for our armed forces and for the civilian industrial defence workers who have experienced massive change in the past few years. I too put on record my praise for all involved in the defence of our country and for the way in which our armed forces continue to set standards to which the rest of the world aspires. Wherever I have gone, to Plymouth, Rosyth or the Adriatic, I have found a strong feeling of insecurity among members of the armed forces--a feeling of anxiety not just about their families but based on uncertainty about the exact direction of the Government's defence policy and about precisely what role is envisaged for them.

I accept that we cannot just wave a magic wand and bring security and stability to the world, but I believe that we need a fuller debate on certain key issues such as the future roles of the United Nations, of NATO, of the Western European Union and of Partnership for Peace. We need, in short, a strategic overview.

I shall be brief because I am aware that some hon. Members have been sitting here for as long as I have today. First, I want to mention Rosyth naval base, which has had its full share of uncertainty and insecurity, compounded by the continual delay over the decision as to who the successful bidder for the base will be. I hope that the Minister will be able to give the base some good news, preferably by the end of this week, and that any decision will recognise that the site of the base is a public asset and that economic regeneration prospects should be considered alongside value for money.

Constant uncertainty has surrounded the future of both dockyards, which still await important decisions that have yet to be announced. So secondly, I would hope that the Minister can tell us today when he will be able to make an announcement; that by so doing he will be able to introduce some stability; that he will reaffirm the vital importance of both dockyards; that he will restate the workload guarantees given to both dockyards; and that he will reassure the work force that the promises concerning pensions and redundancy entitlements will be kept. I hope that he will state also that no change will be made to conditions of employment without negotiation and agreement.

That brings me to my third point, which concerns the whole future of our defence industry. The Government's refusal to adopt a specific industrial defence policy has chopped away work and led to economic devastation in defence-dependent areas. Are the Government prepared to recognise--they are, after all, the industry's major customer--that the defence industry is crucial both to our defence and to our general manufacturing base? Will they recognise that unless they act we may one day find ourselves without any competition, buying from a monopoly market and having no option but to buy off-the-shelf products?

Despite what is set out in the estimates some big questions still need to be answered given the turbulent world in which we live. The break-up of the Soviet Union and the eastern bloc has not led to more security. Russia is riven by all forms of corruption and internal conflicts. There are massive nuclear arsenals and there is the greatest fear about the extent of illegal export and

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smuggling to provide weapons to countries that none of us would support. We are seeing ethnic conflicts, territorial conflicts and social and economic tensions, as most horribly illustrated by events in former Yugoslavia. Events in that country have enlarged the future role and purpose of the United Nations and made more important the relationship between NATO forces and the UN as well as the dimensions of peacemaking and peacekeeping.

I shall be brief because I wish to make a few minutes available to other hon. Members. I think that we are likely in the post-cold-war world to be confronted by many more security problems. We have an opportunity to restructure Britain's defences but unfortunately the Government have heightened insecurity by their failure to undertake a strategic defence review. They have tended, especially with the defence costs study, to go for a short-term cost-cutting exercise rather than a review based on long- term rationale.

As I have said, the big questions remain to be answered. Let us go ahead and try to provide at long last some stability and cohesion for all who are involved in the defence of our country.

9.16 pm

Mr. Keith Mans (Wyre): I start by declaring an interest. I am a pilot in the RAF reserves and have been for the past 18 years. Before that I was a pilot in the regular RAF for 12 years.

It is worth reflecting on the reduced representation of the armed forces in the House. We could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of Members who are now in the reserve forces. Probably about 15 per cent. of Members have served in the armed forces, compared with over 50 per cent. about 20 years ago. I make that point because the armed services are in rather a special position. Unlike virtually every other body in every other profession, those who serve in the armed forces are not in a position to make their views known to the public when Governments change their minds and reduce the costs of defence or make various other changes. There is therefore a special responsibility on those who have spent time in the armed services to represent their views in the Chamber. The lack of representation and the lack of ability of the armed forces to make their views known more publicly partly explains the lack of outcry two or three years ago when we had the last round of defence cuts. I am not talking so much about "Options for Change", which was essentially driven by the need to make changes following the demise of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war. Although I did not specifically agree with some of the results of that review, I think that afterwards when further changes were made we got things about right.

I have in mind especially the two series of cuts that followed "Options for Change", the last of which has been termed "Front Line First". I would submit that those cuts were largely Treasury-led, not defence-led. They were Treasury-led two years ago in exactly the same way as other cuts were led 20 years ago under the Labour Government following the intervention of the International Monetary Fund. It is slightly ironic that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury two years ago is now the Secretary of State for Defence, because clearly he is now having to come to

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