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Mr. Alex Carlile: Will the Minister give way, or is he frightened to give way?

Mr. Richards: No. The hon. and learned Gentleman has had all the time I intend to give him and he has had his say.

I now wish to refer the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy to his party's so-called white paper on health, which was published in December. I understand that there was a public meeting on 10 January that health service professionals were invited to attend. I would love to know from the hon. Gentleman how many health service professionals, if any, attended.

The white paper referred to an awful lot of high-spending proposals, which, naturally, the hon. Gentleman, or the person who wrote it, did not cost. Fortunately, I was in a position to assess those costs, so I should like to run through one or two of the proposals that the hon. Gentleman has published.

The hon. Gentleman's white paper argued that there should be "wholly free" nursing home care. My estimate is that that would cost about £140 million a year. That white paper proposed that GP fundholding should be abolished and that all GPs and dentists should be salaried--the hon. Gentleman repeated that pledge in his speech. Apart from driving GPs and dentists out of the NHS, and probably out of the country, the cost of acquiring those practices would be about £100 million. That white paper also advocated the abolition of prescription charges, even though about 90 per cent. of people in many parts of Wales are exempt from them. That proposal would cost another £17 million, so that is another quarter of a billion pounds to add to the aggregate.

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That white paper also contained some other multi-million pound proposals which were totally uncosted, and which were even beyond my capability to cost. It proposed that there should be a new tier of health authorities to come beneath an elected Welsh Parliament, a health Ministry, principal health and social care authorities, health and social care authorities and, finally, hospital boards. Those five tiers of bureaucracy would lean down on our NHS and cost the earth--I cannot possibly assess how much.

The hon. Gentleman's white paper also suggested that junior doctors should work eight hours a day, 48 hours a week, which is an expensive item. It also called for the provision of extended community hospitals. I should love to cost that one, but, unfortunately, that white paper does not say how many extended community hospitals there should be.

The hon. Gentleman's white paper also suggested that community health specialists should receive new priority and increased funding--again, that was uncosted. The increase in the provision of services as a result of overlaps between health and social policy and health and housing policy also has serious cost implications to which the nationalists did not refer at all.

The joke of it all is that the proposals would be funded from 9 per cent. of the gross domestic product of Wales. The hon. Gentleman and his party have suggested that all those extra funding demands would be met by that 9 per cent. of GDP--they cannot even do their arithmetic. We already spend 9 per cent. of Welsh GDP on the health services and an extra 1 per cent. on social services. None of the wacky schemes in the white paper could possibly be funded out of that 9 per cent. of GDP. The required percentage of GDP would be even higher than that, so to the £23 billion I guess we could probably add between another £500 million and £700 million. It does not matter any longer because it is all the same as cricket scores, is it not? Opposition Members continually call for an independent Wales. Today, for a change, they called for a better deal for Welsh pensioners. But today has given us an insight into what life in Wales, with its own Parliament, would be like if Plaid Cymru had its way. It would be a case of spending as though there were no tomorrow--the taxes to pay for that would guarantee no tomorrow. There would be bureaucrats from Benllech to Bridgend. There would be interference in people's lives: restriction of choice and curtailment of individual freedoms. We would have an economy so burdened with taxation, regulation and government that business men would be queuing up to cross the Severn bridge--and, going that way, it would be free. Wales would witness a brain drain on an unprecedented scale. All this mayhem through the medium of Welsh-- llongyfarchiadau. But for the pensioners of Wales, there would be no escape. For them, Plaid Cymru's solution would be final.

What of new Labour? That one-man band, without the--

Mr. Llwyd rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to. Question put accordingly, That the original words stand part of the Question:--

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Column 923

The House divided: Ayes 25, Noes 129.

Division No. 223] [9.59 pm

AYES

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Column 923

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Ashton, Joe

Beith, Rt Hon A J

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)

Cunningham, Roseanna

Dafis, Cynog

Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth)

Foster, Don (Bath)

Harvey, Nick

Johnston, Sir Russell

Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mo n)

Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)

Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)

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Column 923

Kirkwood, Archy

Llwyd, Elfyn

Lynne, Ms Liz

McCrea, The Reverend William

Maddock, Diana

Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)

Rendel, David

Simpson, Alan

Skinner, Dennis

Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strgfd)

Tyler, Paul

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr. Dafydd Wigley and Mrs. Margaret Ewing.

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Column 923

NOES

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Column 923

Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)

Alexander, Richard

Amess, David

Ancram, Michael

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)

Atkins, Rt Hon Robert

Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)

Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)

Baldry, Tony

Bates, Michael

Bellingham, Henry

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Booth, Hartley

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)

Bowis, John

Brandreth, Gyles

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Sir Graham

Browning, Mrs Angela

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butler, Peter

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Chapman, Sir Sydney

Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cran, James

Day, Stephen

Devlin, Tim

Dover, Den

Duncan, Alan

Elletson, Harold

Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)

Evans, Roger (Monmouth)

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Column 923

Fabricant, Michael

Fishburn, Dudley

Forman, Nigel

Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)

Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)

Fry, Sir Peter

Gallie, Phil

Gardiner, Sir George

Gillan, Cheryl

Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)

Hague, Rt Hon William

Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy

Hawksley, Warren

Heald, Oliver

Hendry, Charles

Hicks, Robert

Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)

Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)

Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)

Hunter, Andrew

Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

Jenkin, Bernard

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

King, Rt Hon Tom

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)

Kynoch, George (Kincardine)

Lait, Mrs Jacqui

Legg, Barry

Lidington, David

Lilley, Rt Hon Peter

Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)

MacKay, Andrew

McLoughlin, Patrick

Maitland, Lady Olga

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