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Mr. Malone: Hon. Members will be pleased to hear that I do not intend to anticipate what the consultation


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will reveal. Announcements will be made in due course, and if the matter arrives on the desks of Ministers they will view it with an open mind. I hope that my assurance will be accepted by the hon. Lady, her hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis) and my hon. Friends who have an interest in the matter.

I understand that, in the heat of public debate, it is more difficult to tease out the various strands--to identify where consultation on one suggestion ends and the possibility of another proposal may well begin. It is my purpose, however, to reassure the hon. Lady and the people of Solihull that nothing can be said to be a foregone conclusion.

The consultation document proposes that, in some instances, services that have been provided at Solihull hospital will in future be purchased from other hospitals in the area, notably Birmingham Heartlands NHS trust. That proposal makes the fairly common assumption that an ultimate merger may well be suggested. As I have said, public consultation on the plans continues, and I shall not pre-empt the outcome.

I can, however, give some idea of the timetable. The consultation period is due to end on 27 October; the health authority will then consider the responses that it has received. I believe that the outcome will be discussed at a public meeting of the authority on 10 November.

Although my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mr. Mills) did not raise the point in the debate, he has spoken to me before--along with my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull--and has asked me whether I would be prepared to meet a delegation from Solihull metropolitan borough council to discuss the future provision of health services in the town. I should be happy to meet such a delegation and listen to its views, once the current public consultation is complete but before any final decision is made. I hope that my hon. Friends will take that as an earnest of my good intentions, and of my understanding that this is a serious public issue.

The hon. Member for Yardley set out the background rather well. We are clearly not where we expected, and would like, to be. The financial problems facing Solihull hospital are extremely difficult. The hon. Lady asked three questions about what had happened and the implications of those events. I understand that a survey has been carried out by Price Waterhouse, and the health authority's external auditors have also been asked to investigate the position immediately; their findings are being examined very carefully. I do not wish to predict


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what Solihull health authority's audit committee will say, but it is considering the findings and is expected to report its recommendations to the authority by early next year.

That, too, is a separate matter. I do not suggest that those investigations will have any particular relevance, other than in examining the past. As the hon. Lady said, we need to look to the hospital's future.

During the investigation of the problems, things have not been standing still. The health authority, which is managerially responsible for Solihull hospital, has replaced the previous management team with an experienced team of managers whose task is to ensure the continuation of the day-to-day management of the hospital, and the provision of a good local service for the people of Solihull.

Let me tell my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden that there is no question of there being an overall shortage of funds in the area. Over the past five years, there has been a 6.7 per cent. real terms increase in Solihull health authority's budget allocation from West Midlands regional health authority. The problem lies in the unexpected outcome of developments in the hospital itself. I understand the serious concern about what appear from the Price Waterhouse report--which has been published--to be serious misunderstandings about the hospital's position both before and during the period of its application for trust status. I assure the House that I take that very seriously. We shall await with interest the outcome of the consultation process and read with great interest what the health authority's auditors say, because that must be examined.

Finally, I assure the House that it is our concern that the people of Solihull have the best possible health service, to which they are entitled. The debate has been extremely useful in illuminating the issues, and I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. It being half-past Two o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, pursuant to Order [19 December].

PRIVATE BUSINESS

Loch Leven and Lochaber Water Power Order Confirmation

Mr. Michael Forsyth presented a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, relating to Loch Leven and Lochaber Water Power; and the same was read the First time; and ordered to be considered on Tuesday 31 October and to be printed. [Bill 179.]


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Trade Union Employment Rights

3.30 pm

Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock): I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to give effect to the employment rights and relationships between the social partners as provided for in the European Social Chapter; and for connected purposes.

The essence of my Bill is to amend the law so that the much vaunted and heralded so-called opt-outs obtained by the Prime Minister no longer form part of our law. The social chapter of the Maastricht treaty and the earlier European social charter of 1989 are often confused. Of course, exaggerated and inflated claims are also made about them, especially by Conservative Members.

There is one subject on which I agree with Conservative Members who have criticised the Prime Minister in relation to the Maastricht treaty. They have realised that his much-acclaimed triumph in obtaining opt-outs from the social chapter are not worth the paper they are written on--in the long term. They are a sham, because, inexorably, there will be improvements in place of work conditions and employment practices for workers right across Europe. Those improvements will be obtained, first, through the normal collective bargaining process between employers and trade unions. Secondly, there are multinational employers who think big and who wish to extend good employment practices to all their workers right across Europe. They are confident about their management style, and they believe in motivating their work forces and treating them as mature, informed and committed. Such employers, such as United Biscuits, will have no hesitation in enacting and creating works councils.

Thirdly, the Prime Minister's opt-outs have been diminished in value by judicial decisions; not so much by the European Court of Justice, whose decisions are rare though they are given much publicity, as by our domestic court and tribunal structure. For instance, in an important judgment, the House of Lords pointed out that the Government were wrong, and that they did have obligations to part-time workers, thereby extending the rights of such workers. Sooner or later, the Government will lose in the courts on the question of the working time directive, which, quite reasonably, seeks to limit the average working week to 48 hours and the average working day to 13 hours or eight hours for night work. Most importantly, it will for the first time, if enacted--I think it will be enacted through court decisions--give workers a legal entitlement to at least four weeks paid annual leave, something which other workers throughout the European Union have but which is denied to workers in the United Kingdom.

The good news is that a Labour Government are on the way. Of course, that Labour Government will have no hesitation in abrogating the opt-out provisions of the social chapter, and they will also seek to implement the spirit of the social charter of 1989. The bad news is that there are still 14 or 15 months to go.

For many workers, time is not on their side. Between now and the advent of a Labour Government, hundreds--if not thousands--of workers will have been disadvantaged in relation to comparable workers with comparable skills in similar industries elsewhere in


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Europe. Most workers in the United Kingdom will not have the time or the resources to seek remedies through tribunals or courts. I believe that, in the interests of everyone involved, and of the United Kingdom as a whole, we should now lift the constraints on so- called opt-outs, and begin to talk positively--here and in the Council of Ministers--about rights and opportunities relating to workplaces and careers. We should do all we can to demonstrate a change of attitudes to employment rights here in the United Kingdom. In any event, much of the protocol in the Maastricht treaty requires unanimity--including the provisions relating to social security, protection of workers, including those whose employment is terminated, representation and collective defence of workers, and the conditions of third-country nationals residing in the European Union. In that regard, the opt-outs are demonstrably meaningless. Important measures are currently being enacted elsewhere in the European Union, such as the directive on works councils, which provide for a civilised, democratic dialogue between employer and work force. Over the coming months or years, British workers will be excluded from the benefits and security that these provide, and from the provisions of other directives, such as the directive on part-time workers. That directive is still greatly needed, despite the House of Lords judgment, because so many people are being exploited by "zero hour" contracts and other disadvantages merely because they work part time.

One directive that is coming up is described, rather cumbersomely, as

"the reconciliation of work and family".

It is designed to promote equal opportunities and flexible working models to reflect the changes in society. It incorporates provisions relating to parental leave, job security and employment practices, along with an end to the "zero hour" contracts.

The Government have made a shameful attempt to seek derogation until the year 2000, instead of implementing the directive providing protection for young people in June 1996 along with the rest of Europe. That directive would restrict the working hours of children under the age of 15 who are undergoing training or work experience, to eight hours a day or 40 hours a week. Employment would be restricted to two hours on school days, 12 hours a week in term time and 35 hours a week during school holidays.

In this day and age, we should embrace such provisions rather than resisting them. It does no credit to the United Kingdom that the Government still pretend that they can resist the inevitable, and it does nothing to help workers who are currently disadvantaged. It is time that we abandoned the sham nonsense of the opt-outs, and started playing our full part with our social partners in trying to build a fair and equitable Europe based on employment rights that allow people to develop their skills to the fullest extent and enjoy their lives to the full.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Andrew Mackinlay, Mr. Kevin Macnamara, Mrs. Alice Mahon, Mr. Jim Cunningham, Mr. Terry Lewis, Mr. Bill Etherington, Mrs. Ann Clwyd, Mr. Ken Purchase, Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe, Mr. Tony Banks, Mr. Robert Ainsworth and Mr. Bill Olner.


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Trade Union Employment Rights

Mr. Mackinlay accordingly presented a Bill to give effect to the employment rights and relationships between the social partners as provided for in the European Social Chapter; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 3 November, and to be printed. [Bill 181.]


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Opposition Day

[20th Allotted Day]

National Lottery

Madam Speaker: I have to inform the House that I have selected the amendment standing in the name of the Prime Minister.

3.29 pm

Dr. John Cunningham (Copeland): I beg to move,

That this House expresses its concern at recent suggestions that current Government spending on the arts be met by Lottery funds, and reaffirms its wish that funds raised for good causes from the National Lottery should be used for purposes additional to, and not in substitution for, items set out in the Government's existing expenditure plans; believes that when the current contract for the operation of the National Lottery comes to an end, the new Section 5 Licence should be on a not-for-profit basis; proposes that a Lottery Consumers Council should be established to oversee the work of the Lottery regulator; deplores the delay in establishing the National Lottery Charities Board; insists that the funds raised for good causes should fairly benefit every part of the country and every community; and calls for reform of the distribution mechanisms for Lottery funds in order to ensure that this is achieved.

The national lottery was established by Act of Parliament in 1993, and began operating about one year ago. Its establishment met with widespread, but not universal, approval. It has quickly become very successful at raising funds and making huge profits for the operator. Camelot has a licence to print tickets, and another to print money. The money for distribution is an important addition to capital available for the arts, heritage, sport, charities and, of course, the millennium fund. The lottery and the method of distribution of the proceeds have also quickly become hugely controversial, for several predictable and predicted reasons-- perhaps none more so than the payments of huge sums of money to a family for papers that many people felt belonged to the state in the first place.

What has gone wrong? Quite a lot, and mainly because of Government stubbornness during consideration of the National Lottery etc. Bill, and Government inaction since. The present Secretary of State, to her credit, apparently recognises at least some of the failings and problems, and has the opportunity to make some changes. She can certainly have our support if she agrees to do so.

Mr. Nick Hawkins (Blackpool, South): The right hon. Gentleman mentioned profits. Does he accept that the lottery organisers, Camelot, had to take all the commercial risk? That is something that the Labour party simply does not understand. It does not understand the concept that a company must take risks, and is entitled to the profits if it is prepared to take those risks.

Dr. Cunningham: A rather over-laboured Conservative central office argument, I fear. There is no risk to Camelot. It is a one-way bet in a one -horse race with a national private enterprise monopoly, with a sweetheart deal with the BBC that, if it had been ITV, would have cost it tens of millions of pounds. I fail to see where the hon. Gentleman's argument stands.

Mr. Joseph Ashton (Bassetlaw): Is my right hon. Friend aware that Littlewoods Pools has made very


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successful profits on 2 per cent. of turnover in the many years that it has been in existence? The Government gave Camelot 5 per cent. of the turnover with no competition, exactly as my right hon. Friend says, and it has made an unbelievable profit.

Dr. Cunningham: What is more, it has been given tremendous advantages over the pools industry into the bargain.

The failures are too much profit-taking by Camelot; threats of Treasury appropriation of the proceeds of the lottery; damage to the fund-raising of many charities; confusion between capital and revenue implications of funding; required matching funding conditions that are too onerous, or simply not available to too many people who seek to benefit; the failure-- so far, at least--for there to be any fairness in regional distribution; bureaucracy and inefficiency in the system itself; and no public voice or oversight or scrutiny of the process. I shall discuss those issues.

No one--with the possible exception of Camelot staff privately among themselves--envisaged or predicted that such excessive profits would go to the operator. Those profits are said to be about £1 million per week and increasing. The lottery is a national monopoly run by private enterprise. The Government gave a seven-year contract with no breaks for reconsideration, but the regulator apparently has the powers to act to end those excessive profits.

Part I, section 4 of the National Lottery etc. Act 1993 places overriding duties on the Secretary of State and on the regulator. Section 4(2) says:

"the Secretary of State and the Director General shall each in exercising those functions do his best"--

[Interruption.] I am quoting from the 1993 Act. If the Secretary of State will forgive me, that is what it says. It continues: "to secure that the net proceeds of the National Lottery are as great as possible."

That is an overriding duty on the Secretary of State. Part I, section 6, of the Act gives the director general powers to vary any condition of a licence. So between them, the right hon. Lady and the director general can act on the problem now. Part I, section 11, gives the Secretary of State powers to issue a direction to the director general to this effect.

We know at the outset of the debate that, if the Government and the right hon. Lady want to take action to deal with excess profit-taking by Camelot, they can. The right hon. Lady has the power, and the option is available to her. What we on this side of the House want to know, and what the people of this country want to know, is whether she will use those powers to maximise the amount available for distribution to good causes.

The right hon. Lady inherited an unsatisfactory situation, but she can act now--or, let us say, at the end of the financial year--to correct the situation.

Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) rose --

Dr. Cunningham: I will give way in a moment.

I urge the right hon. Lady to do so--the question is, will she? I will be happy to give way to her first if she will answer that question. Well, Madam Speaker, that is the first question to be ducked. I will give way to her hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), who may have more courage.


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Mr. Evans: If the Labour party wins the next election, will the main thrust of its policy be to make the lottery less successful by limiting prizes, clobbering Camelot and interfering with the scratch cards? Is not the Labour party's problem that the national lottery is a great success?

Dr. Cunningham: The hon. Gentleman could not have been listening when I started my speech. I said that the lottery was a success, and added that it had widespread, but not universal, support. His questions were a complete misinterpretation of what I have said and what I am about to say. The hon. Gentleman--like his right hon. and hon. Friends--never seems to learn.

The experiences of the public being exploited as consumers of water, gas and electricity are being repeated by the lottery, and that is not what people want. People want to play the lottery for fun and enjoyment--I do so myself--and their first objective is to win. But they also hope and expect that the majority of what is left after the prizes are taken goes to good causes. That is the public's feeling on this issue, and they do not support the level of profits that are being made in the present monopoly.

Mr. Jacques Arnold (Gravesham): The right hon. Gentleman complained about the regional distribution to charities as a result of the lottery. Bearing in mind that the north-west region is second only to Yorkshire in terms of the amount received, how would he redistribute the money? What would his constituents think about the right hon. Gentleman recommending a redistribution away from their area?

Dr. Cunningham: The first weakness in the hon. Gentleman's argument is that my constituency is in the northern region and not the north-west, but we will set that little error aside. The hon. Gentleman is simply talking about the distribution of charity funding, and not the overall distribution of funds, so he is wrong on both counts.

The public strongly support the argument that much more of the money that is being taken as profit should go to good causes. They have a flutter to try to win, but they believe that their losses will help the good causes that they support. They do not believe that the creation of vast profits and huge salaries and bonuses for Camelot should be any part of the lottery.

The case for a not-for-profit operation, as our motion today sets out, is very powerful. The existing contract must be honoured--there is no doubt about that--but Labour in office will ensure that, when a new contract is due, it must be on a not-for-profit basis, thus releasing many more millions of pounds for the arts, sport, heritage and charities alike.

Mr. William O'Brien (Normanton): Does my hon. Friend agree that charities distribution has overlooked a number of good causes? I refer particularly to the hospice movement. Will my colleague impress upon the Secretary of State that that is a good and a worthy cause that should receive prime consideration?

Dr. Cunningham: My hon. Friend has made his point very well, and I hope that the Secretary of State and those who are responsible for charities funding will take his point on board.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster): The right hon. Gentleman's argument assumes that a


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non-profit-making organisation would run the national lottery as well as Camelot does. Will he acknowledge that the national lottery is the most effective lottery in the world? It is run more efficiently than any other lottery, and its administrative costs are one third that of other lotteries. The hon. Gentleman cannot guarantee that a non-profit-making organisation would do anything like as well for good causes.

Dr. Cunningham: I am prepared to make a concession to the hon. Lady, who is a constituency neighbour. She is correct to say that nothing can be guaranteed in such matters; there were no guarantees about the existing system, either. Camelot, as it presently exists or through some management buy-out, will be perfectly entitled to bid for the new contract when it becomes available. If it were successful, why would a new regime run the lottery less efficiently? I now turn to the additionality argument, and we must put some more important questions to the right hon. Lady in that regard. From the outset, ministerial promises came thick and fast in order to reassure everyone that lottery funding would be additional to Government departmental spending programmes. That clear, essential commitment increased support for lottery legislation in the House and in another place.

When unveiling his national lottery plans on 17 December 1992, the then Secretary of State for National Heritage said:

"The national lottery will be an additional source of money for schemes that might otherwise never be realised. This money will not substitute for other Government spending"

Speaking at an English Heritage conference on 16 September 1994, the Prime Minister said:

"On the Government side"--

then he paused and continued--

"Treasury please note--we will make no case by case reductions on conventional public spending programmes to take account of awards from the lottery. The money raised by the lottery will not replace existing Government spending".

However, the Prime Minister's colleagues in the Treasury soon had other ideas. The Chief Secretary has already tried to raid the lottery funds, and we read that the Secretary of State is locked in a struggle with him. She made sure that we knew about that by leaking her letter to him all over the place; not only did we know, but he knew we knew.

In her letter, the Secretary of State said that this could not be countenanced, because

"it would be the clearest possible broken promise".

That has never stopped the Government in the past, so I do not think that that is much of a guarantee. I ask the right hon. Lady to give the House an unequivocal assurance today that she has won that battle and that the lottery funds will always be additional expenditure. Can she give the House that assurance now? I am again willing to give way if she is willing to give that assurance. Perhaps I can put it another way: will the Secretary of State confirm that her departmental budget is safe, and that there will be no cuts in her spending programmes in next month's Budget? Can the Secretary of State give us that assurance? I am pretty sure she cannot.


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Perhaps the Secretary of State can answer an easier question. I refer her to a statement by her hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Townend), who is chair of the Tory Back-Bench finance committee. [ Hon. Members:-- "Chairman."] Chairperson. Speaking to Conservative students at York university on Friday 20 October about the right hon. Lady's budget and the Heritage Fund, the hon. Member for Bridlington said--I wonder whether he had the courtesy to tell the right hon. Lady--

"We should cut £200 million a year off the heritage budget, which is now over £1 billion. The arts are getting enormous sums of money from the National Lottery and therefore the heritage budget should no longer be a sacred cow."

Does the right hon. Lady agree with her hon. Friend?

The Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mrs. Virginia Bottomley): For the avoidance of doubt, I shall intervene, because it is clear that the right hon. Gentleman is struggling about what to say, and filling his speech with gaps. It may have been different when the right hon. Gentleman was shadowing the Deputy Prime Minister, but I intend to make my own speech in my own time, and I do not intend to help the right hon. Gentleman get through the time that has been allocated to him by filling up the gaps in his speech.

Dr. Cunningham: I am quite entertained by the right hon. Lady's intervention, because she is just like the Deputy Prime Minister. He never answered any questions, either.

Apparently there are great differences among Cabinet Ministers and between the right hon. Lady and her influential--we have to assume that the hon. Member for Bridlington is influential--Back-Bench colleagues. We shall wait to see who emerges victorious in this continuing battle about Government expenditure.

Apparently, there are also differences between the Secretary of State and her colleague at the Welsh Office about the status of lottery grants in Wales and awards to organisations in the Principality. The Secretary of State for Wales seems to have deemed it public expenditure. I wonder whether she agrees with her colleague on that.

Who is really in control of the decisions? The House was told by the Government, especially during the debate on Manchester's Olympic games bid, that it would certainly not be up to any Minister to decide whether Manchester's bid should receive money. However, the Prime Minister announced that £100 million from lottery proceeds would be available to fund a British academy of sport. We are not against such an academy, but who took the decision? Was it the Prime Minister or the Sports Council? It would be interesting to see the minutes of the discussion before that decision was made.

There is a real question to be answered, if any are ever to be answered. It is: are Ministers manipulating the lottery proceedings behind the scenes for political ends? There is a certain accumulation of evidence to that effect. Total independence in connection with the use of lottery proceeds was guaranteed to the House, but now the waters are being well and truly muddied. It is not as if the Treasury is not already doing well enough out of the lottery, because it is a substantial beneficiary. It took £410.7 million from the lottery between November 1994 and September of this year.


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Before the lottery was established, there was wide debate about its impact on the revenue-raising activities of charities and on other businesses such as the football pools. There were clear and insistent warnings to the Government, but Ministers brushed them aside, and they still do.

The National Council for Voluntary Organisations has carried out its own studies, and it concludes that very serious damage to voluntary sector incomes is apparent. That organisation estimates losses of about £330 million in the first year as a result of the impact of the lottery. I shall shortly turn to grants to charities, but whatever the total at the end of this first year, they will in no way match the shortfall that is being experienced by charities. The voluntary sector study confirms that the public are confused about the true beneficiaries of the lottery. It confirms that fewer people are donating, and that losses among fund-raising organisations are widespread.

The National Lottery etc. Act received Royal Assent in November 1993. The impact on charities was predicted then, yet only last week, after constant pressure from the Opposition Benches as well as from charities, was the Home Office moved to decide to investigate the position--too late really to repair or prevent the damage that has already taken place. Ministers in the Home Office have been negligent and dilatory, and the charities have had to pay the price.

Mr. Tim Devlin (Stockton, South): This matter was debated at some length in the House during consideration of the Bill. I was surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman saying yesterday on the radio that the Government had not listened to what had been said by the voluntary sector during that debate, because his hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Pendry), in explaining why Labour supported the Bill's Third Reading, said:

"Ministers did listen to the genuine concerns expressed. To their eternal credit, they promised to reflect on the many points that we had to put to them. That promise was kept."--[ Official Report , 28 April 1993; Vol. 223, c. 1114.]

Who is right: the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde or the right hon. Gentleman?

Dr. Cunningham: Ministers may have listened but, in relation to this point, as the hon. Gentleman knows, they took no action to monitor the impact on charities' fund-raising until his ministerial colleague announced a decision last Friday. The Act received Royal Assent in 1993. Do not tell me that they listened on that point: if the hon. Gentleman says that, he has not got a leg to stand on.

Mr. Toby Jessel (Twickenham): Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Cancer Relief Macmillan Fund has announced a 17 per cent. increase in charity given to it over the past year, and the British Red Cross a 25 per cent. increase, and this is the first year of the lottery?

Dr. Cunningham: I am pleased for those charities, but has the hon. Gentleman heard about what happened to Tenovus, which lost £1.5 million in the first year--income that was wiped out by the introduction of the lottery? Of course some have done better, but there is no doubt that a much larger number have done and are doing much worse.

Mr. David Alton (Liverpool, Mossley Hill): I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way,


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because I want to support his argument, not least because, just a few days ago, the Royal National Institute for the Blind announced that it had lost £500,000 since the inception of the lottery. To close the gate once the horse has bolted is not good enough. Those of us who were on the Standing Committee that considered the National Lottery etc. Bill argued persistently throughout that money would be lost to charities as a result of the lottery, not least because of the experience elsewhere in countries such as Ireland, where 16 leading charities had written to the Taoiseach pointing out that their donations had been massively reduced since the lottery was established there, so they knew in advance what the impact would be.

Dr. Cunningham: The hon. Gentleman is right, and I am pleased to be able to agree with him on that point.

As the honorary president of a number of voluntary organisations in my constituency, I know from local experience the damage that has been done to the fund-raising activities of charities and voluntary bodies.

The National Lottery Charities Board is also controlled by the Home Secretary. Yesterday, I read in the Evening Standard that the right hon. Lady the Secretary of State for National Heritage is locked in a battle to wrest control from him. Why does she not just tell him that it is an operational matter? He would be bound to give it up then.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Timothy Kirkhope): Ho, ho, that was a good one


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