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THE

PARLIAMENT ARY DEBA TES

OFFICIAL REPORT

IN THE THIRD SESSION OF THE FIFTY FIRST PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND

[WHICH OPENED 27 APRIL 1992]

FORTY FOURTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

SIXTH SERIESVOLUME 265 SIXTEENTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1994 95


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House of Commons

Monday 30 October 1995

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Madam Speaker -- in the Chair ]

Oral Answers to Questions

WALES

Strikes

1. Mr. Jacques Arnold: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many working days are currently being lost in strikes in (a) Wales and (b) South Korea.     [37825]

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. William Hague): In 1994, an average of 14 working days per 1,000 employees were lost due to labour disputes in Wales. I understand that the corresponding figure for South Korea was 103 per 1,000.

Mr. Arnold: Do not those figures, which draw a comparison with one of the leading tiger economies of Asia, show the progress being made by Wales? Do not they show how Wales has cast aside its labour and trade union industrial tradition and taken on the opportunities presented by Tory Britain? May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his work in South Korea with a team of Welsh business men? It is already bearing fruit.

Mr. Hague: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. He is quite right to point to our good industrial relations record in Wales over recent years. When that is added to


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the fact that there is lower tax in Wales than in other countries, less regulation than in other countries and a good sense of partnership, it is no surprise that one of the headlines in the newspapers today was, "Wales heads UK confidence".

Dr. Marek: Nevertheless, does the Secretary of State realise that the tax take in the Republic of Korea is approximately half what it is here? Does he also realise that the rate of growth in South Korea has never fallen below 5 per cent. during the past 15 years, whereas the rate of growth in this country has never been above 5 per cent? Indeed, on average, it has stayed at around 1.5 per cent. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree, therefore, that whether there are strikes in the Republic of Korea makes no difference in any comparison with the Welsh economy? Is not the real comment on the Welsh economy the Conservative Government's abysmal handling of it?

Mr. Hague: It really is time that the hon. Gentleman started to reflect on and talk about the good news in our country. The recent Ford announcement in Bridgend was a huge vote of confidence in Wales, its workers and its economic circumstances. Unemployment in Wales has fallen by 27,000 since 1992; in the valleys, it has come down by 23 per cent. since the programme for the valleys began in April 1993. The hon. Gentleman should be joining me in telling the rest of the world how well we are doing and how good our prospects are.

Mr. Duncan: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, following his visit to Korea and, indeed, because of the climate for business in Wales, major companies in Korea want to use Wales as a springboard for investment in this country and to export to other countries in the European Union, and that his visit may well prove to be a great success?

Mr. Hague: I certainly think that there is considerable potential for investment in Wales by Korean companies. Some of them have already invested in other parts of the United Kingdom and I hope that, before too long, we shall see concrete evidence of their investing in Wales. For such companies, Wales is a very attractive place from


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which to do business with the rest of Europe because we have lower tax, less regulation and good industrial relations-- all of which have been brought about by the Government.

Mr. Morgan: While I yield to no one in my admiration for the phenomenal economic growth achieved in the tiger economies of south-east Asia, will the Secretary of State take this opportunity to apologise to the House and to Wales for the disgraceful anti-Welsh behaviour of his predecessor in preventing Wales from even mounting a bid for the 3,000-job Taiwanese picture-tube project, while Scotland, Ireland and the northern region had no such inhibitions?

Mr. Hague: In recent years, Wales has continued to gain between 10 per cent. and 20 per cent. of all inward investment into the United Kingdom --more than its proportionate share on the basis of population. That does not mean that we can be complacent; we have to redouble our efforts each year. All my predecessors were successful in helping to attract more inward investment into Wales and I hope to emulate that record.

Standard Spending Assessment

2. Mr. Dafis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the standard spending assessment for the unitary authorities in 1995-96.     [37828]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones): Various

Mr. Dafis: I thought that the Minister would say more, but I am glad to know that he has now recognised the need for a damping mechanism to mitigate the reduction that seems to be in the offing in relation to local government services in Wales. I am also glad that the Government are prepared to reconsider the formula for the standard spending assessment in future.

May I suggest to the Minister that, as a result of, first, increased demand for services, generated in part by Government legislation, and, secondly, cuts made over several years in areas such as schools and social services, the need now is for an enhanced level of funding rather than for a reduction? If the Government go for a reduction in funding, causing a reduction in the quality of services, to fund pre-election tax cuts, the political price that the Conservatives will pay in Wales will be very heavy.

Mr. Jones: I note what the hon. Gentleman says. As he knows, our decisions about the spending arrangements for local government--and about all the other spending arrangements--will be announced in due course. I can confirm--I think that I detect a certain note of welcome for it--our decision to bring about a damping scheme to reflect the new situation in the standard spending assessments. There has been considerable constructive work by Welsh Office officials and local government officers, which has resulted in the revised indicative SSA figures, which we are publishing today. Copies have been placed in the Library and will be sent to the chief executives of local authorities. The figures are to be discussed with them on 6 November. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I will discuss the subject with the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance on 16 November.

Mr. Nigel Evans: Does my hon. Friend agree that the people of Wales tend to get fed up with the whingeing of


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Opposition politicians, who are for ever crying that local authorities in Wales do not get enough money? Is he aware, however, that only the other day Mid Glamorgan councillors tried to line their own pockets by voting themselves a 400 per cent. increase in allowances--no doubt at the same time as cutting essential services to the people who live in the area? Will my hon. Friend give an assurance today that capping will remain in place in Wales to protect the people who will end up having to pay the high bills that will be foisted on them by Labour councillors?

Mr. Jones: I appreciate much of what my hon. Friend says; he has expertise in local government. He is absolutely right to point out the significance of councillors choosing to increase their pay by 600 per cent. They do so out of existing moneys, which means that they take the money away from other vital functions of local government.

Mr. Ray Powell: Will the Minister reflect on an article today in The Daily Telegraph which states that the Government are considering slashing the special aid package to Scotland and to Wales? Last year, we had £5 billion for Scotland and Wales through the special aid package. Will the Minister consider what effect slashing the aid package would have on local government? Will he ask the Secretary of State whether he will take the same stand as the Secretary of State for Scotland? If the Government intend to slash this amount, they will be on their death bed.

Mr. Jones: I am fascinated that, after being sacked by his leader only a fortnight ago, the hon. Gentleman has taken to reading The Daily Telegraph . Is this the rightward lurch that we know is going on in the Labour party today? I can simply tell the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is on record as saying that the formula arrangements for Wales have not changed and that that remains the position.

Mr. Simon Hughes: Although there has been a small increase in the budget for community care this year, what is the Welsh Office doing to address the fact that there is a deficit of about £71 million between assessed need and the grant for community care this year and the fact that there is a high risk that, when the unitary authorities take over next year, they will be even more stretched than local government is now?

Mr. Jones: The hon. Gentleman acknowledges that the increases that we laid down for three successive years have been left in place, despite the fact that inflation was lower than forecast for that period. We will consider all these matters when we make our announcements on local government spending towards the end of next month.

Unemployment

3. Mr. Barry Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people are unemployed in (a) Clwyd and (b) Wales; and what were the figures for May 1979.     [37830]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Rod Richards): In September 1995, the seasonally adjusted number of persons on the claimant


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count in Wales was 68,700. The unadjusted figure for Clwyd in September 1995 was 13,065. There is no comparable figure for Clwyd for May 1979.

Mr. Jones: Will the Minister and the Department take a keen interest in the long-term future of jobs at Merseyside and North-Western electricity board, as 300 compulsory redundancies were predicted during the takeover? Is he aware that some 2,000 aerospace jobs have been lost in my constituency in the past two years? We cannot afford to lose any more skilled jobs. Will he undertake to visit the headquarters of MANWEB to discuss its future?

Mr. Richards: I am aware of press speculation of redundancies at MANWEB and, while it is a matter for the company, no one wants uncertainty for its employees or forced redundancies. There is also an awful lot of good news in and around the hon. Gentleman's constituency--particularly with regard to Broughton, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State visited on 26 September this year. The Raytheon Services Centre is staying open, while Sharp UK has announced an investment that will create 50 jobs. The Almedica Services Corporation has announced an investment that will lead to a further 200 jobs being created, while Warwick International is creating 60 more jobs. Kemitron in Hawarden is creating 100 jobs, while Mita UK in Abergele--in my constituency, as it happens--is proposing an investment that will create 70 jobs.

Mr. Sweeney: Will my hon. Friend join me in welcoming a piece of investment that is very important to my constituency? The new Barry hospital, which cost £8 million, was opened last Thursday by her royal highness Princess Margaret, and I look forward to that hospital providing a wonderful service to my constituents in the years to come.

Mr. Richards: I am delighted that there has been further investment in the NHS in my hon. Friend's constituency. Such investment has formed a part of the policy of the Government since 1979, and my hon. Friend may be assured that the health service is safe in our hands.

Mr. Rogers: Further to the Secretary of State's response to Question 1 regarding the number of working days lost--

Madam Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must rephrase his question so that it relates to unemployment. We cannot operate in retrospect--we are now dealing with Question 3.

Mr. Rogers: Further to any replies which have been given here today in relation to unemployment in Wales, is the Minister aware of the number of working days lost through unemployment? What is his message to the young people of the valleys whom we represent? In some communities, unemployment among young people is more than 80 per cent., while among adults the figure is well over 30 per cent. The Government's new revolution in south Wales seems to have passed the valleys by. Does the Minister have any comment on the matter?

Mr. Richards: I am astonished that the hon. Gentleman should raise the issues of unemployment and days lost through strikes. Had there been a count of the number of days lost through strikes in July this year when the Labour party was on strike--one out, all out as the


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Labour party slogan seems to be--there would have been an additional 28. I notice that all Labour Members took their pay for that day, even though they were not here at their place of work.

Mr. John Marshall: Will my hon. Friend estimate what would happen to the level of unemployment in Wales and in Clwyd if we were to introduce a national minimum wage, which in other countries has destroyed jobs, and to sign up to the social chapter, which would discourage inward investment into Wales?

Mr. Richards: My hon. Friend makes two extremely valid points. There is no question but that, if a minimum wage were introduced, unemployment in Wales, in Clwyd and in the United Kingdom as a whole would soar and that the introduction of the social chapter would have the same effect. Fortunately, between now and the general election, the Government will ensure that the electorate are informed of the dire consequences of introducing either of those two disastrous policies.

Mr. Ron Davies: The Under-Secretary of State's statement in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) will be welcomed by Opposition Members. I trust that he will join me in congratulating the Labour-controlled Clwyd county council on its sterling work to attract investment and jobs to that area. Does he agree that, if we are to overcome the appalling legacy of the past 16 years--the 150,000 jobs that have been lost in Wales and the fact that, every month, we go down the regional pay league--we must have a much more positive partnership between the public and private sectors? If so, will he acknowledge the vital work being done by the Welsh Development Agency? Perhaps he could confirm that, when the present round of forced asset-stripping of the WDA comes to an end, it will be Welsh Office policy to restore the previous level of grant to the WDA.

Mr. Richards: I certainly would have joined in with what the hon. Gentleman had to say about the WDA's good work had he bothered to turn up in July. I am not sure which is worse--the new Ron, the old Ron, or no Ron. The hon. Gentleman is wrong to say that the Government's economic policy since 1979 has been a disaster. It has been an outstanding success in Wales --we transformed the clapped-out economy that we inherited from the Labour party into a high-tech, modern economy with new, meaningful, high-tech jobs. That is the consequence of 16 years of Conservative Government, to which the WDA has contributed, as the hon. Gentleman knows, although the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) has refused to acknowledge it. As for the future funding of the WDA, the hon. Gentleman will find out in due course.

Madam Speaker: Order. We are not in debate. This is Question Time.

Roads

4. Mr. Martyn Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many road projects are currently receiving substantial European aid in (a) Clwyd and (b) Wales.     [37831]

Mr. Hague: One current project in south Wales is receiving in excess of £1 million grant aid.


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Mr. Jones: Will the Secretary of State ensure that some grant aid, be it from Europe or anywhere else, will go towards forming a link between the A55 and Denbigh to replace the jobs lost as a result of the loss of the North Wales hospital there?

Mr. Hague: The good news for the hon. Gentleman is that £1.5 million is being secured from the 1995 trans-European network fund for projects on the United Kingdom sections of the Ireland-UK-Benelux road link, which includes the A55 trunk road across north Wales. I shall always consider suggestions from around Wales for spending on other projects, but in each case we have to decide our priorities and balance the economic case for roads spending against the environmental consequences.

Sir Wyn Roberts: May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on unblocking the European funds that were due to Wales from Brussels, after his recent meeting with Commissioner Wulf-Mathies? Does not that suggest that the howls of anguish from Opposition Members both here and in the European Parliament about additionality were transparently much ado about nothing?

Mr. Hague: I thank my right hon. Friend for his comments. There has never been any question about addionality because the money that the European Community paid is additional to United Kingdom public expenditure. I am glad that we have now clarified those difficulties. I hope that next time Labour Members of the European Parliament want to question addionality, they will discuss it with me instead of making complaints in Europe, which leads to the funds being held up wholly unnecessarily.

Mr. Ron Davies: The Secretary of State and I seem to have missed each other on the first occasion on which he appeared at Welsh Questions, so may I put on record my congratulations on his good fortune at being appointed to the Cabinet? As he knows from his recent trip to Brussels, his predecessor tried to divert to the Welsh Development Agency funds that had been earmarked for other purposes. I am glad that the Secretary of State has put that matter right. Will he answer the question that the Under- Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Mr. Richards), signally failed to answer? When the present programme of forced asset stripping of the Welsh Development Agency comes to an end in 1997, will the WDA's grant be restored in real terms to its previous level?

Mr. Hague: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his welcome and I welcome him to Welsh Questions. We did miss him a little last time--it was like a performance of "Hamlet" without one of the grave diggers--and it is a great pleasure to see him here. I congratulate him on his re-election to the shadow Cabinet and look forward to many more exchanges.

My predecessor did not divert funds as the hon. Gentleman described. All that we did in our recent agreement with the Commission was to change the transparency of the presentation. It is agreed that the money has always been additional. On the future funding of the Welsh Development Agency, he will know that, in the Welsh Office baseline, the grant in aid to the agency rises sharply once property sales are completed. I expect that to be the case, although it is, of course, subject to public expenditure decisions between now and then.


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Nursery Education

5. Mr. Rowlands: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on further developments of nursery education in Wales.     [37832]

Mr. Richards: Our proposed voucher scheme aims to expand the level of provision in the maintained, voluntary and private sectors so that every four-year-old in Wales whose parents so choose will have access to pre- school education.

Mr. Rowlands: Why do Welsh Office Ministers have to wait upon English pilot projects and schemes for voucher systems? After all, education is a totally devolved responsibility. Why do they not exercise some imagination and use some of the vacant classrooms that already exist in many of our primary schools to deliver nursery education for our three and four-year-olds now?

Mr. Richards: We already have some 90 per cent. coverage in Wales and the Office of Standards in Education has been surveying provision. English local education authorities have proposed running pilot schemes, which we did not feel were necessary in Wales as we already had 90 per cent. coverage. Nevertheless, we shall look carefully at the outcome of the pilot schemes in England.

Mr. Merchant: Does my hon. Friend agree that the real benefit of the excellent initiative on nursery education is that all four-year-olds in Wales will benefit in real terms from the new nursery education policy and that that contrasts favourably with what happened when Labour was in power, when there was no effort to make provision?

Mr. Richards: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. While we are in power, parents will have a choice as to the provision of nursery education, which they would not have were Labour ever to come to power.

Mr. Hanson: Will the Minister ensure that, in any future scheme, strong discussions with local authorities will take place because Labour authorities are providing nursery education and many Opposition Members fear that any future scheme will top-slice that money and ensure that more children receive private nursery education, but at more cost to their parents and with fewer opportunities for all the children of Wales?

Mr. Richards: There will be new money plus, of course, an amount of money from current local authority expenditure. As always, the Government consult.

Mr. Win Griffiths: Can the Minister explain why we need a voucher scheme in Wales when virtually all the four-year-olds who the scheme will cover already have full or part-time education; when the voucher, which is valued at £1,100, offers less than two thirds of the current cost of providing a nursery place in Wales; and when the whole scheme is likely unnecessarily to destabilise existing provision? Given that the Secretary of State for Education and Employment in England fought against the scheme right to the last minute, is this not another case of raving right wingers in the Tory party getting hold of a policy for which there is no need in Wales?

Mr. Richards: We are having a voucher scheme because, unlike the Labour party, the Government believe


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in offering choice to parents in Wales. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the voucher being worth £1,100. Yes, the voucher will be worth £1,100, but that does not mean that local authorities cannot spend more than £1,100 and, obviously, parents in the private sector will spend more than £1,100.

Digital Terrestrial Television

6. Mr. Wigley: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the implications of digital terrestrial television on the future of S4C and the Welsh language.     [37833]

Mr. Richards: Several.

Mr. Wigley: May I ask the Minister to repress his natural modesty and congratulate S4C, on whose programmes he has been an all too familiar face, on its tremendous success? Does he agree that a success of the establishment of the channel was that it enabled Welsh language programmes to be viewed at peak viewing times without denying people in the non-Welsh speaking parts of Wales access to BBC 1 and HTV, on which Welsh language programmes had previously been seen? Will he therefore ensure in any forthcoming discussions on the future of those television services that the Welsh language programmes will be at peak time and that paragraph 2.44 of the White Paper, which suggests that the programmes could be rescheduled, will not lead to that conclusion?

Mr. Richards: I am delighted to hear the hon. Gentleman say what a great success S4C has been because it was the Conservative Government who set it up.

On the hon. Gentleman's more serious point, I am aware that many people are concerned about peak viewing hours for the Welsh language. Those fears are entirely unfounded. The Government are determined to ensure that both S4C Welsh language programmes and Channel 4 programmes will be made available during peak times in as many parts of Wales as is technically feasible.

Mr. Stephen: Is my hon. Friend aware that Cardiff is a centre of excellence in the film animation industry and that some of its cartoon characters are world famous? Does he join me in regretting that so many of them end up as Labour Members of Parliament?

Mr. Richards: One of those cartoon characters--the hon. Member for Cardiff, West--is sitting on the Labour Front Bench. We have become accustomed to his antics. My hon. Friend makes a valid point.

Mr. Hain: Will the Minister clarify his statement that both Channel 4 and S4C will be available? The current proposals, as I understand them, are for a shared channel, yet digitisation provides the opportunity for up to 18 channels. There seems to be no technical reason why the whole of Wales could not have both S4C and Channel 4 through digitisation. Will the Minister make sure that that happens?

Mr. Richards: I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman asks a question. I thought that his silence had been bought.

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that S4C Welsh language programmes will be made available at peak viewing times in Wales and that, where it is technically feasible so to do, Channel 4 will also be available.


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Council Tax

7. Mrs. Jane Kennedy: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received with regard to council tax being levied on prescribed dwellings by local authorities.     [37834]

Mr. Gwilym Jones: Several, including one from the hon. Lady herself.

Mrs. Kennedy: Does the Minister recall receiving representations from my constituent, Mr. Ronald Bender, after Anglesey council levied council tax at the full rate on his chalet, which he is allowed to use, by agreement, for only six weeks a year? Will he examine the extent to which Anglesey council is not giving discounts, even where appropriate, so that I can reassure my constituent that the regulations are being applied fairly?

Mr. Jones: I assure the hon. Lady that I recall the correspondence that we exchanged about her constituent, Mr. Bender. I understand that Ynys Mo n borough council has received counsel's opinion and, as a result, has refunded to the hon. Lady's constituent sums of money that go back to 1993. I trust that that is a satisfactory outcome. This is a responsibility for Ynys Mo n and any other local authority in Wales, and I am sure that any further case will be considered carefully in the light of the outcome of Mr. Bender's case.

Catalonia

8. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on his recent visit to Catalonia.     [37836]

Mr. Hague: Wales has been developing economic and cultural relations with Catalonia since 1991. My visit coincided with the Wales in Catalonia festival when, in addition to leading a trade delegation, I was pleased to meet regional President Pujol, his Minister for Industry and Energy, and the Mayor of Barcelona, Mr. Maragall.

Mr. Jones: When the Secretary of State met President Pujol, did it cross his mind that President Pujol is a politician who is directly elected by the people of Catalonia, and that that is in stark contrast to the position of the Secretary of State for Wales and his party, who have no democratic mandate from the people of Wales? Does he realise that that denial of democracy and the running of Wales by quango-isation mean that support for a Parliament of Wales is now at an unprecedented level?

Mr. Hague: I suppose that all sorts of things crossed my mind, but it certainly crossed my mind that Wales has huge advantages. We have an expanding economy, a willing work force, fantastic scenery and a wonderful culture. Wales can hold its head up high in the world and we should not ruin it with an unnecessary assembly, which would be a room full of hot air.

Mr. Jenkin: Did my right hon. Friend have a moment to compare Catalan unemployment levels with those in Wales? Would he draw any conclusions from that?

Mr. Hague: I do not have the Catalan figures on the tip of my tongue, but my hon. Friend will find that Spanish unemployment in general is two to three times that in the United Kingdom. Unemployment in Wales has been brought down to the UK average over the past 18 months


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for the first time in 70 years, which is a considerable achievement. That compares well with almost everywhere else in Europe because of the lower tax levels, less regulation and good industrial relations that the Government have brought about.

Mr. Donald Anderson: Did the Secretary of State note the degree of regional pride in Catalonia arising from its autonomy in respect of both Spain and the external world? Did he notice that the cities in Catalonia have a degree of financial independence and responsibility that makes our cities in Wales extremely jealous?

Mr. Hague: I certainly noticed the regional pride, but the hon. Gentleman will agree that a great deal of pride exists in Wales. People are not prevented from having that pride just because we are not changing the constitutional arrangement in the United Kingdom. I hope that the new unitary authorities will prove a successful development in local government and that, over time, more functions can be transferred to local government. My predecessor did that with several items of decision making and I hope to do the same.

Chemical-Chase Manhattan Bank

9. Mr. Jon Owen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what talks he has had with the newly merged Chemical-Chase Manhattan bank about its continued presence in Wales.     [37837]

Mr. Hague: I have made it clear that I am available to talk to representatives of the company, should the circumstances warrant it.

Mr. Jones: That is a rather disappointing reply, as the Chemical- Chase Manhattan bank is possibly the cornerstone of the financial services initiative in south-east Wales. Were it lost to Wales, the implication would be far worse than a loss of jobs. It has been one of the companies that has helped attract many other companies into Wales and I am disappointed to hear that the Welsh Office has not yet thought fit to discuss whether the bank should stay in Wales or whether the jobs should go to south-east England.

Mr. Hague: I fully share the hon. Gentleman's feelings--he need have no question about that. Wales needs and deserves a strong financial services sector. That bank knows that it is extremely welcome in Wales and grant has been paid to it in the past. I have intimated to it that the Welsh Office and I are fully prepared to have discussions with it. I stand ready to discuss things at any time.

Local Government Finance

10. Mr. Key: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the level of support for standard spending from central Government to local authorities in Wales.     [37838]

Mr. Gwilym Jones: The level of support for 1995-96 is 88.6 per cent. and provision for the next financial year will be considered shortly.


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