House of Commons Hansard Debates for 31 Oct 1995

Mr. Vivian Bendall (Ilford, North): First, may I declare an interest? I represent the London Taxi Drivers Association. That interest is registered in the Members' book upstairs.

It is to be welcomed that the Government have brought forward the amendment, which will ensure that wheelchair-accessible licensed taxis are guaranteed free access to transport termini--the very areas where those with disabilities are in most need of such vehicles. I wish to thank my hon. Friends who have shared my concerns that, without the amendment, owners of transport facilities could enter into exclusive contracts with minicab companies, thus excluding wheelchair-accessible licensed taxis from transport facilities. It is important that those people with those disabilities have proper access to the provision of transport in airports, railway stations and other such areas.

Many people do not realise that minicabs do not and cannot give that facility--that is of great importance. Such a position would have driven a coach and horses through the principle of the Bill, and undermined the commitment shown by the licensed taxi industry, to which the Minister

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has referred, to ensure that, in due course and at considerable cost to itself, all licensed taxis will become wheelchair-accessible.

I would, however, prevail on the Minister to answer a number of points, in view of the fact that this was a late Government amendment, and it has been difficult to ask him to clarify one or two points. First, the new clause will apply only to transport facilities that are designated by the Secretary of State. Which transport facilities are likely to be designated, and on what basis will the choice be made?

Secondly, the new clause provides the Secretary of State with the power to impose the "taxi provisions" in the Bill concerning wheelchair access on the vehicles and drivers used to provide services under a franchise agreement. How will that work in practice, and what provisions are likely to be imposed? Thirdly, the term "hire car" has not been defined in the new clause, but is simply stated to have

"such meaning as may be prescribed".

Why has the term not been defined, and what definition is likely to be prescribed?

Mr. Norris: In order not to detain the House, I think that it is better if I write to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) on those queries.

Mr. Tom Clarke: I found the Minister's reply unconvincing, but in the interests of progress, I look forward to a further discussion at the back of a taxi to Peckham, and I therefore will not press our amendments. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn .

Lords amendment No. 50 and Government amendment (i) thereto agreed to .

Lords amendments Nos. 51 to 88 agreed to .

New clause

Lords amendment: No. 89, after clause 35, to insert the following new clause-- Application to Parliament --

".--(1) This Act applies to an act done by or for purposes of the House of Lords or the House of Commons as it applies to an act done by a private person.

(2) For the purposes of the application of Part II in relation to the House of Commons, the Corporate Officer of that House shall be treated as the employer of a person who is (or would be) a relevant member of the House of Commons staff for the purposes of section 188 of the Employment Rights Act 1995.

(3) Except as provided in subsection (4), for the purposes of the application of sections 12 to 15, the provider of services is-- (a) as respects the House of Lords, the Corporate Officer of that House; and

(b) as respects the House of Commons, the Corporate Officer of that House.

(4) Where the service in question is access to and use of any place in the Palace of Westminster which members of the public are permitted to enter, the Corporate Officers of both Houses jointly are the provider of that service.

(5) Nothing in any rule of law or the law or practice of Parliament prevents proceedings being instituted before an industrial tribunal under Part II or before any court under Part III." Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.- - [Mr. Burt.]

Madam Deputy Speaker: With this, we may consider Government amendment to the Lords amendment, (a), in line 8, leave out

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`188 of the Employment Rights Act 1995'

and insert

`139 of the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978'.

Mr. Tom Clarke: At the recent lobbies to the House, many disabled people and organisations of disabled people were concerned--and it was a matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner)--that they did not have adequate access facilities, and even when they attempted to have a discussion in Westminster Hall, they were not allowed facilities for loudspeaker equipment.

I know that the Minister for Social Security and Disabled People is concerned to correct that position, but it might be helpful if he confirmed to the House that discussions to improve all this is continuing.

Mr. Burt: I am happy to respond. I share the concern that was raised at the time of the lobby. Discussions are going on to deal with that with the House authorities and with the Serjeant at Arms' office. I am sure that hon. Members will appreciate the written answer that appeared in Hansard on Tuesday 24 October, which was in response to the right hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris), and which gave details of the latest substantial alterations that have been completed to the palace of Westminster in favour of disabled people.

On the problem of microphones in Westminster Hall, I have not yet had an answer on that issue, but it is a live one. I know that discussions continue, and we are all anticipating future lobbies to see how that problem can be dealt with.

Mr. Clarke: With the leave of the House, I thank the Minister for that helpful statement. I know that he will have the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell), who spoke on this issue a few weeks ago, and who shares the Minister's and the House's concern.

Lords amendment No. 89 and Government amendment (a) agreed to . Lords amendments Nos. 90 to 111 agreed to .

Lords amendments Nos. 112 to 127 agreed to.

New clause

Lords amendment: No. 128, after schedule 2, to insert the following new schedule-- ("Schedule 2A --

Premises Occupied Under Leases--

Part I--

Occupation by Employer or Trade Organisation--

Failure to obtain consent to alteration

1. If any question arises as to whether the occupier has failed to comply with the section 6 or section ( Duty of trade organisation to make adjustments ) duty, by failing to make a particular alteration to the premises, any constraint attributable to the fact that he occupies the premises under a lease is to be ignored unless he has applied to the lessor in writing for consent to the making of the alteration.

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Joining lessors in proceedings under section 8

2.--(1) In any proceedings under section 8, in a case to which section ( Alterations to premises occupied under leases ) applies, the complainant or the occupier may ask the tribunal hearing the complaint to direct that the lessor be joined or sisted as a party to the proceedings.

(2) The request shall be granted if it is made before the hearing of the complaint begins.

(3) The tribunal may refuse the request if it is made after the hearing of the complaint begins.

(4) The request may not be granted if it is made after the tribunal has determined the complaint.

(5) Where a lessor has been so joined or sisted as a party to the proceedings and the tribunal finds that--

(a) the lessor has--

(i) refused consent to the alteration, or

(ii) has consented subject to one or more conditions, and (b) the refusal or any of the conditions was unreasonable, it may make such declaration as it considers appropriate or order the lessor to pay compensation to the complainant.

(6) A declaration or order under sub-paragraph (5) may be made in substitution for, or in addition to, any steps taken by the tribunal under section 8(2).

(7) If the tribunal orders the lessor to pay compensation it may not make an order under section 8(2) ordering the occupier to do so.

Regulations

3. Regulations may make provision as to circumstances in which-- (a) a lessor is to be taken, for the purposes of section ( Alterations to premises occupied under leases ) and this Part of this Schedule to have--

(i) withheld his consent;

(ii) withheld his consent unreasonably;

(iii) acted reasonably in withholding his consent;

(b) a condition subject to which a lessor has given his consent is to be taken to be reasonable;

Sub-leases etc.

4. The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision supplementing, or modifying, the provision made by section ( Alterations to premises occupied under leases ) or any provision made by or under this Part of this Schedule in relation to cases where the occupier occupies premises under a sub-lease or sub-tenancy. Part II--

Occupation by Providers of Services--

Failure to obtain consent to alteration

5. If any question arises as to whether the occupier has failed to comply with the section 15 duty, by failing to make a particular alteration to premises, any constraint attributable to the fact that he occupies the premises under a lease is to be ignored unless he has applied to the lessor in writing for consent to the making of the alteration.

Reference to court

6.--(1) If the occupier has applied in writing to the lessor for consent to the alteration and--

(a) that consent has been refused, or

(b) the lessor has made his consent subject to one or more conditions,

the occupier or a disabled person who has an interest in the proposed alteration to the premises being made, may refer the matter to a county court or, in Scotland, to the sheriff.

(2) In the following provisions of this Schedule "court" includes "sheriff".

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(3) On such a reference the court shall determine whether the lessor's refusal was unreasonable or (as the case may be) whether the condition is, or any of the conditions are, unreasonable.

(4) If the court determines that the lessor's refusal was unreasonable it may make a declaration to the effect that if the lessor were to give his consent subject to such condition or conditions as may be specified in the declaration he would be acting reasonably.

Joining lessors in proceedings under section 20

7.--(1) In any proceedings on a claim under section 20, in a case to which this Part of this Schedule applies, the plaintiff, the pursuer or the occupier concerned may ask the court to direct that the lessor be joined or sisted as a party to the proceedings. (2) The request shall be granted if it is made before the hearing of the claim begins.

(3) The court may refuse the request if it is made after the hearing of the claim begins.

(4) The request may not be granted if it is made after the court has determined the claim.

(5) Where a lessor has been so joined or sisted as a party to the proceedings and the court finds that--

(a) the lessor has--

(i) refused consent to the alteration, or

(6) If the court orders the lessor to pay compensation it may not order the occupier to do so.

Regulations

8. Regulations may make provision as to circumstances in which--

(a) a lessor is to be taken, for the purposes of section ( Alterations to premises occupied under leases ) and this Part of this Schedule to have--

(i) withheld his consent;

(ii) withheld his consent unreasonably;

(iii) acted reasonably in withholding his consent;

(b) a condition subject to which a lessor has given his consent is to be taken to be reasonable;

Sub-leases etc.

9. The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision supplementing, or modifying, the provision made by section ( Alterations to premises occupied under leases ) or any provision made by or under this Part of this Schedule in relation to cases where the occupier occupies premises under a sub-lease or sub-tenancy.") Amendments made to the proposed Lords amendment: (a), in paragraph 2, leave out sub-paragraphs (5) and (6) and insert-- `(5) Where a lessor has been so joined or sisted as a party to the proceedings, the tribunal may determine--

(a) whether the lessor has--

(i) refused consent to the alteration, or

(ii) consented subject to one or more conditions, and

(b) if so, whether the refusal or any of the conditions was unreasonable.

(5A) If, under sub-paragraph (5), the tribunal determines that the refusal or any of the conditions was unreasonable it may take one or more of the following steps--

(a) make such declaration as it considers appropriate;

(b) make an order authorising the occupier to make the alteration specified in the order;

(c) order the lessor to pay compensation to the complainant. (5B) An order under sub-paragraph (5A)(b) may require the occupier to comply with conditions specified in the order.

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(6) Any step taken by the tribunal under sub -paragraph (5A) may be in substitution for, or in addition to, any step taken by the tribunal under section 8(2).'.

(b), in paragraph 6, leave out sub-paragraph (4) and insert-- `(4) If the court determines--

(a) that the lessor's refusal was unreasonable; or

(b) that the condition is, or any of the conditions are, unreasonable,

it may make such declaration as it considers appropriate or an order authorising the occupier to make the alteration specified in the order.

(4A) An order under sub-paragraph (4) may require the occupier to comply with conditions specified in the order.'.

(c), in pararaph 7, leave out sub-paragraph (5) and insert-- `(5) Where a lessor has been so joined or sisted as a party to the proceedings, the court may determine--

(a) whether the lessor has--

(i) refused consent to the alteration, or

(ii) consented subject to one or more conditions, and

(b) if so, whether the refusal or any of the conditions was unreasonable.

(5A) If, under sub-paragraph (5), the court determines that the refusal or any of the conditions was unreasonable it may take one or more of the following steps--

(a) make such declaration as it considers appropriate;

(b) make an order authorising the occupier to make the alteration specified in the order;

(c) order the lessor to pay compensation to the complainant. (5B) An order under sub-paragraph (5A)(b) may require the occupier to comply with conditions specified in the order.'.-- [Mr. Burt.] Lords amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 129 to 139 agreed to.

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