House of Commons Hansard Debates for 2 Nov 1995

Mr. John Gunnell (Morley and Leeds, South): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. On 19 July I put a series of questions to the Secretary of State for Education and Employment on the issue of the headlamp scheme. At the end of the Session I received replies that said that I would receive answers on 16 October. On 16 and 17 October I

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received some answers. Eight of the answers said that the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Squire), had asked the chairman of the Teacher Training Agency to write to me. I still have not had answers to those questions.

Do we have a right to answers to our questions, or can they simply be lost in an executive agency? Or is the Education Minister so uncertain about whether the Prime Minister will announce education policy himself that he is unable to give me answers?

Madam Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. Questions must be answered within the rules of the House. Now that the hon. Gentleman has raised the matter with me, I shall be pleased to take it up on his behalf and see what I can do to be helpful.

Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) asked you yesterday whether the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw) had yet written to you to substantiate the allegations that he made earlier in the week. Are you able to tell us yet whether you have received any such letter?

Madam Speaker: I have not received anything from the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw), but I am informed by him that a letter is on its way.

BILLS PRESENTED

Waste Prevention

Mr. Elliot Morley, supported by Ms Joan Ruddock, Mrs. Diana Maddock, Sir John Hannam, Mr. Cynog Dafis, Mr. Gary Waller and Mrs. Margaret Ewing, presented a Bill to enable certain local authorities to investigate what measures are needed to reduce, prevent or avoid waste in their area; to take such steps as they consider appropriate in order to achieve that end; and for related purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon 7 November and to be printed. [Bill 188.]

Child Labour

Mr. Jeremy Corbyn, supported by Mr. Terry Lewis, Mr. Andrew Mackinlay, Mr. Alan Simpson, Mr. Ken Livingstone, Ms Diane Abbott, Mr. Tony Banks, Mr. Harry Cohen, Mrs. Alice Mahon, Mr. Robert Parry, Mr. Neil Gerrard and Mr. John Austin-Walker, presented a Bill to give effect to Articles 1 and 2 of the 1973 International Labour Convention No. 138 concerning the minimum age for admission to employment by making it unlawful to employ children under the age of sixteen in a way that is inconsistent with their fullest physical and mental development; to require the Secretary of State to establish a system of regulation to ensure that the law concerning child labour is complied with; and to require the Secretary of State to report to Parliament progress towards the elimination of child labour in the United Kingdom: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon 7 November and to be printed. [Bill 189.]

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Parliamentary Procedure

[Relevant document: The Eighth Report from the Procedure Committee, Session 1994-95, on `Sitting Hours Reform' (HC491).]

4.8 pm

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton): I beg to move,

That--

(1) Standing Order (Consolidation bills) below shall have effect from the beginning of the next Session:

"(1) In this order `a consolidation bill' means a public bill which falls to be considered by the select committee appointed under Standing Order No. 123 (Joint Committee on Consolidation, &c., Bills).

(2) Notices of amendments, new clauses and new schedules to be moved in committee in respect of a consolidation bill may be received by the Clerks at the Table before the bill has been read a second time.

(3) When a motion shall have been made for the second reading, or for the third reading, of a consolidation bill, the question thereon shall be put forthwith.

(4) If a motion that a consolidation bill be not committed is made by a Minister of the Crown immediately after the bill has been read a second time, the motion shall not require notice and the question thereon shall be put forthwith and may be decided at any hour, though opposed."

(2) Standing Order (Law Commission bills) below shall have effect from the beginning of the next Session:

"(1) Any public bill, the main purpose of which is to give effect to proposals contained in a report by either of the Law Commissions, other than a private Member's bill or a bill to which Standing Order (Consolidation bills) applies, shall, when it is set down for second reading, stand referred to a second reading committee, unless-- (a) the House otherwise orders, or

(b) the bill is referred to the Scottish Grand Committee. (2) If a motion that a bill such as is referred to in paragraph (1) above shall no longer stand referred to a second reading committee is made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of public business, the question thereon shall be put forthwith.

(3) The provisions of paragraphs (3) to (6) of Standing Order No. 90 (Second reading committees) shall apply to any bill referred to a second reading committee under paragraph (1) above."

Madam Speaker: I understand that with this, it will be convenient to discuss the following motions:

That with effect from the beginning of the next Session-- (1) Standing Order (Money resolutions and ways and means resolutions in connection with bills) below shall have effect: "(1) The Speaker shall put the questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on motions authorising expenditure in connection with a bill and on ways and means motions in connection with a bill-- (a) forthwith, if such a motion is made at the same sitting as that at which the bill has been read a second time; or

(b) not later than three-quarters of an hour after the commencement of those proceedings, if the motion is made otherwise. (2) Business to which this order applies may be proceeded with at any hour, though opposed."

(2) In Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business) paragraph (1)(d) and the proviso thereto shall be omitted.

That with effect from the beginning of the next Session--

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(1) Standing Order No. 101 (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.) shall be repealed and Standing Order (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation) below shall have effect: "(1) There shall be one or more standing committees, to be called Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation, for the consideration of such instruments (whether or not in draft) as may be referred to them.

(2) Any Member, not being a member of such a standing committee, may take part in the deliberations of the Committee, but shall not vote or make any motion or move any amendment or be counted in the quorum.

(3) Where a Minister of the Crown has given notice of a motion to the effect that an instrument (whether or not in draft) upon which proceedings may be taken in pursuance of an Act of Parliament (other than a draft deregulation order) be approved, the instrument shall stand referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation, unless--

(a) notice has been given by a Minister of the Crown of a motion that the instrument shall not so stand referred, or

(b) the instrument is referred to the Scottish Grand Committee. (4) Where a Member has given notice of--

(a) a motion for an humble address to Her Majesty praying that a statutory instrument be annulled, or a motion of a similar character relating to a statutory instrument, or to any other instrument (whether or not in draft) which may be subject to proceedings in the House in pursuance of a statute, or a motion that the House takes note of a statutory instrument, or

(b) a motion that a measure under the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919 be presented to Her Majesty for her Royal Assent, or a motion relating to an instrument made under such a measure, a motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of public business, that the instrument be referred to such a committee, and the question thereon shall be put forthwith; and if, on the question being put, not fewer than twenty Members rise in their places and signify their objection thereto, the Speaker shall declare that the noes have it.

(5) Each committee shall consider each instrument referred to it on a motion, `That the committee has considered the instrument'; and the chairman shall put any question necessary to dispose of the proceedings on such a motion, if not previously concluded, when the committee shall have sat for one and a half hours (or, in the case of an instrument relating exclusively to Northern Ireland, two and a half hours) after the commencement of those proceedings; and the committee shall thereupon report the instrument to the House without any further question being put.

(6) If any motion is made in the House of the kind specified in paragraphs (3) or (4) of this order, in relation to any instrument reported to the House in accordance with paragraph (5) of this order, the Speaker shall put forthwith the question thereon and such question may be decided at any hour, though opposed."

(2) In paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 84 (Constitution of standing committees) and in paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 86 (Nomination of standing committees) for the words "statutory instruments or draft statutory instruments or measures under the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919 and instruments made under such measures" there shall be substituted the words "instruments (whether or not in draft)".

(3) Standing Order No. 15 (Prayers against statutory instruments, &c. (negative procedure)) shall be entitled "Delegated legislation (negative procedure)"; and at the end of the said Standing Order there shall be added the words "or be disapproved, or words to that effect".

(4) Standing Order (Proceedings under an Act or on European Community documents) below shall have effect:

"(1) The Speaker shall put the questions necessary to dispose of proceedings under any Act of Parliament or on European Community documents not later than one and a half hours

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after the commencement of such proceedings, subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 15 (Delegated legislation (negative procedure)).

(2) Business to which this order applies may be proceeded with at any hour, though opposed."

(5) In Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business) paragraph (1)(b) and the proviso thereto shall be omitted.

(6) Standing Order No. 94F (Scottish Grand Committee (statutory instruments)) shall be entitled "Scottish Grand Committee (delegated legislation)"; in paragraph (1)(a) of the said Standing Order for lines 5 to 7 there shall be substituted the words "of a similar character relating to a statutory instrument or to any other instrument (whether or not in draft) which may be subject to proceedings in the House in pursuance of a statute, or of a motion that the"; in paragraph (1)(b) of the said Standing Order for the words "a statutory instrument or draft statutory instrument" there shall be substituted the words "an instrument (whether or not in draft) upon which proceedings may be taken in pursuance of an Act of Parliament (other than a draft deregulation order)"; and the words "or draft instrument" shall be omitted wherever in the said Standing Order they occur.

(7) For paragraph (2)(e) of Standing Order No. 94A (Scottish Grand Committee (composition and business)) there shall be substituted the following paragraph:

"(e) motions relating to instruments (whether or not in draft) referred to it in accordance with Standing Order No. 94F (Scottish Grand Committee (delegated legislation));".

That with effect from the beginning of the next Session-- (1) Standing Order (House not to sit on certain Fridays) below shall have effect:

"(1) The House shall not sit on ten Fridays in each Session to be appointed by the House.

(2) If a motion to appoint such Fridays is made by a Minister of the Crown the question thereon shall be put forthwith and may be decided at any hour, though opposed.

(3) At its rising on the Thursday before each of the Fridays so appointed the House shall stand adjourned till the following Monday without any question being put, unless it shall have resolved otherwise.

(4) Unless the House shall have resolved to adjourn otherwise than from the previous Thursday to the following Monday, the Fridays so appointed shall be treated as sitting days for the purpose of calculating any period under any order of the House and for the purposes of paragraph (8) of Standing Order No. 18 (Notices of questions, motions and amendments) and of Standing Order No. 62 (Notices of amendments, &c., to bills); and on such Fridays-- (a) notices of questions may be given by Members to the Table Office, and

(b) notices of amendments to bills, new clauses and new schedules and of amendments to Lords amendments may be received by the Public Bill Office,

between eleven o'clock and three o'clock."

(2) Standing Order (Wednesday sittings) below shall have effect: "(1) The House shall meet on Wednesdays at half-past nine o'clock and shall between that hour and two o'clock proceed with a motion for the adjournment of the House made by a Minister of the Crown. (2) Save as provided in paragraphs (3) and (4) below, the subjects for debate on the said motion shall be chosen by ballot under arrangements made by the Speaker; and no subject shall be raised without notice.

(3) On the last Wednesday before any adjournment of the House for more than four days, the subject for debate on the said motion until half-past twelve o'clock shall be "matters to be considered before the forthcoming adjournment".

(4) On not more than three Wednesdays in each Session to be appointed by the Speaker, the subject or subjects for debate on the said motion until half-past twelve o'clock shall be select committee reports chosen by the Liaison Committee.

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(5) Not more than two subjects shall be raised before half-past twelve o'clock, and not more than three between that hour and two o'clock.

(6) A motion for the adjournment of the House not disposed of at two o'clock shall lapse and the sitting shall be suspended until half-past two o'clock; the House will then proceed with private business, motions for unopposed returns and questions; no subsequent motion for the adjournment of the House shall be made until all the questions asked at the commencement of public business have been disposed of; and, save as provided in paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 20 (Adjournment on a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration), no Member other than a Minister of the Crown may make such a motion before the orders of the day or notices of motions shall have been entered upon."

(3) In paragraphs (1) and (2) of Standing Order No. 9 (Sittings of the House) the words "Wednesdays " and "Wednesday" respectively shall be omitted; and in the proviso to paragraph (7) of the said Standing Order, after the word "o'clock" in line 57, there shall be inserted the words "in the evening".

(4) Standing Order No. 10 (Sittings of the House (suspended sittings)) shall be repealed; the reference to the said Standing Order in paragraph (7) of Standing Order No. 9 (Sittings of the House) shall be omitted; and in paragraph (1)(a) of Standing Order No. 133 (Time and manner of presenting petitions) the words from "conclusion" in line 10 to "and" in line 14 shall be omitted. (5) In Standing Order No. 13 (Arrangement of public business) paragraphs (7), (8) and (9) shall be omitted; in paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 9 (Sittings of the House) for the words from "returns" in line 4 to the end of the paragraph there shall be substituted the words "and questions"; in Standing Order No. 15A (New writs) the words "or notices of motion" shall be omitted; in paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 90 (Second reading committees) the words "or notices of motions" in line 15 shall be omitted; and in paragraph (1)(b) of Standing Order No. 133 (Time and manner of presenting petitions) the words "or motions" in line 18 shall be omitted.

(6) In paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 131 (Liaison Committee) the word "and" in line 4 shall be omitted and after the word "Commission" in line 7 there shall be inserted the words "and (c) to report to the House its choice of select committee reports to be debated on such Wednesdays as may be appointed by the Speaker in pursuance of paragraph (4) of Standing Order (Wednesday sittings)".

(7) Standing Order No. 22 (Periodic adjournments) shall be repealed and Standing Order (Periodic adjournments) below shall have effect:

"When a motion shall have been made by a Minister of the Crown for the adjournment of the House for a specified period or periods, the question thereon shall be put forthwith, and may be decided at any hour, though opposed."

(8) Standing Order No. 54 (Consolidated Fund Bills) shall be repealed and Standing Order (Consolidated Fund Bills) below shall have effect:

"When a motion shall have been made for the second reading of a Consolidated Fund or an Appropriation Bill, the question thereon shall be put forthwith, no order shall be made for the committal of the bill and the question for third reading shall be put forthwith; and the said questions may be decided at any hour, though opposed." (9) In paragraph (1)(a) of Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business) the words "or any Consolidated Fund Bill or Appropriation Bill" shall be omitted.

That with effect from the beginning of the next Session Standing Order No. 45A (Short speeches) shall be repealed and the following Standing Order (Short speeches) shall have effect:

"The Speaker may announce at the commencement of proceedings on any motion or order of the day relating to public business that she intends to call Members to speak for not more than ten minutes in the debate thereon, or between certain hours during that debate, and whenever the Speaker

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has made such an announcement she may direct any Member (other than a Minister of the Crown, a Member speaking on behalf of the Leader of the Opposition, or not more than one Member nominated by the leader of the second largest opposition party) who has spoken for ten minutes to resume his seat forthwith."

May I inform the House that I have selected for debate amendments (a), (b) and (c) to motion No. 4. At the conclusion of the joint debate on the motions and the amendments, I will put successively the Questions on motions Nos. 1 to 3. When we come to motion No. 4, I will invite the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) to move amendment (a). If it is not agreed to, amendment (b) will fall. If amendment (a) is agreed to, I will invite the hon. Gentleman to move amendment (b). Once the House has taken a decision on the principle underlying amendments (a) and (b), amendment (c) will fall. Once the amendments have been disposed of, I will put the Question on motions Nos. 4 and 5.

Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am grateful for your explanation of the sequence of events. But am I not right in thinking that amendment (a) and amendment (b), which is a consequential amendment, and amendment (c) are not necessarily mutually exclusive? All three amendments have in common the principle of additional time, or retaining time, for private Members' motions, but if (a) and (b) are carried, there will be four hours for such motions on Wednesdays and if (c) is carried there will be additional time on Mondays. Surely amendment (c) should taken as well, even if (a) and (b) are not carried?

Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich): Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. This is rather more than a procedural motion. Of course, I understand that your view is prescribed by the rules of the House, but it is a matter of great import and I do not believe that the amendments are interchangeable. I hope that you will seriously reconsider the matter, because many of us believe that decisions affecting the House are being taken without proper consultation.

Madam Speaker: In the light of what hon. Members have said, I am prepared to look again at the amendments. We shall proceed with the debate, I shall reconsider the matter and give my decision as soon as I can.

Mr. Newton: It may be for the convenience of the House if I refer to the other four motions on related topics while you, Madam Speaker, are considering the other matters that have just been mentioned. Last December, the House approved a far-reaching package of reforms of the procedures of the House--some elements were expressed in Sessional Orders and others in understandings reached between the Government and the Opposition through the usual channels and recorded in a written answer--which gave effect to recommendations made by the Select Committee on Sittings of the House in 1992. I pay my tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling) who chaired that Committee. Unfortunately, he is unable to be here today due to ill health.

I also pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) and the hon. Members for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Brown) and for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor), with whom the agreement was negotiated. I should also like to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the

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Member for Honiton (Sir P. Emery), who is present this afternoon and is the Chairman of the Procedure Committee, which has reported in such positive terms on the experiment that we conducted this Session.

Our debate last December showed that there were reservations in several parts of the House--eloquently expressed by the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) in a rare but memorable contribution--about the substance of the proposals. I believe--at least, I hope--that many of those reservations have now been overcome, and that the experiment is generally considered to have been a substantial success.

I shall deal first with those elements of the reforms that depend on "best endeavours" and agreements through the usual channels rather than on Standing Orders. Voluntary timetabling of Bills, which is of fundamental importance to the success of the reforms as a whole, has worked well in practice. My perception, which I hope the hon. Member for Dewsbury will confirm, is that the Opposition have had the time they felt appropriate to debate the issues to which they attached importance--at least in general terms.

At the same time, the Government's legislative programme has made progress without the House being kept up late and without the use of measures such as the guillotine. We are not proposing to put those arrangements in Standing Orders. This year's experience has confirmed the view that I formed in the course of our discussions last year: there is no sustainable halfway house between a voluntary agreement reached through the usual channels and something which, to all intents and purposes, is a guillotine.

We have achieved a substantial reduction in late sittings. The average time of rising during the experiment has been significantly earlier--hon. Members who want the details will find them in the Procedure Committee's report--and the occasions on which the House has sat late into the night have been very few: only nine of the 131 sittings during the relevant period lasted beyond midnight. An evening which ends with a vote at 11.30 pm is now regarded as a late night; for the first two Parliaments in which I was present, that would have been regarded as an early night.

We have also succeeded in keeping Thursdays almost entirely free of contentious business after 7 pm, which has been of material assistance to hon. Members when planning their constituency business on Friday and over the weekend.

I have also been able to give the House much earlier notification of recess dates. The Easter and Whitsun recesses were announced just after Christmas and the dates for the summer recess were made known before the end of June. That was substantially better than in most previous years. I am not yet in a position to give the recess dates for the next Session of Parliament, but I hope that I shall be able to give some at a reasonably early stage when we resume.

The House has been generous enough to accept that what I have been able to say on a Thursday about the business for the second week, even though by no means always complete, has helped Members in planning their weekend engagements, particularly when, as in almost every week, I have been able to give a pretty clear indication of the nature of the business on the Thursday, which is the important day for people's planning.

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I want to explain to the House as briefly as I can the main provisions in the five motions amending Standing Orders. To a large extent, they simply restate the Sessional Orders under which this Session's experiment has proceeded.

The first motion, on consolidation Bills and Law Commission Bills, restates the provisions of the Sessional Orders which provide expedited procedures for those law reform measures. The only new provision in the motion is that the question on Second Reading, as well as Third Reading, of a consolidation Bill will be disposed of without debate.

I should emphasise that a different procedure applies to Law Commission Bills that change rather than consolidate the law. That is particularly important in view of some of the exchanges that we had only a few moments ago.

Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock): With regard to the question on Second Reading of a consolidation Bill being put forthwith so that there is no debate, if amendments were tabled there would be the absurd situation that the House would go into Committee. That is rather odd because it would probably result in longer proceedings. I had experience of that only a few days ago when I was able to speak on Second Reading and comment on amendments that I had tabled. Had I been denied that opportunity, I would inevitably have had to make longer speeches on each amendment. That seems rather odd. In addition, on that occasion the Solicitor-General and the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman wanted to compliment the Law Commission on its work, but if there were no Second Reading such an opportunity would be denied them.

Mr. Newton: I shall consider the hon. Gentleman's point in relation to the resolution and comment on it later. But he is right that what I am proposing would deprive my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General of the opportunity to which the hon. Gentleman referred. Therefore, I take this opportunity on behalf of the hon. Gentleman and myself, and no doubt the whole House, to express my thanks to Mr. Justice Brooke, the Law Commission and the draftsmen who served them so well for the valuable work that they do in keeping the statute book in good running repair.

I emphasised that a different procedure applies to those Law Commission Bills that make some changes in the law rather than simply consolidate it. Those Bills will be referred automatically to a Second Reading Committee, but--this is an important point--the Government would expect, as at present, to respond to any request from the Opposition for a Second Reading debate on the Floor of the House. The opportunities for hon. Members to scrutinise the details of those Bills in Committee--this may be of particular importance to the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay)--and on Report will be exactly the same as for any other Bill.

The second motion on money resolutions and Ways and Means resolutions follows the Sessional Orders in providing that they will not be debatable if taken immediately after Second Reading of the Bill to which they relate. I think that it has been generally accepted that that was a sensible change made for the present Session.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Denton and Reddish): Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there have been

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occasions in the past when Second Reading debates have been extended, either to 11 o'clock or to midnight, so that all hon. Members who wished to speak could do so? That is a fairly cumbersome procedure. The big advantage of the money resolution was that an hon. Member who might be cut out of the debate could put pressure on others to shorten their speeches. There was always that safety valve. Why is it necessary to get rid of it?

Mr. Newton: I note the hon. Gentleman's point. It is a matter of judgment, but the former arrangements led, in my view, to some highly artificial debating in respect of the relatively narrow terms of money and, especially, ways and means motions. I will not disguise my personal feeling that the change that was made was for the general convenience of the House, and that a greater application of arrangements for the Chair to limit the length of speeches has proved the right way in which to tackle the problem to which the hon. Gentleman refers.

Mrs. Dunwoody: Is the Leader of the House aware that discussion of the monetary aspect of a Bill often allows hon. Members to make points that they would not normally make on Second Reading? With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman, his description of such debate as "highly artificial" reflects more his wish for his legislation to be passed speedily than the true interests of the Back Bencher who may have been squeezed out of an important Second Reading debate.

Mr. Newton: I believe that the view that I have expressed is by no means confined to the Leader of the House. There was a general feeling that it was more convenient for the House to know when a Second Reading debate would end and when the votes would take place. I understand what the hon. Lady has said--and I respect her judgment, even if I do not agree with it-- but I feel that the way in which to tackle this is to apply the so-called 10-minute rule to speeches, rather than extending debates into the night.

Mr. Spearing: Does the Leader of the House agree that some Bills involve important financial issues? The Channel Tunnel Rail Link Bill, for instance, was virtually predicated on finance, which may not have been a major feature of the specific Second Reading debate. The same applies to the Mental Health (Patients in the Community) Bill. Surely to make such a change because the majority view in the Government favours it is to reduce the opportunities for Back Benchers who wish to make specifically financial and sometimes crucial points.

Mr. Newton: I note the hon. Gentleman's point, according him my usual respect. I feel, however, that a proper Second Reading debate-- especially if the speaking rule that I mentioned is applied by the Chair-- provides a perfectly adequate opportunity for hon. Members to make the points that they wish to make.

I entirely accept that, in the end, the House must make a judgment, and decide whether it prefers my view and the view reflected in the Sessional Orders--which I am seeking to carry into the Standing Orders--or the view expressed by the hon. Members who have intervened during the past few minutes.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) rose --

Mr. Newton: I sense, however, that we are about to hear from another hon. Member.

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Mr. Dalyell: Does the Leader of the House accept that some of us hold the considered view, rightly or wrongly, that had Michael Foot and the late Jack Mendelson been confined to 10-minute speeches, this country would almost certainly have sent troops to Vietnam-- rightly or, as some of us might think, wrongly? In the 1960s it was Michael Foot, Jack Mendelson and others who dissuaded the House of Commons from what might have been the wishes of the then Prime Minister, Harold Wilson. In 10-minute speeches, neither Michael Foot nor Jack Mendelson, nor anyone else, would have had a chance.

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