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Mr. Butterfill: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that helpful intervention.
John Holt, a postman from Portree on the Isle of Skye, wrote to The Scotsman on the issue, saying:
That comes from a postman from one of the most northerly parts of Scotland, and I therefore believe that the case with regard to postmen has been considerably exaggerated.
I now wish to refer to farmers. It has been suggested that farmers are unanimously against the Bill and--I must say--that certainly was the case some years ago. Farmers were very solidly against the Bill then, but that is not the case today. There have been enormous changes in farming and in farming methods, and the industry is quite different from what it was when last we debated this issue in the House.
The National Farmers Union has been traditionally hostile to the measure but is now entirely neutral, and, in a letter to me, it confirmed that many NFU members see considerable advantages in the Bill. It is interesting to note why that may be the case.
For example, Scottish dairy farmers are considered to have the greatest problem with the Bill's provisions. Dairy farmers keep their cattle in nearly all winter, and only let them out after milking in the morning--which will be done in the dark whether the Bill goes through or not. The farmers let them out into the fields later if the weather is clement, to allow them to enjoy what little daylight is available. The cattle are brought in again in the afternoon.
If the Bill goes through, farmers will be able to leave the cattle out for longer and bring them in at night, so there are advantages for dairy farmers in the measure. Similarly, Mr. Ross--the president of the Scottish NFU-- confirmed in a radio debate with me only last week that the Bill would not create problems for dairy farmers in Scotland.
Mr. John McWilliam (Blaydon):
The excellent briefing provided by the Library says that, if the Bill becomes law, it will not be sunrise in Newcastle--near my constituency--on 21 December until 9.29 in the morning, while sunset will be at half-past 4 or 20 minutes to 5 in the afternoon. Where is the hon. Gentleman getting these extra two hours from? It seems to me that the sun will rise when it always rises, and set when it always sets.
Mr. Butterfill:
The hon. Gentleman would do himself a service by reading the rest of the briefing, as he would then understand how the measure works. We want to move an hour of daylight from the morning to the afternoon. My point is that, while dairy farmers will still be milking indoors and in the dark, they will have an hour of extra daylight in the afternoon, to the benefit of their stock and their lives.
I shall move from dairy to arable farmers, from whom I have received letters supporting the Bill. The extra hour would mean that arable farmers would be able to do their spinning and top dressing in the spring at a time when they cannot do it at the moment. In the autumn, farmers will be able to harvest their crops in the late afternoon and early evening--
Mr. John Home Robertson (East Lothian):
They do that anyway.
Mr. Butterfill:
The hon. Gentleman says that they do it anyway, but the point is that, if the Bill goes through, they will be able to do it in daylight. We are all familiar with arable farmers harvesting in the dark with large combines with lights. To the extent that there will be more light, the Bill will have advantages for arable farms.
The only group of farmers that the president of the Scottish NFU stated would be disadvantaged by the Bill are those who have their stock out on the hillsides--sheep farmers and beef farmers. They keep their stock outdoors, and the difficulty for them will be that they will not be able to get out to see their stock until one hour later than at the moment. That, it is alleged, will totally disrupt their lives.
I frankly find that difficult to believe, because there are an awful lot of things that a farmer can do in the morning. The cattle and sheep do not know what the time is--they operate on nature's clock, and they are not aware whether
it is Greenwich mean time, British summer time or double summer time. The animals need to be dealt with when their natural body clocks say so.
Mr. Gallie:
One reason why it is important for farmers to see their stock before 11 o'clock in the morning is that they depend on vets, and 11am will be already halfway through the vet's day. If everyone comes in with messages for the vet at that time, it will create great pressure, and animal welfare--a very important issue these days-- could suffer.
Mr. Butterfill:
I sympathise with the position of the veterinary profession. My hon. Friend may know that I am on the council of the People's Dispensary for Sick Animals, the largest employer of vets in the country apart from the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. If the Bill goes through, vets will be able to come out and look at animals later in the afternoon--they will simply transpose one hour of their working day to the afternoon. It will not make it impossible for the work to be done.
For a farmer to say that he cannot accommodate an extra hour of darkness in the morning is puzzling, as there is an awful lot for farmers to do. The farmers I know are constantly complaining that they must fill in forms for the European Community and others. They complain about their VAT returns, and that they have a struggle to do the school run in the morning and get back to their livestock. They will have much more time if the Bill goes through to do all of those things. I believe that many of the assertions made by Opposition Members about the predicament of farmers are totally ill-founded.
I regret that the leader of the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond), is not in his place. He tells me that it will be impossible for his farmers if the Bill is enacted. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is not present. In his own constituency, however, the Buchan branch of the Scottish NFU took a vote on the issue this week. The result was that eight to one of the hon. Gentleman's own branch of farmers voted in favour of the Bill. It appears that SNP Members do not know what farmers think in their constituencies.
Mr. Welsh:
I know full well what happened in Buchan, but that is one NFU branch among many in the area. Producing one NFU branch, one postman and one farmer hardly shows a mass movement towards the hon. Gentleman's point of view. He asked for Scottish opinion, but he has been loth to hear mine.
The proof of the pudding is the last time that the experiment took place in Scotland. It was a disaster, and Parliament rejected it. Portugal listened to the blandishments that the hon. Gentleman is now presenting in 1972 and went to central European time. It is now regretting doing so, for reasons that have been expressed this morning, and wishes to return to Greenwich mean time. The hon. Gentleman's experiment failed in the past. The Scottish people know that, and reject what he is putting forward.
Mr. Butterfill:
I listened to the hon. Gentleman's speech with considerable interest. What he says is not borne out by the correspondence that I have had. Nor do I believe that the position that the Scottish NFU has taken, uniquely--it is not the position taken by the NFU elsewhere in the kingdom--is entirely representative. Some of its branches have had the nous to take a poll on
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich):
Will the hon. Gentleman make it clear--I think that I have understood him well--that he is suggesting that farmers should rejig the whole of their working day, and that business men and financiers are incapable of doing so? I am not clear about the logic of that.
Mr. Butterfill:
The hon. Lady may wish to know that many farmers believe that what is proposed will give them an advantage. That was the point that I was trying to make to them. Many farmers have written to say that they agree. The NFU has confirmed to me in writing that a large proportion of its members are in favour. I am not seeking to impose something on an unwilling group of farmers. Farmers have changed their view. They have come round to the majority view of other industries.
It is alleged that builders and others who work outdoors are vulnerable on safety issues. I am a chartered surveyor by profession. I have spent--
Mr. Robert G. Hughes:
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is certain activity in the Chamber, if it can be so described. The hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) is clearly operating in a different time zone, and is sleeping. Should we not proceed to the next business?
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
That is not a point of order for me. All sorts of things have been going on this morning. Chatting has been taking place, and jokes have been made.
"It really doesn't matter whether the clock changes or not. It wouldn't make my work any harder. I am aware when I'm driving my van to watch out for children going to school. But I would just as soon have an extra hour in the evening. I hate it when it gets dark at four."
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