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Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley): At least I have been quiet.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have already said that the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) should be given a fair hearing. He has a right to put his case. Some hon. Members may not agree with him, but he still has a right to put his case. I hope that he will now be given a reasonable hearing. The chit-chat and joking must cease.
Mr. Butterfill: I am grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall try to make some progress. I have given way on many occasions. I am conscious that many hon. Members want to speak.
As I have said, I am a chartered surveyor. I have been a director of a number of building companies, including companies that operate in Scotland and Scandinavia. I am very familiar with the activities of the building industry.
We operate in a relatively mild climate. Compared with the climate in which the building industry operates in other parts of Europe, including Scandinavia, and in north America, our builders are blessed with--
Mr. Bill Walker:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Butterfill:
No. I must make progress. I have had too many interruptions already.
We are blessed with the Gulf stream, which warms our shores. Although, from time to time, we have brief periods of extreme weather, by and large we have much
milder weather than many of our continental neighbours. They all work satisfactorily in climatic conditions that are far worse than our own.
It is not true to say that builders are opposed to the measure. Many builders have written to me. I have received letters from Tarmac, Laing and Bovis, for example, all telling me that the measure will assist their activities. When the Federation of Master Builders last voted on the issue, the result was 45 to 35 in favour.
I have had interesting letters from contractors in Scotland. For example, the Seamless Roofing Company in Scotland wrote:
That is a Scottish builder. I could quote many others.
It is alleged that other groups of workers would be put at risk. The British Safety Council, which is Britain's largest industrial safety organisation, wrote to me on 17 January, wholeheartedly supporting the Bill. That is the organisation that is principally concerned with safety at work.
I do not underestimate the argument that certain groups in the population will be inconvenienced, but I believe that that inconvenience has been grotesquely exaggerated by many of the Bill's opponents. It is clear that the Bill has widespread support throughout the United Kingdom. There is overwhelming support among the population. Polls show over 70 per cent. in favour.
Mr. James Couchman (Gillingham):
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Butterfill:
I know that my opponents are well-meaning. In my opinion, however, they are living in a time warp of about 150 years ago. The country wants the Bill. Parliament should be allowed to vote freely on it.
Mr. Couchman:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. David Marshall (Glasgow, Shettleston):
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Butterfill:
No. I am sorry. I am into my peroration, and I am not giving way.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Member made it clear that he is not giving way.
Mr. Butterfill:
I shall give way for the last time to my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman).
Mr. Couchman:
My hon. Friend has been generous throughout the morning. Before he finishes, will he say whether he has a frisson of guilt about attacking the world standard of time, Greenwich mean time, with his Bill?
Mr. Butterfill:
I was sure that that issue would be raised, if not now at a later stage. I shall deal with it now. Of course
I hope that Parliament will feel able to debate the Bill freely, and particularly to vote on it freely. I hope that those who oppose the Bill will have the courage to allow it to go to a free vote and will not attempt to talk it out, which I regard as an entirely undemocratic process. I accept that I have spoken for some time, but I have been most generous in giving way to all those who sought to intervene.
Mr. John Home Robertson (East Lothian):
The hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) sounded a bit like a snake oil salesman at one stage in his speech. He said that the Bill would create extra daylight, that there would be rejoicing in the streets, and that it would even make Scottish farmers happy. I have news for him, not only as a Scottish farmer, but as a parent of children who have to join a school bus about as far south in Scotland as one can possibly get at 10 past eight in the morning. I do not want them to have to get on a bus in darkness. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Bill will not cause rejoicing.
The hon. Gentleman quoted some curious data from an opinion poll and said that there was massive support for the proposition in Scotland. If he were to put it to the people of Scotland, or anywhere else in the world, that extra daylight was on offer--rather like longer holidays or longer summers--I suppose that they would say they that wanted it, but it simply cannot be done.
Mrs. Anne Campbell (Cambridge):
Does my hon. Friend accept that the consumer survey was carried out by a very respectable organisation, National Opinion Poll? I am sure that it framed its questions in such a way as not to cause the bias that my hon. Friend suggests.
Mr. Home Robertson:
I am sure that my hon. Friend is right, but we are all politicians and we know that it is possible prove almost anything from different sources of data, whether polls or academic research.
As a farmer, I should like to dispose of the argument that the principal opposition to the proposed legislation comes from the agricultural lobby; it does not. The hon. Gentleman went on at great length about Scottish cows. I put it to him, with great respect, that Scottish cows could not give a damn what the clock says. Dairymen going about their work are not necessarily affected, but their families are. If the dairyman is expected to get up to milk his cows in the morning darkness, his wife will have to get going at the same time, perhaps to go to work.
[Hon. Members: "Why?"] Because if we change the clocks, other employers will be affected as well, and children will have to join buses to go to school in the dark, so it is not quite as simple as the hon. Gentleman suggests.
When I was elected to Parliament an awful long time ago, I was aware that I had the honour of becoming a member of an extremely important, august and powerful
body and that we could amend all sorts of laws, but it never entered my head that anybody would be dotty enough to try to alter the laws of physics and the solar system. That seems to be what we face today. I suppose that there is a precedent, not from an English king, but from a Danish king of England--King Canute, who tried to hold back the tide and got his feet wet. We are in the same science fiction territory with the Bill.
Mr. Foulkes:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Home Robertson:
I know that my hon. Friend is always up with the lark and knows what the sunrise looks like, so let us hear from him now.
Mr. Foulkes:
And I am bright and awake, unlike the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes), who has left.
Will my hon. Friend condemn the opponents of the Bill who talk about daylight robbery and accuse the supporters of the Bill of being time bandits? No one is taking away any daylight, just as no one is creating extra daylight. We are talking about better use of existing daylight, whether in the north, south, east or west.
Mr. Home Robertson:
My hon. Friend is a dear friend and I know how interested he is early morning activities, but he has rashly drawn my attention to the title of the Bill--British Time (Extra Daylight) Bill. Both wrong. It is neither British time, nor will it create extra daylight.
"The general pattern for most building works is of a relatively slow start in the morning with men and materials being organised. Only then does the actual construction phase start. When daylight hours are short it is infinitely preferable to allocate them to this latter period. We find in our own company that we waste daylight in the morning and desperately need it in the afternoon. Do not accept the argument that sites close between 3.00 and 4.00 pm. With the universal prevalence of 714s"--
that is, self-employed status--
"5.00 to 6.00 is now the norm."
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