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Mr. Hain: I thank my hon. Friend, and I pay tribute to his distinguished service as a telecommunications engineer before coming to the House.
Postman Paddy is also extremely angry, as my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Miss Hoey) says.
Wales, being further west and further north than almost every other part of the country with the exception of Scotland, is worse hit than anywhere else except Scotland. Many parts of the Scottish nation will not see sunrise until 10 am. In most parts of Wales, the sun will not rise in midwinter until after 9 am. In the north of Wales, in places such as Wrexham and Aberystwyth, it will be nearer to 9.30 am.
Almost everywhere in Wales will be worse off. Even in a south-eastern city such as Cardiff, there would be a loss of 54 days, when sunrise would be 9 am or later, compared with a gain of 50 days when sunset would be as late as 5.30 pm. Wrexham would lose 62 days, when sunrise would be 9 am or later, compared with a gain of 43 days when sunset would be as late as 5.30 pm.
In the following towns, where the sun would not rise before 9 am, Swansea would lose 56 days, Pembroke 58 days, Aberystwyth 57 days and Llandudno 62 days of morning darkness.
Mr. Jon Owen Jones (Cardiff, Central):
I am listening with interest to the distribution of days lost and days gained. I want my hon. Friend to explain to me, because I cannot quite understand it, how the Bill would affect the rotation of the earth to create a loss or a gain of days.
Mr. Hain:
My hon. Friend is a good friend and I said at the beginning of my remarks that other hon. Friends, like him, will be voting on the other side of the debate. I do not challenge his sincerity, but he does not understand my point. In the city of Cardiff, in his constituency, the sun will rise later than 9 am on an extra 54 days. That is the point that I am making.
Mr. Flynn:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Hain:
I am sorry, but I must make progress, although my hon. Friend is a close friend. He said that he would heckle me in this debate, and I am enjoying the experience.
Almost 90,000 outdoor workers in Wales would be affected by the change. They would include farmers, building workers, milkmen, postmen, postwomen and others. In the winter, they would stumble around in the dark in icy, wet and snowy conditions. Schoolchildren, old people, car drivers and early shoppers would be in
much greater danger. Many roads in rural and in valley areas, such as those in my constituency, do not have pavements and, as a consequence, pedestrians also would be at greater risk.
In conclusion, I must draw the attention of Members of Parliament from Welsh constituencies to what occurred when the issue was last debated substantially in this place in December 1970. The then hon. Member for Carmarthen, Gwynoro Jones, spoke about the widespread opposition throughout Wales, especially rural Wales, to the change that had occurred. I also remind the House that Wales Members of Parliament opposed the change and voted overwhelmingly to reject the experiment.
For me, the clincher to this argument is what occurred last time. We are not talking about hypotheticals or the analysis of figures or statistics upon which we can draw different conclusions. The British Standard Time Act 1968, which imposed an experimental period of daylight saving between 27 October 1968 and 31 October 1971, was rejected overwhelmingly by the House because it was a disaster.
It is fascinating and instructive to scrutinise the debate of 2 December 1970. It followed what the then hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton, Mr. Eric Heffer, described as a
"revolt from below" against the change. The debate also referred to a national opinion poll survey of February 1970 which found that 58 per cent. of the public opposed the change. That is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact. The Government White Paper Cmnd. 4512 was released in 1970. Paragraph 18 states:
They were the results of a contemporary analysis conducted at the time; they were not a retrospective invention of views or a reconsideration of the statistics.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Tom Sackville):
I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) on introducing the debate. However, I cannot be as helpful as I would like, as the Government are neutral with regard to the British Time (Extra Daylight) Bill.
Today's debate fills me with a sense of relief that the Government continue to be neutral. I shall not waste too much time rehearsing all the arguments which are being made so eloquently, because that would take time from the many Members who wish to speak. I would also be in danger of displaying my own prejudices.
There are strong views on both sides of the argument. Among the advantages cited for the change is the anticipated savings in road casualties. In that connection,
I confirm that the Transport Research Laboratory research published in 1989 suggests that a change to single/double summer time would result in a general reduction in casualties in Great Britain. On the other hand, an interim report published on Wednesday by the Scottish Office suggests that the effect in Scotland would be neutral.
It has been said that the change will benefit tourism and outdoor leisure activities. As has been mentioned, there could be benefits for elderly people who are fearful of being out after dark. In that connection, Home Office analysis of British crime surveys concluded that, although fewer offences are committed in daylight, increasing evening daylight could have different effects on different crimes--in other words, the data are inconclusive. However, the Government have received representations from Age Concern and other organisations that suggest that longer evenings could reduce fear of crime, particularly among the elderly.
We have also been told that among the advantages cited for the change would be easier travel and business communications with continental Europe. On the other side of the argument, those who urge the retention of the status quo point to the drawbacks of darker mornings.
Mr. John Marshall:
Is my hon. Friend aware that the change in the hour proposed by the Bill would create difficulties for certain religion communities? Is he aware that, for orthodox and observant members of the Jewish community, their festivities are determined not by the hour of the day, but by sunrise and sunset. Their morning prayers would have to take place an hour later, the Yom Kippur fast would be broken a hour later, and in the summer Shabbat would go out a hour later. In London, that could be as late as midnight. It would cause great difficulty for some members of the community.
Mr. Sackville:
That is an interesting point, of which I hope House will take due note.
Mr. Butterfill:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Sackville:
I shall not give way again, so as to allow time for hon. Members who are waiting to speak.
On the side of those who wish to retain the status quo, darker mornings and icy roads could cause more accidents. Dark mornings would have a disproportionate impact on those in the north of the country and those who work out of doors. The Government recognise that many people in Scotland are concerned about the proposed change.
On a technical point, if the Bill were to become law, the change would take effect at the end of October 1997. The clocks would not be turned back one hour as usual, keeping Britain on GMT plus one hour for the winter months. The clocks would go forward in March to GMT plus two hours for the summer. That would move Britain into the time zone known as single/double summer time, or central European time.
I confirm that, technically, such a changeover would be feasible, although we have heard representations from those who operate charter airlines about the time lag needed to renegotiate landing slots.
Mr. Doug Henderson (Newcastle upon Tyne, North):
I join the Minister in congratulating the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) on instigating this lively and interesting debate. We are put in our best light when we discuss issues as we find them.
We were told originally that there would be a free vote among Government Members, but that prompts the question, when is a free vote not a free vote? The answer is, when representations have been made to the Prime Minister by the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mr. Forsyth), who was apparently told by his advisers that a number of Scottish seats might be vulnerable were the Government to back the Bill.
Normally, the right hon. Gentleman is not a man of caution but when it was pointed out that his own seat is one of the most vulnerable, he uncharacteristically displayed the cautious side of his nature and convinced the Prime Minister of his view. Apparently, a free vote is not a free vote when it is a neutral vote. I understand that Ministers will abstain--except Scottish Ministers, who have been given been given a licence to vote against the Bill.
"North-west of a line running from Devon to Tees-side, particularly in Scotland, people, especially women, the elderly, and outdoor workers felt greatly inconvenienced by the change and strongly favoured a return to the old system".
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