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Mr. Salmond: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Henderson: No, because that would deny time to other hon. Members who wish to speak. I will look to see which hon. Gentleman behind me asked me to give way. Having done so, I will stick to my original decision.

Transport systems, especially those closely linked with Europe, would clearly benefit from time co-ordination, and obviously it would suit business organisations to have similar starting and finishing times as the rest of Europe. Many arguments have been made about the benefits that the change would bring to tourism, especially in respect of afternoon activities. However, like my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), I am not convinced that anyone would choose a holiday destination on the basis of the time zone in a particular location.

I understood also the forceful arguments made by my hon. Friends the Members for Neath and for Wigan (Mr. Stott) and by my close colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam), in an intervention, when they spoke of the difficulties that the Bill would create for many early-morning workers-- particularly postal workers, who have an obligation to

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deliver mail early in the day. The construction industry has changed from years ago and would be affected less, but still significantly.

Several hon. Members spoke about the Bill's effect on Scotland and the north of Scotland, many economic interests, and people's life styles. No one put that point better than my hon. Friend the Member for Western Isles (Mr. Macdonald), who said that, before people vote for change, they should live in Stornaway in winter and see if they really like it--a telling point on behalf of people living in the northern part of the kingdom.

I see many elderly people in my constituency walking to clubs on winter afternoons, and arguably they would benefit from the Bill.

Miss Hoey: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Henderson: No, I do not think that I should give way.

I have not followed some of the arguments that have been made, such as those made by farmers--but, there again, perhaps I have never understood the arguments made by the farming community. That community usually makes its arguments in a united way, but it appears that farmers are divided on this matter, depending on which part of the country they farm in, and what type of farming they are involved in. I am not sure that the House is able to divide on the basis of what we have been told by farming interests.

The most specious arguments made by the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West and his followers have been on the subject of crime. I have no doubt that the criminals in Newcastle will be happy to thieve at time-and-a-half or double time if that is all that is available to them, and they will not be influenced by the proposed change.

On accidents, I--like a number of hon. Members-- could be heavily convinced by arguments about not only road safety but other safety issues, but I am not convinced that the argument is telling either way. I have seen some arguments that having more daylight in the afternoon will reduce accidents, but they are countered by those who say that more accidents will be caused by more icy and foggy mornings.

Labour Members have been given a free vote, and will make their minds up based on some of the arguments that they have accepted and some that they have not. It is their decision and, on this occasion, they will have to do without the excellent assistance usually provided by hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon). I am sure that they will manage today.

1.11 pm

Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay): When I woke up this morning, I looked in my wardrobe to see what I ought to wear to suit the occasion. Should I wear my tartan weskit--it is a good Tory tartan--to express my support for our good friends from north of the border, with whom I have the greatest sympathy? Or should I put on my iridescent armbands and my yellow fluorescent flak jacket, because that is what children used to wear to school in the days of the horrible experiment?

I was a young schoolteacher in those days, and I remember my depression at having to get up in the pitch dark and go to work on icy pavements. We keep hearing

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in this debate about road accidents, but we have heard nothing about pavement accidents. Lots of children had bad falls on their way to school in the pitch dark. I remember children being half asleep in a class with all the lights blazing. I even remember that the third of a pint milk bottles took an extra hour to thaw out. We had to postpone the time that the children could have their school milk, because there was not enough daylight to thaw the bottles.

Those are the real facts of life during that nightmare experiment. In Britain, people tend to expect small children to go to bed around dusk, but parents had a devil of a job getting their children to bed at the usual time. It was broad daylight, and the children wanted to be up and outdoors because, in those days, they could play outdoors.

I was surprised by the argument that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) advanced on that subject, since parents these days do not let their children out to play after school, because they are frightened of leaving them alone in the street. The argument that they will be given extra time to play is bogus in today's unfortunate circumstances.

The experiment was thoroughly disliked, and if we are concerned mainly about our children--as we should be-- we should not be listening to arguments from well-heeled business men who want to catch planes one hour later to go to business meetings in Brussels, if that puts our children to the bother and danger of going out in the pitch dark.

We also worried in those days--

Mr. Butterfill: When my hon. Friend refers to fat cats, is she talking about the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents or the Child Accident Prevention Trust, both of which support the Bill?

Mrs. Gorman: I am interested that my hon. Friend should raise that point. We tend to think that the people or organisations that give us fancy statistics in great glossy journals--paid for the by the poor old taxpayer, of course--always get it right. The Transport Research Laboratory got it all wrong when we were contemplating the M1 and the M25--I remember these things, which shows how old I am. Its usage figures were completely wrong. The M1 was much too small, as was the M25. As I have said, the laboratory's predictions were completely wrong. We must not take too much notice of statistics. We all know that it is possible to prove anything.

Is the House aware that there are statistics that tell us that, if we are exposed to more sunlight, we are more likely to get skin cancer? We are told that we will have more leisure time if the Bill is enacted, and that we shall be able to roam around in the summer. What will we do with all the people turning to the national health service with lumps and bumps all over their skin?

Mr. Maxton: When the hon. Lady dismisses road accident statistics and other research, she reminds me of the addictive smoker who refuses to believe that smoking causes lung cancer or heart disease.

Mrs. Gorman: We all know that the conditions on our roads now cannot be compared with safety measures such as lollipop people.

I remember people complaining bitterly about their electricity bills when we last conducted the experiment. Schools and businesses used much more electricity because of the dark mornings.

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Most of the arguments about safety are bogus, not least because everybody knows that car drivers, early in the morning, are much more likely to be grumpy, sleepy and dopey as they drive to schools. When the previous experiment took place, if someone did not get knocked down by a bus or a car, there was a good chance of suffering a fracture on his or her way to work.

It is not only children who are out early in the morning, or middle-aged people. Elderly people go out to work in the early morning on slippery pavements. Watch the people leaving this building who have come in to clean for us in the early hours. About 60 or 70 per cent. of them are women in my age group.

Miss Hoey: Does the hon. Lady agree with me that, in her constituency and mine, elderly people are to be seen queuing outside post offices waiting for them to open? If the Bill is enacted, they will be queuing in the dark in London.

Mrs. Gorman: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention.

Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley): Does my hon. Friend agree that the vast majority of schoolchildren go to school in daylight and return in daylight? If the Bill is enacted, the vast majority of schoolchildren, if not all of them, will go to school in the dark, and gain no benefit at the end of the day.

Mrs. Gorman: I could not agree more with my hon. Friend.

There is also the television factor. We have time zones for television. After a 9 pm, 10 pm, or even later deadline, the blue-movie brigade get their wares on the airs. If children are all to be up and bright and watching television, what are we to do? Are we to shove soft porn into the small hours of the morning? That might be a good idea. It will be difficult, however, to control children's viewing. They will be wide awake and wanting to watch television at 11 pm, I promise the House. That will still be daylight to them in the height of summer.

We have heard so much about polls: people being polled for this and for that. We have heard about the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents in that context. Many of those polled seem to be in what I call the soft underbelly of employment. They are the white-collar chaps who leave home at 8 am to go to work. They do not have to be in the office until 10 am. The great majority of working people, however, are not in that category.

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