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Mr. Michael Fabricant (Mid-Staffordshire): I wonder whether, in the new spirit of openness following the Nolan report, the hon. Gentleman would like to tell us how much he received from the privatisation of West Midlands Travel plc? Indeed, could it possibly be argued that he is advocating its case here?
Mr. Thomas McAvoy (Glasgow, Rutherglen) rose--
Mr. Snape: I shall reply to the hon. Gentleman's question in a moment; in the meantime, I shall give way to my hon. Friend.
Mr. McAvoy: We have just witnessed the pathetic sight of a Tory Whip going round the Chamber with a copy of the Register of Members' Interests trying to stir up sleaze. Opposition Members know that that belongs firmly on the Conservative Benches.
Mr. Snape: First, let me deal with the question of whether any benefit can accrue to the company of which I am a non-executive director from the modernisation of the west coast main line. I honestly believe that there is no such benefit: we run the stage carriage service in Birmingham, and I can see no connection. However, for obvious reasons, I declared an interest.
Conservative Members attack Opposition Members for having no business connections. They say that we know nothing about business; indeed, they say that we are unemployable. I was originally elected to the board of West Midlands Travel by both management and trade unions, and was re-elected by what I can only describe as eastern-European-type majorities--between 93 per cent. and 95 per cent. of the work force. As for the remuneration that I receive, if the hon. Member for
Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant) is sensible enough to read the annual report--as requested by Cadbury--he will find exactly what he wants to know.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse):
Order. The debate should not be delayed by arguments of this nature. If complaints are made against any hon. Member, we now have a Parliamentary Commissioner to whom to refer them.
Mr. Snape:
Conservative Members do not seek to make complaints; they seek to draw inferences. The matter referred to by the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire was the subject of legal action between myself and The Daily Star, which led to an apology by the newspaper--and to insignificant damages, I am afraid; nevertheless, a small contribution was received with thanks.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood on her current portfolio. She has spent the past few years dealing with what have been called--I say this in no derogatory way--women's issues. I feel that better public transport--particularly in regard to buses--is definitely a women's issue. For too many years, the provision and design of buses appear to have been dictated by male accountants rather than the needs of customers. It is about time that bus designers took account of the fact that many daytime users are women, and that many of those women have shopping and buggies containing young children. The sooner that bus designers and operators cater for that market, the better the service will be.
Sir Peter Fry (Wellingborough):
I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman has had to say about comfort on buses. Does he agree that all parties in the House must support the Government to prevent the European Community from insisting on a seating plan that reduces the number of seats and increases the number of standing passengers?
Mr. Snape:
Indeed. The great difference between bus journeys here and those on the continent is that, in many continental cities, journeys are comparatively short and standing is much more acceptable that it would be in the United Kingdom. I support the hon. Gentleman's plea: we should be left to design buses suitable for the British market. I hope that the Secretary of State will also support that idea.
I do not wish to hog the debate, but I should like to say a little about the aftermath of bus deregulation. I want to persuade the Secretary of State, for as long as he holds his present post--I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood will soon take that post from him--of the need to improve bus services throughout the United Kingdom.
It is all very well for local authorities to create bus lanes and impose restrictions on parking, but all too often--as we know to our cost--such restrictions are not observed by motorists. Few experiences are more annoying than sitting in a motor car in a traffic queue and watching people deliberately flout the regulations by driving up bus lanes. The police will say, understandably, that they have not the resources to police the bus lanes, but I am afraid that until there is proper enforcement we shall not persuade motorists to leave their cars at home--and it must be a question of persuasion. I am sure that the Secretary of State will agree that people cannot be compelled not to drive to and from work. Until we can
provide bus, rail and light-rail services that are nearly as quick and comfortable as private cars, exhortation will remain just that.
Let me take the Secretary of State further along the same road--if that is not too dreadful a pun. We also need to introduce quality thresholds for buses. One of the problems of deregulation is that, when reputable operators seek to run a comprehensive service, that service is frequently undermined by operators who purchase second-hand vehicles and run them on the busiest routes for a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the evening. I am not sure whether that is what the Government intended in the 1986 legislation, but it is certainly not a sensible way of trying to attract people out of their cars. We do not want town and city centres throughout the country--particularly during rush hours-- to be cluttered with ancient buses, many of which look as though they ought to be in Lord Montagu's museum.
We need proper standards of vehicle specification, and proper standards of investment in new vehicles. We need proper driver training, and proper publicity and service standards. The comprehensive service that many reputable operators run throughout the country is being undermined by certain people who are attracted by the cheap end of the business. We also need to examine--as I know the Government are--the environmental impact of buses, and new technologies.
Many reputable companies--I will not talk specifically about mine, in case the Government Whip rushes in with yet another copy of the Register of Members' Interests-- are anxious to look at new technologies. Let me remind the Secretary of State that a compressed natural gas public service vehicle costs around £140,000, as against about
£110,000 for a conventional bus. If the passenger transport authorities, the local authorities and the Department of Transport were prepared to participate in a programme backing the introduction of such vehicles, we could do a good deal to reduce the pollution about which people in many towns and cities are rightly concerned. Operators will not buy and introduce such vehicles if at the busiest time on a route their profitability is undermined by the activities of those of whom I spoke earlier.
I apologise to hon. Members for detaining them for so long. Regardless of what hon. Members read in the Register of Members' Interests I have participated in debates on these issues since I was elected to the House more than 20 years ago. For obvious reasons, I hope that the Minister will not be in post for much longer, but while he is there, I welcome the fact that perhaps he is a little more open-minded than some of his colleagues. I hope that, when my hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood takes over, she will have a fresh look at bus and rail services because behind their improvement lies the improvement of the general economy of this country.
Several hon. Members rose--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I understand that the winding-up speeches are to start at 9.20. That leaves 60 minutes for the remainder of the Back-Bench speeches. Six hon. Members hope to catch my eye during that hour and most of them have been here for most of the debate. I hope that that will be considered by those hon. Members who speak.
Mr. William Powell (Corby):
We always listen with interest and respect to the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) when he speaks on transport issues. I hope that he will forgive me when I say that I do not propose to follow his remarks. However, I listened carefully to his speech, and perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Sir P. Fry), who understands these issues better than I do, will have some observations--if he is called.
The general background to the debate is investment, and I shall speak about that issue as I see it in my constituency. During the 12 or 13 years that I have been in the House, there has been massive public investment in virtually all areas of my constituency. There has been investment in industry under the Industry Act 1975. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Field), who has left the Chamber, said that he was pleased that his constituency was now an assisted area.
If there is better news than that of becoming an assisted area, it is that an area is no longer assisted. That has happened in my constituency, and since the announcement, the decline in unemployment has been accelerating. Investment in the private sector has continued robustly to expand, and more and more industry is moving in without any public subsidy provided through assisted area status. That is on top of the expansion of existing companies, which is also happening at a robust rate.
There has been massive investment in roads, and that has brought about an enormous improvement, most of all to the A14, but also to many of the less important roads. There has been no investment in railways but that is because I have no railway stations in my constituency. My constituents use either the excellent rail system in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough, that in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, or the one in the constituency of the chairman of the Conservative party, my right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio, the Member for Peterborough (Dr. Mawhinney)
There has been massive investment in and reclamation of derelict land. There has been massive investment in local authority schools and grant-maintained schools, of which we have some of the best in the country. There has been investment in the city technology college and Lodge park technology school and in education and training in the Tresham institute. I was pleased to be present a few days ago at the opening of another significant expansion of its facilities, which were paid for by the public sector.
I can testify from my own experience that the picture of no public investment is completely untruthful. One could take the matter even further, but I should like to deal with two items of legislation in the Gracious Speech, one of which has been commented upon and the other has not. They are the proposals for legislation about MI5 and for reform of our divorce laws.
I shall deal first with our divorce laws. I rather regret the fact that we need any divorce laws at all, but, man being a fallen person, the reality is that the law needs to
be reformed. When I studied law quite a long time ago, the existing divorce law was going through the House. Part of my university course entailed reading and studying what was being said in the House at that time about the proposals that led to the Matrimonial Proceedings and Property Act 1970, the Wilson Act, which has formed the basis of our divorce law ever since.
One of the interesting facets of the 1970 Act was that, to all intents and purposes, it was sponsored by the Church of England. It followed a report called "Putting Asunder", that had been commissioned by Archbishop Michael Ramsey. It formed the basis of the legislation which Mr. William Wilson, who at that time was the Member for Coventry, South, had proposed. Therefore, I read with amusement and some interest Church criticisms of the operation of legislation which it had the primary responsibility for promoting in the first place.
There was substantial discussion before the 1970 Act was passed. I vividly remember the doughty work carried out by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Dame J. Knight) in opposing that reform. She made a number of predictions, all of which have been fulfilled, about what would happen, because there is a deep truth about the way in which one can draw any divorce laws.
It is that, broadly speaking, however the law is written, one third of people will find it a perfect fit, one third will find it rough justice with which they can live although around the edges there are problems, and one third find it completely unacceptable. All that happens when the law is changed is that people are shifted from one category to another.
8.20 pm
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