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7.45 pm
Mr. Forth: With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I welcome the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Byers) to the Dispatch Box, in his first contribution to these matters. I hope that he and I will be exchanging views for a long time to come--in our present capacities, of course.
The hon. Member for Oldham, Central and Royton (Mr. Davies) said that he thought that the chairman of the Conservative party had revealed that our legislative programme this year was designed to smoke out the Opposition. If that is true, I am afraid that the debate has failed to do anything of the sort. It became increasingly obvious throughout the debate, in all the speeches of Labour Members, that we would be told nothing about what the Labour party would do in this crucial area of policy. It is not good enough for Labour Members to make the sort of comments and accusations that they did about the Bill and higher education policy generally when they have not a single policy idea on how they would conduct such a crucial area of education.
We still do not know, even after the debate, whether the Labour party approves of loans as a matter of principle to supplement grant. We do not know whether it would continue with loans or whether it would abolish them and return to grants. We do not even know something as basic as that. We do not know in detail what it would do with a loans scheme. We do not know its attitude towards the participation of the banks. Some Labour Members seem to be afraid that the banks will participate, while others deride the scheme and allege that the banks would not touch it with a bargepole. They cannot have it both ways. They either fear that the banks will participate or they are
confident that they will not. It should be one or the other, not both. There was a very mixed message throughout the debate.
What I want to know--and I am still waiting--is whether the Labour party, as a matter of policy, would abolish loans and return to grants. What would it do about the benefits that some Labour Members say are being denied to students? Would it restore those benefits? We did not hear anything about that. We heard no undertakings about part-time and further education students, despite the fact that some Labour Members tried to make great play of the fact that some of those students were disadvantaged. Unless the Labour party is prepared to tell us what it would do, its criticism is of no import or substance. Labour Members did not say what they would do about lower-income students or alleged student poverty.
There was a hint from some Opposition Members--I think even from the hon. Member for Wallsend, and certainly from the hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Mr. Worthingon)--that they regard the Student Loans Company as a job scheme for the people employed in it. Whatever else we are doing, we certainly are not designing the Bill simply to run down the Student Loans Company as a matter of policy. I tried to explain that the Student Loans Company will continue to exist and that its existence is an integral part of the whole thrust and philosophy of the Bill. To the extent to which the opportunities open to the banks were taken up, there would have to be some reduction in the number of people employed at the Student Loans Company, but the reduction would be gradual and would take place over a period of time. It would certainly always leave the Student Loans Company as a major provider of loans to students. That has been made perfectly clear.
I think that we must conclude that Labour Members have not yet had permission from the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) to say anything whatsoever about education policy, higher education policy, student funding or anything else of the kind. We will have to adjust their criticisms accordingly.
I should like to give credit where credit is due. The hon. Member for Wallsend said at the beginning of his speech--this gave us some idea of the problem that he and his colleagues have--that, in this sphere, there are no easy answers and a number of difficult questions. That must certainly be so because he and his colleagues have come up with no answers at all--easy or difficult.
Mr. Blunkett:
When will the Minister answer some of the difficult questions that we have put to him?
Mr. Forth:
I do not know what the hon. Gentleman categorises as difficult questions. Labour Members have made a number of allegations, one of which was that the drop-out rate is increasing. I know of no evidence to support that allegation because, broadly speaking, the drop-out rate, which is difficult to define satisfactorily, has remained fairly constant. It has fluctuated somewhat over a number of years but has remained fairly constant for a long time. Indeed, it is very much lower in this country than in most of the comparable countries with which we compete.
Labour Members frequently made that point. They also made allegations about student poverty. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe) made that allegation on the basis of conversations that she had had with a branch of the citizens advice bureau.
Mrs. Fyfe:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Forth:
I shall give way in a moment. I yield to none in my admiration for much of the work done by many of the people who work in the citizens advice bureaux, but I do not think it is wise to generalise on the basis of a very small and self-selecting sample of students who felt unable to deal with their financial circumstances, for whatever reason, and state that somehow all students are suffering from poverty.
Mrs. Fyfe:
The Minister must avoid deliberately misunderstanding what I said. The Scottish CAB produced a report in August because it was concerned about the scale of student poverty in Scotland. It was not dreaming; it was not making it up; and it was not drawing on just a few examples. Poverty was widespread enough for it to feel that it had to produce a report on it. Is the Minister accusing it of dreaming or lying?
Mr. Forth:
I am accusing it of nothing; I am simply saying that the hon. Lady is generalising from a very narrow sample. I have yet to hear a policy response from the Opposition to what they believe to be the problem of student poverty. I do not accept the accusation that there is student poverty, but some Labour Members believe it exists so I am waiting for them to say what they would do about it, were they ever to form a Government.
Another source of schizophrenia among Labour Members was the Student Loans Company. I am aware of the criticisms of the company made by the National Audit Office but I am also aware of, and pay tribute to, the substantial improvements in its performance. I was happy to hear the hon. Member for Wallsend say that the Student Loans Company is now on the right track--I think that they were his words--but his colleagues do not seem aware of that fact. They seem to be stuck in the circumstances of a year ago and have completely ignored the progress that has been made. Labour Members must be clear among themselves: has the Student Loans Company made significant progress and sorted out its problems of a year ago, or are they are stuck in a groove and unable to acknowledge the company's improvements?
Mr. Bryan Davies:
The Minister will recall that one of the main points of the debate has been to ask him whether, under the Bill, there is to be any extension of the category of students who might benefit from access to loans. Particular reference was made to part-time students. He was directly asked such questions several times: will he answer them?
Mr. Forth:
Yes, I shall. The Bill is not designed to alter the qualifications for or the rights to student finance. It was designed to increase the choice of sources of finance to those who currently qualify. Labour Members have made terribly heavy weather of that question and have not answered it themselves. I have made the position perfectly clear--it was not the intention behind the Bill-- but I am waiting for the hon. Member for Oldham, Central and Royton or any of his colleagues to answer the question that they have asked.
Mr. Robert Jackson:
I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will in due course extend access to loans to students on part-time courses. Meanwhile, has he taken note of the fact that the Opposition regard it as a benefit that should be extended?
Mr. Forth:
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That illustrates yet again the utter confusion among Opposition Members, who have no clear policy on the matter and no conception of what to do in this sphere. That is the one thing that has been achieved in their contributions to the debate.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr. Jackson) who has, typically, thought through these issues clearly and carefully and made his usual well-thought-out contribution to the debate. He will understand that I cannot give a detailed response to the points that he made, but I shall certainly want to examine them carefully and consider whether they can inform the development of future policy. I hope that when we produce our further consultation paper on higher education early in the new year, my hon. Friend will reply to it. I suspect, however, that he could do no better than send a copy of the well-thought-out and worthwhile speech that he made today.
I was told several times that our policy had somehow led to a reduction in the number of students from less well-off families entering higher education. That is simply not so. The latest survey information available to me suggests that while the younger students entering higher education from less well-off backgrounds were in the minority in 1988, they are in the majority now. Our figures show that the number of students from social classes 4 and 5 accepted for undergraduate courses rose by more than 50 per cent. in just three years between 1991 and 1994. Therefore, the loose accusation repeated by the Opposition--that our regime of balancing grants and loans has disadvantaged students from lower-income families--is not true. There is no evidence to support such an allegation.
The hon. Member for West Lancashire (Mr. Pickthall) asked about direct debits. I can confirm that a student who borrowed from more than one loan provider would indeed have more than one direct debit. That is logical. The banks may assign or sell on debts, and any information available on those who have taken out such loans would, as in the normal way, be made available. I cannot for the life of me see why not; it is a perfectly normal part of the general lending regime.
This debate has been about a Bill designed to broaden the choice available to students--to set them free from the current public sector monopoly provider and to introduce important choice and new players to the market. We are in the early stages of our deliberations, but eventually this enabling Bill will allow us to carry forward an important development in policy and to seek to provide a much wider choice of loans to students. It is a sensible and modest measure, thoroughly consistent with the direction of our policies in the past, and I commend it to the House.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:--
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