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Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton): Is that it?
Madam Speaker: Order. The House must come to order. [Interruption.] If hon. Members seek to ask questions later, they had better come to order now.
Mr. Forsyth: The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) knew precisely what I intended to say, because I gave him a copy of my statement in advance. He knew exactly what was being proposed, which is why his laughter was not quite co-ordinated with the statement.
To sum up, the changes that I propose will greatly strengthen the role of the Scottish Grand Committee in considering legislation affecting Scotland, and will provide for an expanded Scottish legislative programme that will be examined in Scotland in ways that should produce better legislation, and involve the people of Scotland.
The proposals will provide a new focus for the role of the Scottish Grand Committee in scrutinising and calling to account not just Scottish Office Ministers but every Minister. The Scottish Grand Committee will thus assume an increasingly pivotal role in the parliamentary government of Scotland, in bringing Government closer to the people, and in underpinning the Union.
What the people of Scotland want is Government close to them, Government listening to them, and above all, Government accountable to them. This historic Parliament embodies our great Union. It is the only Parliament that can effectively and powerfully secure Scotland's interests and future.
The changes represent a significant step forward. They must be seen in the context of our plans to devolve power to local government, to create a new forum based on the Scottish Economic Council, and to give the people of Scotland more control over their own lives. The Government stand four-square behind the Union, and thereby behind Scotland and her people. I commend the proposals to the House.
Mr. George Robertson:
The statement was a stark admission that the Government's policies towards Scotland have utterly failed. The whole speech was a confession that, for the past 16 years, the Conservative
"Taking Stock"; now we have taking the michael.
Did that statement really represent the full breadth of the Secretary of State's vision for his country? New Forsyth, new status quo? Is that the Secretary of State's really big idea--weekend breaks and awayday trips for the Cabinet, from the grouse moor to the Grand Committee? Will the Secretary of State confirm that that was really his best shot, and that after all the hype, the build-up and the publicity, it is the best that he could come up with?
The Secretary of State told the press the other day that, when he drew up the changes, he had started with a blank sheet of paper. Obviously he did not get much further than that, because today's long-awaited package is even more of a let-down than the new Beatles single.
Will the right hon. Gentleman admit that his revamped Scottish Grand Committee will be little more than a rubber stamp for non-controversial legislation? In that case, what has really changed? The Scottish Grand Committee can already deal with non-controversial legislation, as it did last Session with the Children (Scotland) Act 1995. We facilitated that Act's passage on to the statute book. Indeed, the Secretary of State can always expect co-operation from Opposition Members where consensus exists.
I ask the right hon. Gentleman again: what has really changed, other than the fact that there will be an extra stage for Scottish Bills and a few more meetings, debates and opportunities to hear Ministers and their reinforcements desperately recruited from the Cabinet dodge even more difficult questions?
My hon. Friends and I welcome the opportunity of more debates with the Secretary of State and his colleagues. I look forward to exposing the Government's betrayal of Scotland, wherever the debates take place. Does the Secretary of State not realise that this travelling circus is no substitute at all for a Scottish Parliament, elected by, and responsible to, the Scottish people?
Is it not true that the proposals will mean that not a single extra decision will be taken by Scotland's Members of Parliament, and that the so-called new Scottish Grand Committee will continue to be no more than a toothless talking shop, with no real powers to change Scotland for the better?
To get down to the specifics of the statement, what about the Third Readings in the Scottish Grand Committee? Will the Secretary of State confirm that decisions on Second and Third Readings taken in the Grand Committee will not stand, but that they will simply be on procedural motions that can be overturned by a Tory majority on the Floor of the House?
Since that is the case, will that not be yet another worthless trick, offering nothing beyond the present position, in which no real decisions can be taken in this tarted-up Scottish Grand Committee?
I should like to put the real acid test to the Secretary of State. Will the Scottish Grand Committee decide on the issue of nursery vouchers for Scotland, as was promised in the Scottish Office press notice which described his education Bill in the Queen's Speech? Or is he simply
going to sneak through this unpopular, unwanted intrusion into Scotland's education system by some statutory instrument or by adding it to the English Bill?
I tell the Secretary of State this: if Scotland's representatives will not be able to make decisions on such legislation, his reforms will be simply worthless. The people of Scotland are not going to be bought off with a few more powers for local government, a few more debates in the Grand Committee, or some beefed-up old quango. That is not real devolution: it is simply a con trick--nothing more and nothing less.
The unity of this country, which we value as much as any Conservative, will never be guaranteed by cosmetic, panic-driven gimmicks that arrogantly insult the intelligence of the Scottish people. The people of Scotland want a Scottish Parliament, and nothing less will do. Only a Labour Government will deliver that to them.
Mr. Forsyth:
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman cleared his lines with the right hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair). Is he advancing a proposition that a Scottish Grand Committee should be able to pass legislation without the approval of this House, which is what it sounded like he was saying? Is that his position?
The hon. Gentleman was implying that that was his position.
Can we take it, then, that it is the Labour party's position that, under a Labour Government, an English Grand Committee, for which there are provisions in our Standing Orders, would be able to pass legislation without the consent of this House? The hon. Member for Hamilton is nodding his head in agreement. I had no idea that he had jumped so far into the nationalist camp. He is supposed to be a Unionist politician. He speaks the language and the policies of nationalists.
We Unionists believe in the sovereignty of this House. The proposals that we have put forward are to strengthen the Union, to hold Ministers who are accountable to the House accountable within Scotland.
The hon. Member for Hamilton asked how accountability will be strengthened. If he thinks that senior Ministers having to go to Scotland to debate issues will not result in their Departments having to wake up rather more to the Scottish dimension, he has even less experience and understanding of government than I imagined.
I ask the hon. Member for Hamilton to solve this puzzle: why is he so opposed to the proposals? Imagine for a moment--it is a big thought; an impossible thought--a Labour Government and their having a majority in the Grand Committee with its proposed powers. They could take legislation through the Grand Committee, through all its stages. They could win votes, because they would have a majority. Indeed, they could do everything in the Grand Committee that they could in a Scottish Parliament, and more. The only thing that they would not be able to do is raise taxes in Scotland, and make the Scots pay a tartan tax. In addition, they could hold the Prime Minister to account.
Writing in the Evening Times, the Leader of the Opposition was quoted as saying:
Mr. Allan Stewart (Eastwood):
May I congratulate my right hon. Friend first on his practical and innovative Unionist package, and secondly on smoking out the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) as the crypto-nationalist we always thought he was?
"I look forward to the day when, as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, I will be able to visit a Scottish Parliament working to improve life for the people of Scotland".
Our proposals mean that the Prime Minister will not visit a Scottish Parliament--he will go to Parliament in Scotland and will be held to account by this House.
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