| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Forsyth: I shall bear in mind my hon. Friend's bid. I hope that towns and cities with suitable premises with which the House authorities are satisfied will bid for the Grand Committee to come into their communities. I am sure that that would be a desirable step forward. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. All that the Scottish Parliament will be able to do is raise income tax by 3p in the pound and make the people of Scotland pay more tax than that paid in England--and in Wales, because Labour's proposals for a Welsh Assembly do not include tax-raising powers. We have to have a tartan tax, but no Taffy tax, which seems to be deeply unjust.
Of course a Scottish Parliament will not be able to decide the level of the Scottish Office budget. That will be decided here in Westminster. Indeed, hon. Members on the Liberal Bench have already conceded that we would have fewer Scottish Members of Parliament and no Secretary of State. So who will speak for Scotland when the money is decided?
Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland):
People in Scotland, and, indeed, the Secretary of State's fellow Cabinet members, will notice that, a few moments ago, the right hon. Gentleman conceded that many UK Departments were not fully awake to the needs of Scotland when dealing with legislation.
Will the Secretary of State confirm that, when the Prime Minister was on his soapbox before the election defending the Union, he had in mind that to do so would require an awayday ticket to attend meetings of the Scottish Grand Committee in Scotland? Will he answer the question that he has already been asked: whether education vouchers policy will be subject not only to the Scottish Grand Committee's deliberations but to a vote?
The Secretary of State has said that Ministers will be able to go to Scotland to present policies and react to criticisms of them. Will he confirm that there is nothing in his proposals that says that Ministers will change those policies in the light of Scottish opinion?
Mr. Forsyth:
Of course we will take account of Scottish opinion. I am quite prepared to discuss through the usual channels which Bills have their Second Reading
Mrs. Helen Liddell (Monklands, East):
Is it to be a statutory instrument?
Mr. Forsyth:
The hon. Lady asks from a sedentary position whether it is a statutory instrument. The answer is no. In fact, we do not require legislative powers at the present time in order to pay grants directly to parents. But we will make provision in the legislation, and when it is published, Members will be able to discuss it. We can discuss whether that can be dealt with through the Scottish Grand Committee.
I would certainly welcome the opportunity of scrutiny in Scotland, so that every parent with pre-school children would know that dogma dictates that Labour Members do not want them to get £1,100 in vouchers to choose the nurseries of their choice; that they, the socialists on the Opposition Benches, would much rather decide for parents what is good for their children.
Sir Hector Monro (Dumfries):
I have attended Scottish Grand Committees for many years under many Governments. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is good news that we will have real purpose in the future, and that our opportunity to consider legislation and to cross-examine will be extended? Does he agree that attendance by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and other Cabinet Ministers in Scotland for cross-examination will enhance the reputation of the Scottish Grand Committee? Does he agree that that is in stark contrast to the proposals of the Labour and Liberal parties for an assembly in which there will be no Secretary of State for Scotland and no one to look after our interests in the Cabinet?
Mr. Forsyth:
I agree with my right hon. Friend: he is right. The Scottish Grand Committee is not a Scottish Parliament. It cannot impose tax on the Scots over and above what people pay in England. It is not a Parliament that would mean that people were taxed more because they worked in Scotland than people in any other part of the United Kingdom. It has none of those powers. I make no apology for that. As my right hon. Friend points out, our proposals strengthen the Union, strengthen the accountability of Ministers for what they do in Scotland, and take Parliament to the Scottish people. They are a step forward.
Although I appreciate that our proposals do not do the damage that they want to do to Scotland's interests, I should have thought that Opposition Members would at least welcome them as a step forward. It shows how lacking in confidence they are that they do not welcome the opportunity to call the Government to account in Scotland.
Mr. John Maxton (Glasgow, Cathcart):
Madam Speaker, have you noticed how touchy and tetchy the Secretary of State has been in presenting his statement today? Is it not clear--it is certainly clear to all of us on the Opposition Benches and I am sure it is clear to the people of Scotland--that the Secretary of State decided
All that the right hon. Gentleman could come up with was a ragbag of nothing. Was he not equally aware that the people of Scotland wanted a Government nearer to them and more accountable to them, but, above all, on matters relating to Scotland and within the framework of the Union, a Government elected by them? Until we deliver that, the Scottish people will not be satisfied.
Mr. Forsyth:
A Scottish Parliament with a Government elected by the Scottish people is what the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) wants. If the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) agrees with that, he should join the Scottish National party. If he is a Unionist, he believes in the Union and the sovereignty of this Parliament. The fact is that he is so damn scared of the nationalists that he is prepared to say almost anything and put at risk our ability to get a good deal for Scotland and ensure that it has a strong voice which is heard in Government. That is what our proposals will achieve.
Mr. David Harris (St. Ives):
Government spending in Scotland is 21 per cent. higher than in England. There is massive over-representation of Scotland in this House. Does my right hon. Friend accept that most people in England, particularly in the south-west of England, believe, with justification, that Scotland gets an incredibly good deal from the Government and from the Union?
Given those facts, can he understand the pathetic response of Opposition Members to his statement, which clearly strengthens the position of Scotland in the House and in the Union?
Mr. Forsyth:
I do not want to alarm my hon. Friend, but the hon. Member for Hamilton has gone round Scotland telling people that the tartan tax might be used to cut taxation. The proposition that he has put to the people of Scotland--we do not hear Labour Members saying it here--is that my hon. Friend will continue to vote 21 per cent. more per head than he votes for his own constituency to a Scottish Parliament and will sit back and watch the Scottish Parliament hand out tax rebates.
If that was not so serious, it would be laughable. The hon. Member for Hamilton is trying to have his cake and eat it. I am afraid that the people of Scotland will lose out if Labour's proposals are ever shown the light of day. It is simply not sustainable to have a Scottish Parliament sitting in Edinburgh the budget of which is determined down here and which is able, even if it raises taxes of 3p in the pound, to raise only 3 per cent. of its revenue. That would be an unstable Parliament, and one doomed to disaster. The most vulnerable people in Scotland would suffer as a result.
Mr. Sam Galbraith (Strathkelvin and Bearsden):
Does not the Secretary of State realise that, while much of what he said about the Children (Scotland) Bill was true, the crux came in Committee when there were controversial issues? The Committee always split along party lines, and the Scottish vote always lost. Does he not realise, therefore, that the real test of his proposal will be whether the Scottish vote in Committee counts, and that the only way to make it count is to hold the Committee stage of consideration of Bills in the Grand Committee? If that is
Mr. Forsyth:
That is a point of view, but it is not a point of view with which I agree. If the hon. Gentleman's position is that the Scottish vote should prevail in determining what happens in Scotland, what would he say to those of my hon. Friends who would say that, in that case, the English vote should prevail in England? [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] We have the federalists and the separatists shouting out. That is certainly not a Unionist position. The hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) is an intelligent and thinking Member of Parliament. He should think about how far he is running away from the Unionism upon which the future of our country depends.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |