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Mr. Shore: We all welcome the four weeks' notice of any Commission proposal before it is debated as it allows the House to deal with it. Another proposal that could be valuable in the same direction appeared in a recent Select Committee report from the other place, which was published on 3 November and which related to the third pillar. There was a general feeling that far too many decisions could be made in the House of Lords without adequate discussion in this House. The Select Committee recommended that a Council decision on a third pillar instrument should be invalidated unless the national parliament of each member state had been offered, in accordance with the procedures applicable in each member state, an opportunity to express its view. That procedure would make a valuable addition. What does the Minister think?
Mr. Davis: We are reviewing some of the proposals of the Scrutiny Committee and Foreign Affairs Committee, and of the Select Committee in the other place. It is a complex area and we must devise proposals that work for every Parliament in Europe. We know only too well how getting that wrong could have perverse effects. We have been considering the issues for some months but because they are complex and the effects in different constitutional arrangements are difficult to predict, we are taking time to reach a conclusion.
The appearance of isolation is not always what it seems. I will give an example. We were the only member state opposed in principle to the extension of qualified majority voting. If one looks closer at the report, one sees that some people link their support for more QMV to the reweighting of votes between smaller and larger states. That is not an enthusiasm for more qualified majority
voting but a negotiating stance or linkage, prior to the intergovernmental conference. I do not want to be drawn in to debating our negotiating tactics but, in my judgment, the situation will change over the year, with different states taking different stances to achieve what they want.
Even people who appear to support more QMV in principle often have trouble with the practical implications. I draw the attention of the House to paragraph 65 of the report. Behind all the jargon lies the point that some member states do not wish to abandon the remaining unanimity requirements in certain areas, unless another member state is willing to pay for the consequences. That will not come easily. I highlight that so that the House will understand that the issue is not so clear-cut as perhaps the British press and the press elsewhere made it appear. Even if the United Kingdom were to withdraw from the debate, which I can assure the House it will not, the remaining member states would find it rather difficult to square their differences in some instances.
It is not Britain's occasional isolationism that undermines its national interests. On the contrary, we have achieved much in the past precisely because we have been willing to be isolated. It is not merely being tough-minded in our tactics. In the past, we have secured vital opt-outs by being willing to be isolated. The hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) did not comment on whether he thought the opt-out that we obtained on the single currency was good or bad when he was asked about that.
Our national interest would be undermined, however, by Labour's socialist surrenders to Brussels. It has said as much itself in terms of surrendering the veto on social, industrial, regional and environmental policies. It would surrender our hard-fought social chapter opt-out and any permanent opt-outs. Such action would undermine Britain's sovereignty in what I consider to be supine acquiescence to creeping federalism.
It is not difficult to see the consequences. It is difficult, however, to understand why Labour pursues such a line. Perhaps the leader of the Labour party feels that his party would win some credit by adopting such a policy and not letting Britain become isolated. I do not think so. Perhaps he feels that he would be seen as more communautaire.
It is a policy born solely of ignorance. If even one member of the Opposition Front Bench had served on the Council of Ministers, he or she would know that no other nation in Europe fears being isolated when its national interest is at stake. Do Labour Members think that France would hesitate? Do they think that Spain would? Do they believe that any member state would surrender its policy through fear of being in a minority?
Labour's policy of compliance would purchase nothing but it could cost everything. No wonder some federalists in Europe are hoping for a Labour Government. Such an Administration would lead to the most foolish and pointless surrender that it is possible to imagine.
Labour would like to cover up its weaknesses. We know that only a few weeks ago its leader told the CBI that a Labour Government would merely pick and choose those elements of the social chapter that were good for Britain. As most of the social chapter is decided by
qualified majority voting and as those parts that are not now would be if Labour had its way, the leader of the Labour party would not have any choice.
That point was made clearly by Adair Turner, the director general of the CBI, who was speaking only last weekend. He said:
There are implications. Several hon. Members, however, have tried to suggest that the social chapter is not especially important or serious. When we fought and won our opt-out of the social chapter, Jacques Delors did not like it. I think that he said that it would make Britain a paradise for investment. He was right. Many of his fellow travellers in Europe recognised that he was right. They knew that Britain had already won far more than its share of inward investment in Europe. They knew that the more that they increased the burden of the social chapter the more advantage we would have. As a result, they became much more cautious about using it. They tried to put some of their proposed legislation into other articles, including health and safety. Other proposals have been held back, at least for the moment.
Again, I refer to the director general of the CBI, speaking only last weekend:
One effect of the opt-out has been to limit the growth of the social chapter, or to curb the enthusiasm of the social engineers. But if the opt-out disappeared--if Labour destroyed it--the limits on the social chapter would disappear. Much more would go into it. That would damage not only Britain's ability but Europe's too.
The Labour leader, speaking last weekend, claimed to have a new agenda for Europe. It was, he said, enlargement, competition and CAP reform. Had he been promoting that agenda some years ago, he would, given his other views, have discovered something of an uncomfortable fact. Enlargement was, of course, already a British position, a minority position; competitiveness was already a British position, a minority position; and CAP reform was already a British position, again, a minority position. He tries to claim those positions, because he thinks that they are popular, but they are popular today only because we stood up for them yesterday.
The Labour leader has made it clear that there is no issue on which he is prepared to stand alone, and, accordingly, no President of the Commission is ever likely to say of him what Jacques Santer has said of us:
The Government have a clear vision for Europe: a Europe of effective co-operation between sovereign nations; a Europe responsive to ordinary people's concerns; and a Europe flexible enough to do its work in the most appropriate way. From that vision, we draw our
agenda for the intergovernmental conference. The Government's agenda is realistic and positive. It will serve Britain's interests and Europe's too. That last point needs emphasising.
The European debate is not a contest between the needs of the United Kingdom and the needs of Europe. Advancing the interests of the British people is not simply about saying yes or no to ideas or proposals from our partners. The Government's approach offers more: a model for Europe that can meet the different needs of all its peoples. Some members of the Union will want to co-operate more closely in some areas, and our vision recognises that. All members of the Union will want the business that they do together to be done efficiently and to good effect. Our vision encourages that.
Above all, members of the Union will have to confront the challenges that enlargement poses--the hard questions that closer monetary co-operation sets. Our approach reflects that, too. The issues are difficult, as my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Robinson) elicited only too clearly. I repeat the point that I made to him: the reason why these policy issues were not within the reflection group report was not that their importance was underestimated. They are issues to be dealt with not within the IGC but in parallel to it.
Some may prefer not to face these difficult issues today, but wishing them away is not an option. Asking the questions and finding the right answers is vital to Europe's future success. We do not shy away from the task. Indeed, we cannot afford to do so, because our national interest demands that we anticipate and confront these challenges.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Mrs. Currie) eloquently raised the challenge of European monetary union. Our caution about signing up to rigid timetables and our freedom to opt out or opt in on stage 3 of EMU has been clearly vindicated by events throughout Europe. Although he perhaps did not intend to do so, that point was reinforced firmly by the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney in an extraordinarily effective speech on this issue. Indeed, it was also reinforced by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough.
The hard questions that we have been raising all along about EMU are now becoming the currency of discussion within the European Union, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's meeting with his Italian counterpart demonstrated yesterday.
In other areas, too, the positions that we have taken seem increasingly justified. We welcome the French decision this week to draw closer to NATO. That is further confirmation that the alliance remains the bedrock of our security. The objective of European defence co-operation must be to keep the alliance strong.
The kind of union that we want to see is one in which all its members can feel comfortable and from which all its members can profit. It is a union that recognises that Europe and Europe's interests do not end at the frontiers of the 15 member states. There is a wider Europe slowly being reunited. To the north and the east there is a wider Europe of nations coming to terms with their new freedom. It is for us to ensure that they succeed in that transition. It is also for us to power the drive for global free trade that promises new prosperity for all--not least those new members.
The countries of Europe must rise to these tasks, not turning inwards, not tinkering with institutions, but looking to the world beyond. We will continue to pursue that broader vision because--
It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
"If you sign up to the social chapter you can't actually be sure that you will have your way because some directives will be covered by qualified majority voting. There is, however, a way to pick and choose, and that is available to the Labour party if it wants to have it as its policy. The way to pick and choose is actually not to sign up to the social chapter."
In effect, that is the CBI speaking in response to the speech delivered by the leader of the Labour party.
"We oppose this because of our broad belief that the continent does now have a major problem with inflexible labour markets and high social costs, and because of our fear that once we accept the social chapter there will be an ever-creeping tendency to extend its operation."
"Very often it is British initiatives that end up being Europe's mainstream policy."
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