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Lady Olga Maitland: Certainly; the hon. Lady has not said anything much.

Ms Anderson: At least I have never had my constituency party meetings picketed by members of the Tory party who hope that I will be reselected.

I shall finish by reminding the House of the former Tory public relations chief, Mr. Hugh Colver, whom the Tories would probably like to forget. As we know, he resigned because he had had enough of the Tories, and he said:


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I invite the Minister to take up the suggestion made by Brian Mackenzie, chair of the Police Superintendents Association, who said:



    This seems an eminently sensible suggestion and we hope you will feel able to work with the Opposition in developing it".
I hope that the Minister will respond to that idea.

2.12 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Timothy Kirkhope): I welcome the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Ms Anderson) to her Front-Bench responsibilities today, although I cannot say that I agree with much of what she said. In fact, I am not sure whether she said much at all.

The hon. Lady began by trying to correct us on the title of the debate, but that title is not what she said; it is "The Government's policy against crime". I am proud to have become a member of the crusading Home Office team which is determined to continue our fight against crime and the great successes that we are now having in curbing crime in this country.

It is nonsense for so many Labour Members--although perhaps I should not say "so many", because there were only one or two of them--to talk about the Government's record when they have not answered the simple questions that many hon. Members, including myself, have raised about several Acts and other legislation that they have failed to support--for no good reason, other than perhaps to give the impression that, despite what they are trying to tell us now, they are rather soft on crime. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State said at the beginning of his speech that crime is of the utmost importance to everyone. We are all potential victims of crime at any time, and we have to be ready to meet the challenge.

I was interested to hear the remarks of the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice), followed by the remarks from my hon. Friends the Members for Colchester, South and Maldon (Mr. Whittingdale) and for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland), about the causes of crime. The Labour party goes on about the causes of crime, but there are an awful lot of people in society who--for one reason or another--have problems and disadvantages from time to time, but they do not offend. Research carried out on a number of occasions--including a recent Home Office study which compared changes in reported crime rates in different police force areas with changes in unemployment rates--has found no evidence whatsoever of a relationship.

Mr. Gordon Prentice: Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Kirkhope: No, I will not give way as I have very little time. Coming from the north-east of England, I have been told on many occasions--I was not around at the time--about the history of the Jarrow march all those years ago. Those people did not resort to crime. There is no need to resort to crime, and no evidence that

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unemployment causes crime. I wish that the Labour party would stop trying to think up excuses for people who are basically bad or evil and who do commit crimes. They have to be dealt with firmly by this Government without the support of the Labour party.

I believe that our objectives for dealing with law and order are widely shared by the people of this country, and we are making steady progress towards them. Whatever the Opposition may say, recorded crime levels have fallen remarkably in recent times, but that is by no means our sole objective. We have listened to the concerns of those at the sharp end of the fight against crime and to their views on how we as a Government should respond to their concerns.

The simple fact is that we will never let up in our resolve to fight crime. Thousands of people up and down the country have from time to time their lives blighted by crime, whether a serious or petty crime. It does not have to be this way. Local communities in partnership with local police, for instance, can act to do something really positive. Indeed, many already do.

We have heard discussions in this debate about closed circuit television. I found it extraordinary--as did my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans)--that the hon. Member for Lewisham, East (Mrs. Prentice) talked about the "pennies" we have contributed to closed circuit television schemes. My hon. Friend reminded her that we have just announced that £15 million is to be spent on projects from 1996 to 1997.

Mr. Maclean: Labour used to oppose that scheme.

Mr. Kirkhope: Indeed. We have already spent £5 million in 1995, and it is not just about money from Government. In addition, funding from partnership schemes with the private sector could mean that those moneys could be tripled as we try to bring CCTV to our people.

Mrs. Bridget Prentice: Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Kirkhope: No, I will not. All that we hear from some Opposition Members--although these arguments have been to some extent stifled by the Labour leadership--are arguments about human rights and about the difficulty of installing CCTV schemes. I went to the Newcastle west end scheme recently, and I was deeply impressed by the way it is operated by the police there. As my right hon. Friend said earlier, the scheme has 16 cameras which deal with all kinds of situations. The scheme is cutting crime dramatically in percentage terms.

I want a CCTV scheme in my constituency--hint, hint--and we are going to bid for one. I am delighted that on this occasion the local authority has been kind enough to co-operate with me and with the police to try to bring this about. That is sometimes the way it ought to be. I remind the Opposition that co-operation is a two-way thing. CCTV, when properly used, can contribute to the prevention and the investigation of crime and to a reduction in the fear of crime. We have now seen that the schemes will be successful, and that is why the Government are so keen to develop CCTV.

We have heard today--it has been said many times before--that children must be taught the difference between right and wrong. I was interested to hear the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans), who has a particular way of putting

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things across. I do not think that some of the things that he was suggesting will be immediately a part of the Government's plans. However, I admire him for his attitude towards parental responsibility. There is no substitute for getting things right in the first place, which means teaching our children the importance of accepting responsibility for their own actions. If we fail to do that, can we really be surprised if they display growing disrespect for the law? Respect must also be taught in our schools, but the priority lies with parents.

I am delighted that the Government have made parents more responsible, obliging them to attend court with their children when some penalty is being considered. We should examine that approach in more detail because parents should not be able to avoid responsibility, especially for young children.

I want to say a word or two about youth crime. The best indicator of youth crime is the number of young people cautioned by the police or convicted by the courts. The figures show that young offenders account for 16 per cent. of all known offenders. Although there have been reductions in the overall number of known juvenile offenders in recent years, a small number is responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime.

The majority of juvenile offenders are cautioned by the police. Research shows that almost 50 per cent. of those are not convicted of another offence in the following two years, which is encouraging. However, for those juvenile offenders who are necessarily brought before the courts, the Government's policy is to ensure that a range of penalties is available, so that both the seriousness of the offence and the characteristics of the young offender can be taken into account.

The courts have powers to ensure that parents take responsibility for their children's offending. Not only can the courts require parents to attend court, but they can require them to pay the children's fines and they can bind over the parents to look after their children properly. I hope that the courts will use those powers as much as possible, in appropriate circumstances, and certainly more than they do at present.

The maximum sentence for detention in a young offenders institution for 15 to 17-year-olds convicted of an imprisonable offence has been doubled by the Government to two years. The courts have been given powers to detain 10 to 13-year-olds convicted of certain grave crimes for periods up to the adult maximum. As we all know, the Government are introducing new powers for the courts to deal with those persistent young offenders whom I mentioned. The new sentence of a secure training order will deal with 12 to 14-year-old persistent offenders, who can be held in security.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam asked about training centres. As she will know, we have proposed five training centres. Two are well under way, with tendering for contracts now proceeding. We have planning permission for a third. The fourth, I regret to say, has been delayed due to planning slowness by a district council in the north-east. We are looking for a fifth site. I am sure that my hon. Friend will be pleased to hear that we are making progress and, as soon as possible, the centres will be on stream and available to deal with the persistent group of young offenders who must be taken out of society for a time.

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As my right hon. Friend the Minister of State made clear at the beginning of the debate, the fall in recorded crime of 5 per cent., or 260,000 crimes, is a result from which we should all take heart. Far from being complacent about that success, as is sometimes suggested by Labour Members, the Government are determined to carry forward the measures that have been outlined and further to reduce the level of crime.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Banks) for his great support for the tougher sentencing proposals that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary wants to introduce. That sort of support is helpful in our fight against crime.

The success of the police in effectively reducing crime, especially the targeting of persistent and known offenders, has been highlighted this week by Operation Christmas Cracker. We will ensure that the police continue to receive the means necessary further to tackle crime and the criminal.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh), who noted his happiness with the new funding arrangements for the Lincolnshire police. That is symptomatic of our funding of all police forces, but I know that Lincolnshire should be particularly pleased.

The work of the police in apprehending the criminal will be reinforced by the enhanced powers given to the courts to deal with the guilty. I was privileged to have lunch with the chief constable of West Yorkshire the other day. He indicated his satisfaction with the new approach of the Government on funding and with our intentions on sentencing.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley mentioned special constables. There are now 19,630 special constables and my hon. Friend will be delighted to know that, as a result of the initiative of my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary to have far more of them, we have in the past year processed 14,000 applications for special constables. I hope that that will soon be seen to be contributing to the policing of our communities.

It is by encouraging the whole community to play its part in fighting crime that we will be able to be most decisive in our defeat of the criminal. Expansion of schemes such as neighbourhood watch, street watch and neighbourhood special constables helps local communities to find opportunities to reduce criminal activity and gain a sense of security through the visible presence of individuals looking out for their neighbours and their neighbours' property.

I shall quickly commend the real heroes. I commend Bill Prollins, our neighbourhood watch co-ordinator who lives over the road from me in the village where I reside in West Yorkshire; I commend our community constable, Maggie Peare, who does a magnificent job; and I also commend one of my neighbours who was unfortunately the victim of a crime recently. As a result of the great partnership and co-ordination in our area--and this is happening in more and more parts of the country as a result of Government initiatives--we have made sure that crime prevention has been stepped up. The perpetrators of the crime against our neighbour have been taken into custody and, we hope, will be put in prison. Constable Maggie Peare will, I hope, be commended for her work. [Interruption.] The problem is that the Opposition do not

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want to know about all that. They are not interested in the results of our policies at street level. They do not want to know about such successes. They have all the high-falutin' statistics and nonsense that the Labour party seems to produce. I congratulate those people because they are typical of all the people around the country who are involved in such schemes.

We must ensure that the largest ever fall in the number of recorded crimes, achieved over the past two years, is built upon throughout the country and not just in my street or those of my hon. Friends. The Government are intent on carrying forward a comprehensive strategy to tackle crime which will continue to focus on protecting the public and targeting the criminal.

Together with the police, the criminal justice agencies and the whole community, we will continue to ensure that the criminal is increasingly deterred and, when caught, that it is the criminal who fully pays for his crimes. Furthermore, because every crime produces at least one victim and every criminal has many victims, it is vital that the support that we are giving to victim support schemes is continued. The Government are intent on doing that.


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