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Mr. Derek Foster (Bishop Auckland): I thank the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster for his statement. I also thank the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) for ensuring, Madam Speaker, that your letter to the Leader of the House, dated 28 November, was recorded in the 11 December edition of Hansard.
Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will meet each of the House's requirements as laid down in your letter--which, as I said, is recorded in the 11 December edition of Hansard? In particular, will he delay the sell-off to enable the House authorities to complete all the preparatory work? He said in November, in a public interview, that the arrangements would be put in place only after Parliament had given its approval; will he therefore ensure that a full debate takes place, involving votes in both Houses of Parliament, before he goes any further?
Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that HMSO has operated profitably in the public sector for some time, and has met all the targets set by Government? Will he also confirm that it has served Parliament for more than 200 years, while maintaining the highest standards of confidentiality and meeting the most exacting requirements?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 95 per cent. of staff have rejected the idea of privatisation? They are proud of HMSO's achievements in the public sector, and want it to remain in that sector. Why has the right hon. Gentleman not investigated ways in which HMSO can operate in the public sector with greater commercial freedom? Is he not aware that such an option was included in the Government's Green Paper on the future of the Post Office, and was recommended by the Select Committee on Trade and Industry in its report of January 1995? Will he now refer his proposals to the new Public Service
Select Committee, so that it too can examine that option? That would give new hope to the staff of HMSO, and reassure the House authorities.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the plummeting staff morale, and the pall of insecurity that has descended on Norwich and HMSO since his announcement in September? He claims that there will be "no automatic redundancies". What does that mean, and what guarantees will he give?
Is it not a fact that this privatisation is driven not by the interests of HMSO, but by Tory dogma and the right hon. Gentleman's wish to privatise as many public services as possible before his Government are driven out by the electorate? He claims that the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981 will apply, but is not TUPE an extremely difficult and uncertain area that cannot be defined in advance? Is he certain that transferring public contracts as part of a privatisation is legal under European law?
I believed the Chancellor to be a decent man fallen among thieves, but he is doing the Deputy Prime Minister's dirty work in his last-ditch attempt to become the Leader of the Opposition. The Deputy Prime Minister says, "Lurch to the right," and the Chancellor says,
"How far?"
Will the Chancellor now bury these proposals and return to the House with a new proposal for HMSO to operate more commercially in the public sector?
Mr. Freeman:
The right hon. Gentleman asked me six questions, and I shall try to answer them briefly but properly.
First, I intend to meet all the requirements set out in Madam Speaker's letter. The vast majority of points will be dealt with by the contract that I envisage both Houses of Parliament will take out with the Stationery Office under its new ownership. There will be proper protection, but it is not a matter for me. It is for both Houses of Parliament to satisfy themselves that the requirements set out in Madam Speaker's letter are met. I remain confident that they will do so.
Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman asked whether I would delay the sell-off until all the conditions set out in Madam Speaker's letter, particularly the completion of a draft contract, are met. The answer is yes. I made it plain in my statement that it is a prerequisite that the interests and requirements of Parliament are met. We cannot and should not proceed until those requirements are legitimately met. Parliament is by far HMSO's largest customer, although HMSO also prints and publishes for the Crown and many Government Departments.
Thirdly, the right hon. Gentleman requested a full debate, with or without votes. I shall appear before the Public Service Select Committee. I am in the hands of the business managers, but am delighted to appear before any Committee and at any debate. This important matter should be taken seriously. I shall therefore answer fully and, I hope, satisfactorily in whatever forum is chosen.
Fourthly, I do not believe there to be a problem in respect of European law. That is the advice that I have received. We can go into that matter in greater detail when an opportunity presents itself.
The right hon. Gentleman's fifth and sixth points go to the heart of the matter: why are we proposing the privatisation of HMSO, given the inevitable adverse effect on the morale of those who work for the organisation? We are a conservative country and whenever change is proposed, people fear the worst. I firmly believe that, if I do nothing with HMSO, its market will contract further.
[Interruption.] Whatever the Administration--Labour, Liberal Democrat or Conservative--its market will contract. It has been contracting for a decade now. The hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Garrett) will know of the significant job losses that have occurred in the past five to 10 years. HMSO has handled them well, but as the market contracts, jobs are lost.
The prime purpose of the privatisation, therefore, is to enable HMSO, when no longer owned by the taxpayer, to compete for private sector work. The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Foster) asks why a state-owned company cannot compete for private sector work. It is not this Administration's philosophy to allow a taxpayer-owned state corporation to compete unfairly.
[Interruption.] The principle has been proven to be right, because when those companies enter the private sector-- many successful privatisations have occurred--their business tends to grow as they have access to new markets.
Mr. John Prescott (Kingston upon Hull, East):
Then change the rules.
Mr. Freeman:
It has nothing to do with the rules. It has to do with the realities of business life.
I want Her Majesty's Stationery Office to have bigger markets and to employ more people than would otherwise be the case.
The final question that the right hon. Gentleman asked me was about jobs. I firmly believe that, if I do nothing, there will be redundancies--some compulsory--at Norwich and elsewhere throughout the country. Under the proposals, if the market grows, as I believe it will, more jobs will be available--more than would otherwise have been the case.
Mr. Patrick Thompson (Norwich, North):
May I thank my right hon. Friend for the tributes that he paid to the staff at HMSO, so many of whom, as he said, work in Norwich and in the surrounding area? I am also grateful for the assurances that he gave about jobs and prospects for the future.
Will my right hon. Friend continue to consult members of staff, and everyone involved in HMSO, at every stage in future? Will he also consult especially Members of the House, many of whom, representing constituencies away from Norwich, are worried about that matter? Will he consult officials of the House, because, after all, Parliament is a key customer of HMSO?
Mr. Freeman:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I can give the assurance that I shall consult representatives of the staff. It is not possible for me to consult every member of staff, but I have been to Norwich twice, and I envisage going again, to meet the union representatives of the employees.
In my statement, I gave an additional assurance, based on the advice of our consultants, that the core of the business--the printing and publishing business--will not be broken up. I also said that we intend to offer HMSO
as a whole--not only the printing and publishing business, but the other ancillary businesses. That suggestion was made to me by representatives of the work force, and I accepted it.
Mr. John Garrett (Norwich, South):
Does the Minister realise that the proposed privatisation of that successful and profitable public enterprise is pure dogma? It is merely an item of ideology. What guarantees--and I mean guarantees--will he seek that HMSO will not be broken up? If it is broken up, large parts of it will become unviable. It undertakes not only printing and publishing; there is a very large reprographic and office supplies business, which the Minister did not even mention.
What security obligations will be placed on a private buyer? The organisation is a major security printing and publishing business, with a strong influence on national and parliamentary security. Will the Minister seek any employment guarantees from the proposed bidder? Those are essential. Nine hundred people work in HMSO in my constituency. It is probably one of the largest single employers left.
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