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Mr. Freeman: I respect the hon. Gentleman's position. After all, he represents, I dare say, the majority of the work force in Norwich. However, he needs to reflect on the central argument that I made about jobs and the marketplace in which HMSO operates. It is a serious business point, and it is the reason why we are proceeding. Perhaps, when we have a fuller debate, the hon. Gentleman might care to come to grips with that point, because it is in the best interests of his constituents.
The hon. Gentleman asked me three questions. I cannot give any guarantees, with HMSO in the public sector or in the private sector, about the shape of business in 10, 20 or 30 years' time. However, I have made it crystal clear that we shall offer the business as a whole and, in any case, not break up the printing and publishing business. The best guarantees that that will not happen lie in the drafting of the contracts, not only from the House but from the other place and from Government Departments--and I dare say, through the Office of Public Service.
We, as the customers--that is to say, the Crown and Parliament--can require the business to have a certain nature and structure. If that is not maintained, the contract may well be vitiated. It depends on the terms of the contract. Parliament is entitled to formulate its own views about the location of the press and the staff and the way in which the business is structured and organised. Therefore, Parliament will be able to control the nature of the business that supplies the products.
As to TUPE, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing my attention to what he considers to be a residual problem. I shall ensure that I am properly briefed in good time for the debate, when we shall examine the matter in detail. [Laughter.] I am trying to give a serious response
to the hon. Gentleman's point. [Interruption.] With respect, I have repeated very clearly the advice that the Department has received. I am treating the hon. Gentleman's point seriously. He has cast doubt upon the advice available to the Government, and I shall certainly reflect further upon the matter.
Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire):
Does my right hon. Friend recall that he has used the words "public service" several times this afternoon? Does he accept that there is no more important public service than delivering accurately and properly the proceedings of this place and all the activities connected with it?
Therefore, does my right hon. Friend accept that there are Conservative Members who are not necessarily excited by his proposal and who do not necessarily believe that it is in the best public interest? Will he consider the option of Parliament taking control of the affair and being responsible entirely for its own publications? It could be voted a suitable sum of money so to do. If he will not take that suggestion on board-- I hope that he does--will he at least give a complete and firm undertaking this afternoon to set up a proper Select Committee to supervise whoever produces the works?
Mr. Freeman:
I was attracted initially to the idea of separating the business. I visited the south London printing works and came to the clear conclusion that one could not separate the parliamentary from the Crown business. I am afraid that the two are inseparable in a commercial sense: the business is run as an integrated whole. Therefore, I do not believe that it is possible to have a dedicated parliamentary press, with Parliament receiving the appropriate funds directly and then negotiating for the direct control and management of the business. That would be a neat solution, but it is not a practicable one. I am happy to examine the matter again, but I do not believe that that is possible.
As to the establishment of a proper Select Committee, I have appeared before the Finance and Services Select Committee, which I understand has some responsibility for the matter. I am happy to appear before any Select Committee that the House of Commons, in its wisdom, decides is a better forum.
Mr. Nick Harvey (North Devon):
I welcome the suggestion of an early debate on the subject in the House, but do the Government intend to make available in time for that debate a draft of the contract for which the private sector will be invited to tender? Does not the Minister believe that the timetable that he has outlined is rather ambitious if the complex issues in the supply and service agreements are to be turned into a contract or series of contracts? If that cannot be achieved in the time scale that he suggests, will he give an absolute assurance that there is no need for it to be completed by any arbitrarily set date?
Mr. Freeman:
I am not setting deadlines, and you will confirm, Madam Speaker, that I gave you an assurance in that regard. Deadlines cannot apply in this case, as there is a prerequisite that Parliament be satisfied.
As to the hon. Gentleman's two specific points, I have placed in the Library the information pack comprising documents and information about HMSO, which are publicly available and which potential purchasers will wish to study. That is separate from the service
agreement, which I understand was signed yesterday with HMSO by the House authorities and authorities of the other place. It governs services that should run from 1 January. That will form the basis of a contract with a new owner of the business in due course. I have offered my Department's assistance to the House authorities in drafting that contract, but at the end of the day it is for the House to agree the details of the contract that will protect its position.
Mr. Robert G. Hughes (Harrow, West):
Does my right hon. Friend agree that a structure that was vital 200 years ago is not appropriate in today's modern world of enormously competitive multi-media and complex publishing? He is absolutely right in his statement that the new model that he has presented to the House today could be the saviour of people with high skills and great integrity, and could protect their reputation. Finally, I thank him for fulfilling my commitment to the trade unions that they would be consulted at all appropriate stages.
Mr. Freeman:
As I recall, my hon. Friend was a distinguished public service Minister responsible for HMSO. I am grateful for his support, not only in repeating the assurances that he gave, but in emphasising the ones that I have given.
Mr. Jeff Rooker (Birmingham, Perry Barr):
After the close of business on Monday evening, I visited the parliamentary press to see the production of Hansard and the Vote at first hand. After more than 20 years in the House, it was remiss of me not to have done so before. I left with the impression that, for all practical purposes, the function on the other side of the river is effectively a department of the House. It is dedicated to the vagaries, the pressures, the timetables and the ebb and flow of business in the House, in which no other commercial printer can ever be experienced.
Can the Minister name another commercial operation that is experienced in dealing with the ebb and flow of work produced by the House and the other place? Woe betide any Minister who gets rid of that service and then has to explain to the House why the Votes and Proceedings, Committee Hansard and the Order Paper are not available. It is not possible to fit in jobbing contracts on a commercial basis between bits of parliamentary work.
As the Leader of the House has left the Chamber--
[Hon. Members: "He is here."] He is here, so I suggest that, because of its unique parliamentary aspect, it should be a House of Commons matter whether the privatisation goes ahead. We want a clear, unambiguous statement that there will be a free vote on whether the parliamentary press should be privatised. Members on both sides of the House should see for themselves how the work is produced and consider the benefits and disbenefits.
It is a House of Commons matter, not an ordinary privatisation where we follow the political divide. Although there is ideological division, today's statement concerns how the House functions on behalf and to the benefit of our constituents and not for us privately. We cannot do our job--representing our constituents--if there is the slightest shadow of doubt about the supply of our necessary papers.
Mr. Freeman:
I find myself in agreement with the hon. Gentleman. However, he visited the parliamentary press
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