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Mr. Michael Stephen (Shoreham): My hon. Friend will know that defence is a matter over which the European Union has no competence. Will he confirm that the organisation and discipline of the United Kingdom's armed forces are entirely a matter for this country and this Parliament, and that no interference will be accepted from European courts on the pretext of health and safety, sex discrimination, employment or any other form of legislation?
Mr. Soames: It would not be right for me, a humble toad beneath the Government's harrow, to give such a blanket assurance. One of the many anxieties that we all labour under is the interference by the European courts in some of our judicial cases. It is devoutly hoped that this country's courts martial and judicial systems should suffer minimum interference from the European courts.
At most courts martial, there is a judge advocate. As a lawyer, he fulfils many of a judge's functions in a Crown court. He advises on the law, sums up and, in the event of a guilty finding, offers guidance on the sentencing options.
We have decided to enhance the judge advocate's role. Judge advocates will be present at all future courts martial. Unlike now, their advice on points of law will be binding on the court and they will have a vote on sentence. Also, the reasons for a sentence will be given in open court.
Not all disciplinary matters are dealt with by court martial. Fortunately, the majority are disposed of summarily, normally by the commanding officer. That is an effective way of dealing with more minor disciplinary issues quickly.
Again, we have reviewed those arrangements. We intend to extend the facility that enables defendants in certain circumstances to elect for trial by court martial. In future, defendants in all Army and Royal Air Force summary proceedings will be able to opt for a court martial.
All the changes that I have described will apply to the Army and to the RAF. They will also generally apply to the Royal Navy. However, as hon. Members will, I am sure, understand if they think about it, there are differences in the Royal Navy's discipline system, and that will affect the way in which the changes are extended to it.
I have accepted the Navy's judgment that it would not be feasible to change its present arrangements for summary trials. They already offer scope for defendants in some cases to elect for trial by court martial. The operational environment at sea, however, means that widespread use of an extended right to opt for court martial could prevent relatively minor disciplinary matters from being dealt with quickly.
Dr. John Reid (Motherwell, North):
I thank the Minister for outlining the Bill's purpose and for doing so in such short order. I shall take a little longer, but I hope that I shall not detain the House too long, because I know that everyone has much business to do.
As the Minister said, this afternoon and over the next few months we will undertake the five-yearly review of the armed forces' discipline Acts. We will not vote against the Government tonight because, in general, anyone would accept that discipline is central, and perhaps more so to the armed forces than to any other institution. As we are concerned with discipline, it is natural that, by the very nature of our investigations, we will concentrate not only on the need for discipline but on its form and its breaches in the past few years.
As we will be concerned with breaches of discipline, I should make it clear at the outset that our concentration on those aspects of service life in no way reflects on the vast majority of men and women who make up our armed forces. It is worth recalling that at a time when our men and women are being dispatched to take part in the largest peacetime operation, and certainly the largest military operation in Europe since the second world war.
Thankfully, deficiencies in discipline or breaches of it are a minority sport in the British armed forces. That is not because it is imposed on our soldiers, sailors and airmen, but because of the appreciation that the best form of discipline is self-discipline. It stems partly not only
from rules and regulations, but, as the Minister will know, from loyalty, because loyalty to one's friends, as the Minister will also know, is among the highest of virtues, although it is not always rewarded. We regard loyalty in the British armed forces, at every level from colonels-in-chief down to squaddies, as a virtue that should not be underestimated. I therefore take the early opportunity to thank the members of the British armed forces--men and women--for their discipline, courage and loyalty throughout the five years.
Discipline, good order and morale are inseparable. I make that point because the discipline that is an essential part of military life is often misunderstood by people, including some hon. Members, who are not familiar with military ethos and practice. It is not merely a matter of abstract rules and regulations inherited by tradition and imposed without rationale; it is an essential, crucial component of our armed forces' effectiveness.
That discipline serves the country well and is the fulcrum around which the efficiency of our service revolves. All other things being equal, an undisciplined or ill-disciplined force is doomed to defeat on the battlefield. It serves our military units well, as it is an integral part of esprit de corps and morale, delineating acceptable behaviour from unacceptable behaviour; and it serves our service men and women well, because disciplined practice in peacetime will minimise their personal risk in times of war. In short, from the individual to the nation, discipline saves lives.
The Minister referred to the interlapping between civilian and military law. The rule of thumb of hon. Members on, I think, both sides of the House is that, wherever possible, appropriate and practical service law should approximate to the law in civilian society. Of course, unlike some of our potential enemies, we live in a democratic society and therefore we approach military law with a conceptual framework that separates us from those who do not share our vision of civil liberties or social mores.
There is one aspect of the overlapping of military and civilian law that the Opposition do not support, and we are glad to see that the Bill does not refer to it. There have been recent reports--no more than that--that the Home Secretary intends to foist young offenders on the military. We make it plain that the armed forces neither need nor want to become the repository of the problem offenders of the penal system. Quite apart from their current obvious overstretch, it is not the job of the armed forces to be penal officers or probation officers for the Home Secretary, and we urge the Minister to resist whatever entreaties he is receiving from that quarter.
Mr. Stephen:
None of us thinks that it is desirable to mix criminals with serving soldiers, sailors and airmen, but does not the hon. Gentleman accept that young offenders might benefit from some of the outstanding leadership skills that are possessed by staff at the basic training establishments--although not, as the hon. Gentleman says, in a military environment?
D. Reid:
I have suggested that we should separate criminals from those who are at risk. Leadership qualities in the armed forces, and especially among cadets, are much under-used socially. Young people who are at risk because of social circumstances are already dealt with by challenge weekends and development in the cadets, and I should like to see that greatly extended.
However, that is quite different from using a period in the armed forces as some form of penal servitude or from using the forces as custodians of offenders. In some cases, presumably the dross of the penal system could be hived off by a Home Secretary who is so beleaguered on other fronts that he is shifting the problem towards the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, whose shoulders are broad enough to bear it. I hope that the Minister will resist those entreaties.
We welcome many of the proposed changes to courts martial, which are the major issue in the Bill. The ultimate vehicle for the imposition of disciplinary procedures in the forces is the court martial, and I suspect that consideration of its form and procedures will command by far the Committee's greatest attention. Although I welcome the proposals, we have certain reservations, which we shall detail in Committee. I shall outline some of them. The first one is general and the others are specific.
Our general reservation is that the treatment of serious court martial offences, not necessarily those that have been committed in the United Kingdom but which perhaps involve a civilian, raises a general concern. It is highlighted by the tragic case of Christina Menzies, which has already been raised in the House by the local constituency Member, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway). The case highlights the inadequacies of the present system in serving justice on more serious offences such as homicide through the court martial system.
Christina Menzies, a young girl, was the daughter of a sergeant in the British Army, and she was brutally murdered in Germany. The accused was a serving soldier in the British Army and, although the tragic young victim was a civilian, it was decided to try the accused by court martial by the British military authorities rather than by the German civil courts and investigative bodies that had begun the procedure. Therefore, it was decided that the investigation and prosecution of the case would be undertaken by British military authorities.
I make it clear that I am not in a position to make a judgment about the innocence or guilt of the accused soldier, who was acquitted by the court martial. Many people, including Christina's parents, the local Member of Parliament and the German authorities feel strongly that justice was not served by that acquittal. There are grave doubts about whether the prosecuting officer had the necessary experience for such a role, especially as the defendant was able to hire a barrister who specialised in offences such as homicide. That barrister was hired at taxpayers' expense through the legal aid system.
There were equally serious doubts about the ability to handle complicated forensic evidence. In cases where a civilian victim is involved and where the offence occurs in a modern, civilised and democratic society, why is it necessary for a military court rather than a local court to be used? Is justice served by pitting armed forces officers, who perhaps are inexperienced in matters as serious as homicide, against the best that money can buy in an experienced criminal defence counsel? The Committee will need to examine seriously that general question and it will need to try to ensure that a case such as that involving the death of Christina Menzies never happens
again. If we can achieve that, perhaps the tragic experience of that brutal murder can be put, at least in the long run, to some good purpose.
I have two or three specific points on other court martial issues. We have long made plain our view that reform of the system is overdue, particularly in terms of composition and appeals procedures. The Minister has gone some way towards doing that and we welcome that, but we have argued that it is wrong to exclude experienced warrant officers from sitting on a court martial.
A sergeant may have been hardened by battle or by military service on the streets of Northern Ireland, and may have a streetwise or barrackwise knowledge of men and women in the armed forces. He may have wisdom and knowledge that are not always immediately and spontaneously apparent in officers who have had a somewhat more sheltered background on their way to commissions, but he is excluded by our traditions and rules from sitting on a court martial.
If we wish, where practical and possible, to approximate to civilian law, we must bear in mind the primary civilian premise that a man or woman should be judged by his or her peers. In this case, not only is it practical and possible to take on experienced non-commissioned officers, but it is beneficial to justice being done and being seen to be done. We shall certainly raise that matter in Committee.
The Minister outlined the part that is played in the chain of command in the intended reforms of the courts martial system. The reforms provide only a mechanism that must be activated to ensure that members of the panel do not come from the same corps as the defendant in contentious cases. By repealing provisions that provide for an officer to confirm and revise a court martial's finding under, I think, clause 12, the Government have offered a compromise rather than a serious examination of the matter of advancing towards the principle of peer group judgment. We should recall that some 20 cases are pending in the European Court, to which the hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Stephen) referred. I doubt whether the proposals as they stand offer sufficient transparency to verify that senior officers are sufficiently independent to ensure fair treatment.
The Government will tell us, as they did five years ago, that they have surveyed opinions on courts martial, and that their last survey revealed no overwhelming demand for change. The supplementary memorandum from the Ministry of Defence and a service opinion survey about discipline in 1988 are based on 29 unfavourable comments from a total of 2,361 comments, which in turn are from a total of more than 142,000 trained strength for that year. That is hardly a scientific basis on which to approach the issue.
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