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6.43 pm
Mr. Peter Viggers (Gosport): I always enjoy the contributions by the hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George), who is right to say that the Defence Select Committee has gained much information that would be relevant to the Standing Committee on the Bill. I share the view that it would have been an interesting idea for the Select Committee to be responsible for the scrutiny of the Bill in Committee. As things are, I, like the hon. Gentleman, hope that I may be able to make a small contribution and use the information that we gathered in the Select Committee.
Those who have the privilege of serving on the Defence Select Committee know that, as we visit our armed forces, we see their courage, fitness and technical skill at all levels. Our job with the Bill is to ensure that we provide the framework within which those armed forces can operate at best efficiency.
This year's Bill is indeed substantial, and there will be significant detailed work to be done on it. In updating the Service Discipline Acts, the Standing Committee will have a duty to scrutinise the whole remit of the armed forces and to consider the overall framework within which they operate.
Several factors will inform the Committee's thinking. It will have to bear in mind the current recruitment situation. The Select Committee on Defence has taken evidence on that, and there is a recruiting problem at present, not so much in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, but certainly in the infantry branch of the Army, where there is a shortage of about 2,000 on the year's intended recruitment pattern. We must ask ourselves why.
We should also ask ourselves why, if the armed forces are really equal opportunities employers, the figures show that, on 1 September 1995, only 12.8 per cent. of those in the Navy, 3.5 per cent. of those in the Army, and 8.7 per cent. of those in the Royal Air Force, were women. Perhaps we should ask ourselves whether the whole structure of the armed forces and the discipline required within them are relevant to the problem.
Studies are now being carried out of the role of women within the armed forces, and it may emerge that appointments are made entirely on personal suitability. Perhaps, if women are fit physically, they will be able to do certain jobs, even perhaps in areas of the infantry. When the Committee considers the Bill, it will certainly examine attitudes within the armed forces, to see whether there may be disincentives to the recruitment and retention of women.
Also informing the views of the Committee will be the ethnic monitoring that has shown that, in July, only 1.4 per cent. of people in the armed forces were of black or Asian origin. If there is a recruiting problem, and if there are well-paid jobs available in the armed forces, is it right that we should have those extraordinary figures, which seem to reveal problems in recruitment and retention?
I am sure that the Committee will also bear in mind the Bett report, "Managing People in Tomorrow's Armed Forces", which deals specifically with military terms of service. We should ask ourselves about the exceptional position of those in the armed forces, which makes them subject not only to civil law but to military law and discipline. Is that requirement still necessary?
After all, there was a need for exceptional forms of law and discipline when ships were at sea, and armies away from the United Kingdom, for long periods. Then it was necessary for discipline to be both quick and effective. But perhaps that manner of carrying out service discipline is not quite so necessary or appropriate for the 21st century--that is the period towards which we are looking now. At one time, discipline needed to be speedy and decisive, but there may now be ways of getting around those original difficulties.
Are there procedures within the armed forces that were once necessary but are now redundant, or which need to be invoked only in exceptional circumstances? I share the Minister's view that procedures should be seen to be fair, but in my constituency experience, disciplinary procedures, both for service men and for civilians serving with the armed forces, often seem extremely protracted.
The Committee will need to take all those strands of thinking into account, and it should be able to call witnesses and take evidence. I believe that there has been a slight change in the procedure since I chaired such a Committee in 1985-86. At that time, we worked with a Select Committee procedure and then effectively took the Bill as a Standing Committee. I believe that now the Bill will come back before the House, where the Committee will be able to brief hon. Members.
I hope that that will be done on an all-party basis. In my experience, such Select Committees and Standing Committees work closely together on an all-party basis, and there is little cause for dissension.
I shall now flag a couple of small points that should be raised in Committee. I share the view that clause 2, which
In clause 9--similarly, this is a minor point for the Committee--I am surprised that there is no mention of DNA swabs when reference is made to taking fingerprints. I should have thought it appropriate to include that in the Bill.
Mr. Menzies Campbell (Fife, North-East):
Because of the detailed nature of the Committee proceedings that are to follow Second Reading, I, like others, feel no particular need to delay the House for long at this stage. However, there are one or two matters that I should like to take this opportunity to raise.
The Bill seeks to bring service discipline into line with the civilian justice system, and that seems to me to be entirely desirable. One must accept that service discipline imposes more burdensome obligations on members of the armed forces than if they were simply members of the public. But I believe that it is right to start from the principle that only the additional burdens that are absolutely necessary should be retained.
One particular element of service discipline marks it out from the civilian criminal system--the retention of the death penalty for certain military offences. For my part, I believe that the arguments against the death penalty are overwhelming and, on every occasion on which I have had the opportunity to do so, I have voted in accordance with that belief in the House. If those arguments are relevant and effective in relation to the civilian system of justice, I believe that they are equally effective in relation to military justice.
It is notable that the death penalty for military offences has not been invoked since 1945. In the 50 years since then, we have fought wars in Korea and in the Gulf and there have been engagements throughout the world in which British forces have been involved. If that most salutary of penalties has not been invoked for 50 years, I have to say that there are compelling reasons for saying that it should go. I am disappointed that the Bill contains no provisions to that effect.
I thought that the hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) made a good point about clause 2, which emboldened me to think that perhaps, instead of the TA, the Territorial Army, we should have the TTWA--the travel-to-work army. The hon. Gentleman did make some serious points, which I hope the Committee will consider carefully.
Service discipline--as the Minister rightly pointed out in opening the debate--has at its heart the system of courts martial. I have conducted a court martial as a civilian lawyer, and it is from that standpoint that I have given some consideration to the proposals for reform that the Bill contains. I have to say that, at first glance, they seem to me to be entirely sensible.
Any system of justice, whether civilian or military, should be seen to be fair, transparent, effective and speedy. If the proposals meet the criteria that I have just outlined, they certainly deserve support from both sides of the House. The same criteria must apply to any prosecution in courts martial, and here I share the misgivings that have been expressed by others in relation to the murder of Miss Christina Menzies. That matter has been raised in the House by the hon. Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid), and very effectively on behalf of his constituents by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galloway), who is not with us this evening. I think that that is a point which the Minister and those serving on the Committee may wish to consider in due course.
If it is the case that the accused person in a murder trial being conducted within the military system of justice is enabled in the interests of fairness and justice to have access to a civilian lawyer who is experienced and well qualified in conducting the defence in murder trials, why is there no provision so far as the prosecution is concerned for enlisting the assistance of a civilian lawyer of equal experience and aptitude to prosecute the case?
Some time ago, I myself prosecuted in murder cases in the High Court of Justiciary in Scotland. If I can be allowed a moment or two of anecdotal reflection, I must say that the first time I had to do that, I found it to be an extremely difficult and very arduous business. I do not think that I ever conducted the prosecution in any murder trial--perhaps I acted in about 40 or 50 such trials during my professional experience--without being aware of the very considerable burdens that it imposed.
If I may be excused a colloquialism, to land such a case on a serving officer who happens to be lawyer, or even on someone from the Judge Advocate's department, may be unfair. I hope very much that those with responsibility for these matters will consider whether it is practical in cases of such importance to use lawyers of sufficient experience from the Bar of Scotland, England or Northern Ireland, to ensure that the prosecution is carried out to the highest possible standards. Fairness should apply not only to the accused. It is a concept that must apply in the public interest as well.
During an exchange between the hon. Members for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) and for Motherwell, North, reference was made to the need to have a Scottish judge on what were described as Scots courts martial. Of course, a court martial is Scottish only by virtue of the location where it may be held, because a court martial is a United Kingdom process authorised by a United Kingdom statute.
"enables the armed forces to recruit personnel on local service engagements",
will cause apprehension within the Ministry of Defence police. That body has already suffered the Blelloch report and the Rucker report, and we can reasonably expect the Government to explain their position and intentions concerning the MOD police very soon.
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