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Dr. Godman: Naturally I defer to the hon. and learned Gentleman in his knowledge of these matters, but is it not the case that Scottish service men being tried by a court martial suffer certain procedural disadvantages vis-o-vis the procedures that are engaged upon in civilian criminal cases?
Mr. Campbell: The hon. Gentleman is right to this extent. If an individual is prosecuted for murder in the High Court in Scotland, that individual's trial will be conducted according to the law of Scotland and to the procedures and laws of evidence applicable in a Scottish court. An individual who, on the other hand, is prosecuted by a court martial will be subject to the system of law laid down in the statute that governs courts martial. To that extent, it could be argued that a person facing trial by court martial may enjoy less protection than he would have had if he had been prosecuted in the ordinary civilian court.
The Minister referred to clause 18 in his opening observations. I know that he, like me, will have received a letter from the chairwoman of the Equal Opportunities Commission. The letter that I received informed me that a copy had been dispatched to the Minister, and I am sure that he will give it his usual careful and courteous consideration. But in that letter--which was written in extremely reasonable and moderate terms--certain
anxieties were expressed about the precise language of clause 18. I hope that, when the Committee comes to consider the matter, careful consideration will be given to the requirement that that clause contains.
There are a number of other issues for the Committee which, to some extent, have been referred to by other hon. Members. I wish to refer to ethnic minorities, who are still inadequately represented in the armed forces. It is wrong to blame the Government or the Ministry of Defence for that. The problem is much greater and we should not simply endeavour to apportion blame across the House. It must, however, be a matter of concern for all of us with an interest in those issues that only 1.4 per cent. of the armed forces are black or Asian. We should be seeking to create circumstances in which people from all parts of society feel confident to apply for membership in any of the three armed services.
I do not wish to say much in detail in relation to the issue of homosexuality. My views on that have been put on the record in the past. I believe that it is a fundamental matter of civil rights that no person should be discriminated against by reason of sexual orientation. The service law relating to criminal matters has been brought into line with civilian law, and I hope that the House will have an opportunity at a later stage in these proceedings to express a view on the issue of administrative discharge.
There has recently been an effort to invoke the jurisdiction of the courts in England in relation to administrative discharge. In the course of that effort, although the judges held that the current policy was not unreasonable, in the sense in which lawyers use that word, at least one of the judges robustly pointed to the fact that public opinion had changed substantially.
If one is looking for parallels, one can look at the attitude that the armed services of Australia and New Zealand have taken to homosexuality. Anyone who has been in the company of the extremely fine soldiers from New Zealand who have been attached to the British infantry battalion stationed at Vitez in the former Yugoslavia will know that they are as robust and effective a unit as any that the British Army is able to produce.
In July this year, I tabled some questions about sexual harassment in the armed services. I hope that that is an issue which the Committee will feel disposed to take up. As a result of the questions and the subsequent correspondence, I discovered that the Ministry of Defence maintained no central record of claims of sexual harassment in the armed services. The Royal Navy does not hold central information about such claims; the Army maintains records only of complaints that have been referred up the chain of command since 1993; and the Royal Air Force is able to provide only the details of the cases that have been investigated by RAF police since 1989. If we are anxious to ensure that the armed services are truly equal opportunities employers, as I think the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) is, and if we envisage a far greater number of women serving in all three armed services, clearly we must have vigorous and effective policies on sexual harassment.
In relation to Greenwich, if one examines clause 26(2) or clause 26(5), one sees that the powers that have been conferred on the Secretary of State are extremely wide. He has an almost unfettered discretion. It is right to
remember that the Secretary of State is the trustee of the Royal hospital. In my judgment and, I am sure, in the judgment of many hon. Members of all parties, he has much more than an obligation to get the maximum financial return from those buildings. I do not think that it is wrong, or that it demonstrates an unwillingness to accept that things have changed, to say that public buildings of that historical and traditional importance should have a public use that will entitle the public to have regular and reasonable access to them. Any such use must surely be consistent with the history and dignity not only of the Royal Navy but of the buildings themselves.
As matters now stand, it would be possible for the Secretary of State to grant a lease to the American company that recently bought the royal train so that the company could establish its headquarters at Greenwich. Many people would find that inimical to the traditions and dignity of those buildings. The Secretary of State is asking for substantial powers in the Bill. He should appreciate that the way in which he exercises those powers will be seen by many people as an important indication of his judgment and his understanding of how deep and important are the traditions of the three services for which he now has responsibility.
Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury):
The quinquennial appearance of the Armed Forces Bill is one of the most sensible traditions of the House. I wish to add just three points to those which have already been made by hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber. Our worst legislation is always that which is rushed through in response to some public outcry, or some crisis or tragedy. Dog bites man so we end up with a Dangerous Dogs Bill. Football fans run amok so we end up with a Football Spectators Bill. There is a tragic stabbing and people clamour to add more and more to a simple measure to give modest powers to give to the police so that they can do something about the problem. We must beware of doing the same thing in this Bill, particularly on the issue of sexual orientation.
The worst possible service to the cause of those who wish to see change--I am for the status quo unless I am convinced heavily the other way--is done by the action that we saw this afternoon from the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth), who came into the Chamber late, halfway through my hon. Friend the Minister's speech, popped up, asked a question and then disappeared for the duration. The background to the matter and the understanding that is necessary if we are to take on board the depth of feeling in the armed services about the issue can be learnt from a study of the military ethos paper of January 1994.
Those of us who have not had the privilege of serving in the armed forces--now a majority of Members, I suspect, whereas perhaps 40 years ago it was the other
way round--have not understood how service people feel. I shall quote just three sentences from the document which sum up how people feel. Paragraph 7 says:
For the military clothing manufacturers, 1996 and 1997 will be good years. It is popularly believed in our constituencies that we have the police to look after us. In my constituency at present 10 police forces are operating. They are the Home Department police--the Wiltshire constabulary--the British Transport police, the Atomic Energy Authority police, the Ministry of Defence police, the Royal Air Force police, the Royal Air Force Provost security service, the Royal Military police, the Ministry of Defence guard service, the Royal Marine police and the Royal Navy regulating branch. The Bill will add two more, the Military Provost guard service and the RAF police guards. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House will find 12 police forces operating in their constituencies--not to mention the private security companies that will be part of the MOD's security arrangements under the terms proposed in the defence police and guarding structures study.
I am not opposed to that; I understand the logic of it. However, as the hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) pointed out, the MOD's police have been subject to everlasting reviews for the last decade and more, and they desperately need some stability. They expected the worst in terms of manpower cuts, and they were right to be a little worried. No doubt the Standing Committee--on which I hope I shall be fortunate enough to serve--will examine that aspect carefully.
Some years ago, in 1987, we gave a Second Reading to the Ministry of Defence Police Bill. I took a lively part in that debate, as did the hon. Member for Walsall, South. Many of the issues that were debated then have been aired again today, especially in connection with clause 2. We were surprised to discover when we debated the Ministry of Defence Police Bill in 1987 that neither House had engaged in a debate on the police since 1860, when the Bill that became the Metropolitan Police Act 1860 was debated. I therefore welcome this Bill, and the clause in it that will give us an opportunity to examine the issue again.
My main aim in listing the police forces that currently operate in my constituency was to stress the importance of underlining the primacy of Home Office forces. That point was often raised during debate on the Ministry of Defence Police Bill, in Committee and on the Floor of the House, and firm assurances were given by my hon. Friend the Minister's predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Sir A. Hamilton). There is now no doubt that Home Office chief constables have primacy throughout the United Kingdom, including within the wire of defence establishments. My right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell said in Committee:
That Bill gave rise to an important concept that I think we must consider again: the interface between the MOD police, the Home Office police and all the other police forces in operation. When a crisis necessitates calling a police force into action, the worst possible outcome is ignorance of the rules under which each force is operating--not knowing whether they are armed, and not knowing their rules of engagement.
That is not fancy; it happens. It applies to, for instance, occasions when demonstrators try to get inside the chemical and biological defence establishment in my constituency, and to other activities including terrorism. Everyone understands now that the Home Office police have primacy, but it is not clear what the pecking order is thereafter, or what happens inside the wire when the Home Office police arrive.
"The Army cannot remain wholly immune from the changes in the society it serves, and from which it recruits, but neither must it allow itself to follow trends which tend to undermine the traditional values essential to its unique responsibilities and operational role. The Army recognises that its adherence to its standards must be defended on pragmatic rather than emotional and traditional grounds. It also recognises that where reform is appropriate, this must be addressed as a matter of timely policy rather than a damage limitation exercise in the face of events."
That must be right. It is undoubtedly one of the matters that the Committee will have to consider.
"I wish that to go on the record as there should be no misunderstanding about that."--[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 12 February 1987; c. 59.]
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