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8.9 pm
Dr. Reid: With the leave of the House, I shall be brief, because I have only two things to say. First, in response to the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay), I and many hon. Members believe that it is never too late to right a wrong. When people tell me, whether it be a private or the Prime Minister, that these things are merely a matter of history, I commend to them Hegel's maxim:
- "The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only at the coming of the dusk."
The second general matter refers to the other speeches that have been made. Although there have been divisions on detail, I think that, on most of the issues--there are one or two possible exceptions--hon. Members agree in principle that advances have been made in the Government's position, whether we dispute the degree of those advances. The Minister will know that my view has not been fashionable in recent decades. We should be building towards a framework consensus on national security matters.
That view is imposed on us by circumstances as well as by its popularity in our armed forces around the country. I ask the Minister, therefore, wherever possible, to approach amendments in a consensual fashion, because he will find that our Front-Bench team is not destructive, but, I hope, constructive, and, on the odd occasion, perhaps constructive with effect.
Mr. Soames:
With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have had a valuable, constructive and useful debate. I am sure that, in its work, the Select Committee dealing with the Bill will wish to take forward the views that have been set out by right hon. and hon. Members, and take account of the many experiences that they have brought to our debate.
The hon. Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid) in an, as usual, good speech, made the most important point in relation to a Bill about service discipline: discipline,
good order and morale are inseparable. I agree with him about the cadet forces' excellence, and about the wonderful nature of challenge weekends--what a tremendous force of good they are. I hope that we will be able to do more in that sector to help young people.
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's welcome for our reforms on court martial procedures. I note his point about drugs, and I agree that it would be wrong to soften our line on drugs; indeed, there is no question of softening that line. Drug misuse in the armed forces is unacceptable. As he knows, offenders are normally discharged. We do not accept habitual drug users into the armed forces.
One-off experimenters are not automatically excluded. The cases are considered on their individual merits, but we make it clear to all recruits that drug misuse will simply not be tolerated, and can and will attract disciplinary action, including dismissal or administrative discharge from the service.
The hon. Gentleman talked about racial discrimination in recruiting. I do not accept that there is such discrimination. It is true that we must do better on recruiting in the ethnic communities, and we are committed to trying to increase that. That point was made by a number of hon. Friends and Opposition Members, especially my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers), who made his point in a powerful manner, as did the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen), who has been a powerful enemy of racism in this country and whose words therefore carry weight.
As to someone who said that I was an unenlightened Minister in the matter of women in the armed forces, that was an outrageous suggestion. There is no more enlightened Minister in the Government when it comes to women, as you know, Madam Deputy Speaker. As hon. Members know, or would know if they knew something about the armed forces, women are excluded from literally a tiny handful of roles in the armed services. They make a hugely vital contribution to the armed forces, without which those forces would not be able to operate anymore. We need to go on recruiting the high calibre of young women that we are getting into the services.
I acknowledge what someone said about physical selection of women, gender-free testing and all that. There is much more work to be done on that. By and large in the armed forces, there is tremendous commitment. Anyone who has seen these young women in all three services, who make such a formidable contribution, will know that the only thing we have to worry about is how to go on recruiting such excellent women and to develop their careers. I accept that the need will always exist to ensure that, providing they are good enough, they are promoted on the same terms as.
The hon. Member for Motherwell, North mentioned the Home Office's use of the services. I think that he was exaggerating to make a point. As he knows--I have said it before here--we are considering setting aside part of the military corrective training centre as a young offenders institute. That work, which is being conducted in a most careful and detailed way, is being considered by Ministers. We hope to come to a decision shortly.
We do not intend to anticipate that decision tonight, but I want to repeat that anything we decide involving the use of part of the MCTC will in no way ever diminish the first-rate and highly professional military training undertaken there. If it were to do so, we would stop it at once. It will not affect the military ethos of the course.
I turn to the question of pardon for soldiers executed in world war one, which was raised by the hon. Members for Motherwell, North and for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay), and I understand why the latter could not be here for the early part of the debate. For the edification of the hon. Member for Thurrock, I have read probably every book on that matter, and certainly almost all the great books about physical courage and otherwise on the battlefield. After the most detailed and careful consideration by the Prime Minister and the Ministry of Defence, it has been decided that it would be inappropriate to grant a pardon.
The people executed--some 346 men--represented 11 per cent. of the people who were condemned to death. As hon. Members know, the other sentences were commuted. A review found that there were no procedural errors or legal improprieties in the courts martial or in the subsequent reviews by the chain of command. On those grounds, there is no basis for a pardon.
As a general principle, it is inappropriate to reconsider historical events in the light of modern attitudes. Most soldiers stayed and fought in the trenches under appalling conditions, and they needed to be able to rely on their comrades. I acknowledge, however, the determination of the hon. Member for Thurrock in his campaign, and he is to be applauded for sticking to his guns.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre (Mr. Mans) made some valuable points that we noted, especially the important point about the treatment of civilians alongside military personnel. I have no doubt that the Select Committee, when it discusses these matters, will wish to deliberate on that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre, the hon. Member for Motherwell, North and the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) referred to the Christina Menzies case. That unfortunate case was thoroughly investigated by the special investigations branch of the Royal Military Police and the German civil police. The prime suspect was tried and acquitted of Christina's murder. No doubts exist about the competence either of the Royal Military Police or of the Army legal services in dealing with such serious cases. The prosecution was properly brought, and conducted by an experienced senior legal officer of Army legal services.
The service man in question was tried for and acquitted of Christina's murder trial. His trial by general court martial was properly conducted, and a "not guilty" verdict was passed.
Dr. Reid:
I should make it clear that neither I nor anyone else, as far as I know, seeks to re-run the trial. Will the Minister at least give us an undertaking that, during the Committee investigations, he will have an open mind to considering the lessons that may be drawn from that case, with a view, if necessary, to drafting, if possible, an amendment that would be acceptable not only to the MOD but to others in the House, to avoid problems that have arisen? I do not seek to attack personal competence or decide guilt or innocence. However, there are lessons to be learned, and I hope that, in Committee, the Minister will keep an open mind on these matters.
Mr. Soames:
In his distinguished career in the House, the hon. Gentleman will never come across a Minister whose mind is more open to change than mine.
Mr. John Spellar (Warley, West):
Even the Minister cannot stop himself laughing at that.
Mr. Soames:
I laughed before the hon. Gentleman.
If it is possible to do what the hon. Member for Motherwell, North requires, we shall do it, but I suspect that it is probably not possible.
The hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) who, sadly, is not able to be in his place, expressed interest in clause 2 relating to the MHSE, and the related question of military home service engagement and the Ministry of Defence police. He does not agree with the clause. The hon. Gentleman has always taken a close interest in the Ministry of Defence police, and he particularly links that to the MHSE. We recently issued a consultation document which was mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for Salisbury (Mr. Key) and for Wyre and others. We shall have to see how that consultation goes.
Clause 2 is purely an enabling clause, which will provide the services with what I hope will be a useful adjunct. As an hon. Member implied, it is certainly not intended to use local service as some kind of panacea to overcome wider recruitment difficulties. It is a totally different type of engagement, and that would not be possible. By far the vast majority of service men and women will continue to be required to serve wherever we need them, at home or overseas, in peace or in war. They could not possibly be on local service engagements, but in future there may be merit in such an arrangement.
I shall now turn to security and the Ministry of Defence police. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East, who knows a great deal about these matters, will realise that, whatever his criticisms of the Ministry of Defence, of which many are probably entirely justified, the one issue on which we are not prepared to take a short cut is on the security of our installations and our people. There is no question of our ever doing that.
The Ministry's first priority on security is to ensure the safety of our personnel and establishments and the effectiveness of our operations. Over the years, the Ministry of Defence police and others who are responsible for guarding our installations have done a first-class job.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport was right when he spoke about recruitment difficulties. We are making vigorous efforts to resolve them. He also spoke about the Bett review, which, of course, will not be a matter for the Committee, although the wonder of this procedure is that we will be able to raise almost anything, and I have no doubt that a way will be found to give Bett a good canter round the course. My hon. Friend raised a number of other important issues which we shall need to deal with.
As usual, the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East made an excellent speech. He is a lawyer, and therefore, of course, knows everything. We have to be particularly careful when dealing with matters of this type, because he knows what he is talking about.
The hon. and learned Gentleman raised the question of the death penalty. There are no proposals in the Bill to alter the powers of courts martial to pass death sentences. It is intended to retain the death penalty as a non-mandatory sentence for five offences that have been committed with an intent to assist an enemy directly or indirectly. As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, it is the policy that such offences should never be carried in peacetime. The court martial reforms in the Bill mean that there would be a new right of appeal to the courts martial appeal court against a death sentence if one were ever passed after the Bill becomes law.
The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East spoke about clause 18, relating to sex discrimination; that matter was also raised by the hon. Member for Leyton. Of course we shall give the matters they raised the most careful consideration, and I have no doubt that the Committee will wish to discuss this matter, which, for reasons of public comment and circumstances of time, is on people's minds.
There were several coloured soldiers in my regiment and I never saw any of the stuff that has been mentioned, but I am aware of public concern about it. It is easy to criticise, and that can be extremely serious for the armed forces. Ethnic minorities make a splendid contribution to our national life, and we need to get more members from those communities into the armed forces. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves) made an extremely good comment about that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury is a member of the Select Committee on Defence, and has substantial forces interests in his constituency because of its location on the edge of Salisbury plain. It is in almost the heart of the British service areas. He made a well-informed and sensible speech. I was interested in his remarks about policing, which, as one would expect, made a good deal of common sense. We look forward to seeing the arguments developed in Committee. His list of police forces in his constituency should at least ensure a low crime rate in Salisbury. If not, what on earth are those forces doing?
My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury spoke with feeling and considerable knowledge and authority, deriving from his former and happy incarnation as a Minister at the Department of National Heritage, about Greenwich. I totally agree with him on that matter. We can agree or disagree about the way in which the matter has been handled, and I am sure, with that wonderful hindsight that we are all so lucky to have, we could have handled it better. The purpose of what we now seek to do was admirably encapsulated by my hon. Friend.
As usual, the hon. Member for Leyton made a pithy and pointed speech, which was all the more impressive when we recall that, for his entire time in the House, he has had a genuine commitment to rooting out racism. I assure the hon. Gentleman that, as long as I am Minister for the Armed Forces, since before my time and into the future, the principle that the services are fully integrated and non-discriminatory will be at the front of our minds. If at any time there is a need to take action to ensure that that remains the case, the hon. Gentleman may be assured that we shall take it.
We should be happy for the hon. Gentleman to come to the Ministry of Defence to talk to us, so that we could tell him about our huge range of programmes to try to ensure that we get these matters right. He could help us by encouraging members of the ethnic communities to join the armed forces. They will find a warm welcome, and their contribution will be greatly valued, not because they are from ethnic minorities but because we need many high-quality young men and women to join the armed forces, and there are many such young people in the ethnic minorities.
The hon. Member for Leyton spoke about homosexuality, on which subject his has always been an honourable voice. As I have said, we shall present our review of our policy to the Committee as we promised, and I have no doubt that the Committee will wish to debate it at some length. The House knows the views of the Ministry of Defence, the joint chiefs, the chief of defence staff and others on these matters. All those views have been made plain, and they are not in any sense homophobic or judgmental. They have to do with military discipline and good order, and the immensely strong and genuinely held feelings of hundreds of thousands of people in the armed forces.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hall Green on his membership of the armed forces scheme. His interpretation of clause 2 is quite correct. He supported clause 27 on drug testing, and we are grateful to him for that, because he has particular knowledge in this matter and are glad to have his endorsement. We note his views on homosexuality and race.
The hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Raynsford) made a powerful speech, as one would expect. I agree that Greenwich is not only one of the great masterpieces of baroque architecture, but probably one of the greatest masterpieces of any architecture, in this country. It is perfectly true that the question of the new arrangements for Greenwich has aroused feelings going far beyond those who have served there on the naval staff college course and the generations of serving officers and men of the Royal Navy. Greenwich has been at the centre of their lives and that of the Royal Navy.
It is an institution that has, however, changed use on a number of occasions. If those marvellous buildings are to live, they must be used properly. As the hon. Member for Greenwich knows, we are proposing to grant a lease, not to sell the freehold, to those whose proposals meet our criteria and are of the greatest merit. The buildings will remain for all time Crown property, held in trust by the Secretary of State for Defence for the exclusive benefit of the Greenwich hospital.
The hon. Gentleman and I have discussed on a number of occasions why Greenwich cannot be the joint services staff college. I am sorry if he does not agree with me, but we are happy to give him any further information that he requires. Greenwich simply could not possibly accommodate that college.
We are seeking for Greenwich the most appropriate, dignified and fitting use of those wonderful buildings for the millennium and beyond. Any suggestion about a joint services staff college is not a serious contribution, and simply not even a starter. I have already said that we must seek the most appropriate, fitting and dignified use of those wonderful buildings.
It has been reassuring that, in our debate, the House has demonstrated the need for and its understanding of the reasons behind the service discipline Acts, and the system of discipline they enshrine. I do not believe that anyone here would disagree with the admiration that is generally felt for the members of the British armed forces. Wherever they go, they show immense qualities of courage, resolve, tenacity, common sense and, above all, good humour. Discipline plays a large part in instilling those qualities. We can all properly take huge pride in the armed forces.
As some 13,000 of our forces are to be deployed to Bosnia in the next few days, it is right that we should remember that it is a complete fallacy to think of service discipline as some sort of gratuitous imposition on our young men and service women. It is better to regard it rather as a framework which is absolutely vital to their safety and well-being, especially when we ask them to undertake many extremely challenging, very difficult and sometimes dangerous duties. Such duties are the hallmark of service life, for which they are admirably trained and prepared.
That is why no responsible Government of any colour will play fast and loose with the system of discipline. It is our duty to ensure that that system is effective and fair and that justice is not only done, but is seen to be done. The Bill is about achieving that end.
Question put and agreed to.
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