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Mr. Baldry: On the part of the stock that is in international waters, those negotiations will start in the new year, and obviously, we will seek to obtain the largest possible quota for the UK industry--it is as straightforward and as simple as that. One must remember, however, that a sizeable part of that stock is in Norwegian waters.
Mr. Salmond: I will take that as an indication that the Minister appreciates the importance of that stock in a circumstance where the pelagic fleet will face tough times as a result of the Norwegian negotiations.
The second precise point is on cod and haddock. From scientific evidence, it seemed to fishermen representatives that there was room for an increase in cod and haddock total allowable catches, but the TAC was restricted for cod, and there has been no increase for haddock. There is an important point here. Many of us believe that a relaxation in the TACs would result in fewer fish being caught and being discarded. Will the Minister return to that point, given that the scientific evidence does not seem to support the tough stance that the Norwegians successfully forced on the European Commission two weeks ago?
Thirdly, I want to emphasise the point about whiting made by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland. It is impossible to fathom the Commission's thinking on the whiting stock. A few years ago, it was defined as a predatory species that had to be fished down, and the minimum landing size had to be reduced so as to cut its numbers, so why is its TAC now being sharply reduced? Does the Minister intend to invoke the Hague preference to try to ensure that there will be at least some fishing opportunities in the coming year for that important stock for the Scottish industry?
I am greatly concerned about structural support for the fishing industry. In a memorable phrase, Cecil Finn of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation said that the industry was
That put our industry and our communities at a huge competitive disadvantage. It now looks as though, in both objective 1 areas, and certainly in my area of Grampian, the PESCA scheme, which was introduced to try to compensate fishing-dependent communities for the effects of the difficulties that the industry has faced over the past few years, is also being jeopardised. That is happening because of the Scottish Office's refusal to allow local authorities the additional cash required to qualify for European funding. I hope that the Minister will pick up that point, too, in his summing up.
My third key point about structural support is that it would be helpful to clarify whether the harbour scheme is back on for this year. That was not clear from the exchange between the Minister and the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris).
Mr. Baldry:
The hon. Gentleman cannot have been listening, because the rest of the House heard, and clearly understood, that I have heard and carefully considered the representations by some of my hon. Friends, and that the harbour scheme has been reinstated.
Mr. Salmond:
For Scotland too?
Mr. Salmond:
Just a nod will do.
Mr. Forsyth:
If the hon. Gentleman will give way, I shall happily answer the question.
Mr. Forsyth:
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Scottish position was that we did not follow the English on FIFG--the financial instrument of fisheries grant. But yes, the harbour scheme will be open.
Mr. Salmond:
We know about the FIFG. That is why I asked about the harbour scheme, and I thank the Minister for confirming the position there.
The question marks over structural support at this difficult time for the fishing industry, and the track record on decommissioning, represent one of the Government's great failures over the industry. But the Government have had many other failures, too. The failure on flag of convenience vessels was a policy failure, which caused the industry huge difficulties and totally wrecked any hope of reaching the multi-annual guidance programme targets. The Government's entire strategy floundered because of that decision. I served on the Committee on the Merchant Shipping Act 1988, and the Government were warned that the use of nationality as a basis might flounder in the European Court, but they went ahead just the same.
There was also a failure concerning accelerated access for the Spanish. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang) gave way to the wrong Euro-sceptic, when, earlier in the debate, the hon. Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) was about to tell us of the secret deal that resulted in the Spanish being allowed, almost unilaterally, to revise their own treaty of accession, and thus to secure accelerated access to western waters. The hon. Lady was about to reveal to the House what the Government had had in mind, and whether there had been any concession by Spain on qualified majority voting. She should have been encouraged to continue.
The Government's biggest failure has been their failure to bring about a coherent fisheries policy. Today we have heard that a review group is to meet, and is expected to report early next year. However, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation is still awaiting the formal reply to its submission of September 1993, which contained a series of suggested ways of approaching the problems of the industry.
Sir Richard Body (Holland with Boston):
My right hon. and hon. Friends in the Government can be assured that they will have a majority tonight, because members of the Labour party intend to demonstrate their support for the fishing industry by staying at home--preferring, I regret to say, a rather longer Christmas holiday than they would otherwise have.
Of course, there are some notable exceptions, such as the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell). The hon. Gentleman and I can remember when fishing was an important industry for Lincolnshire; no one can claim that it is now. Fishing is in serious decline. I believe that fewer
than 20 boats now go out of Grimsby, and in Boston we have only 40 boats in all, only a fraction of which go out at any one time.
Those who argue on behalf of the fishing industry have said again and again that the common fisheries policy will cause the total allowable catch to go down and down, because it contains no effective conservation measures. I shall draw attention to two main factors. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister of State has been considering them, and I hope that he will argue them effectively on Thursday.
The first problem is the size of nets. We are now catching immature little fish that have had too little opportunity to grow. Most of the cod we now catch are half the size that they should be. From a conservation standpoint, that is woeful.
Secondly, there are the discards; I am sure that you know all about them, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Discards are the fish that are thrown back dead into the sea, because we are not allowed to catch them. If those were only a few fish, no one would much mind, but various estimates have been made of their numbers, and the best is that discards probably account for about 1,000 million fish a year. Surely that is a crime against conservation. I hope that the Minister of State will raise that matter vigorously on Thursday, and press instead for a levy on excess catches.
Hon. Members with some part of the inshore fishing industry in their constituencies know that, as matters now stand, despite what my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath) said--I do not know where my right hon. Friend has met fishermen, but I suspect that it cannot have been in this country--no fisherman has any confidence in the future of the industry after the year 2002.
Fishermen know that, when that day comes, their existing rights will have to be renegotiated, and they have no idea where they will stand then. That has created appalling uncertainty in the fishing industry. Fishing has been largely a father-to-son affair. No father in the fishing industry with a teenage son will encourage his son to join him as he will have joined his own father years before.
Moreover, even with the old dilapidated boats that we have in Boston and elsewhere, no fisherman is going to replace his boat--partly because, in the present uncertainty, no bank will lend him the many thousands of pounds that that would cost. Indeed, hardly any fishermen I know are willing to spend large sums on maintaining their boats as they should be maintained if they are to continue fishing for a few more years.
Many inshore fishermen in their forties ask me whether it is not time to get out of fishing now, rather than wait for 2002, when they will be in their fifties and it will be far more difficult for them to find another occupation. The year 2002 may seem far away to many of us, but for people concerned with inshore fishing, it is drawing close.
"still wallowing in the broken water of the do nothing years".
He was talking about the years between 1987 and 1993, when--because of the obduracy of the then Minister of Agriculture, who set his face against decommissioning schemes because of his personal experience as a Minister in previous years--although the United Kingdom industry had 12 to 15 per cent. of the overall European fleet, it received only about 2 per cent. of the structural funding.
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